Pagan Discussion Thread

[Morr]

1. Are you talking about Tengri stuff?



2. Pagan revival hasn't actually happened in any religion except for Hellenism, though. The rest are basically LARP'ing.

1. Tengrism isn't Slavic.

2. What? That's not true at all. Mind backing up your claim, there?

Wasn't Tengri the worshiped before Saint Vladimir converted the Slavs to Christianity?

Do other pagans even offer sacrifices or libations? do Norse pagans actually hold combat in the same esteem as Norse religion did?

[The New Sea Territory]

Exactly. Christianity has almost completely obliterated the practices of my ancestors. There are so few sources, and none from the Slavs themselves.

Are you talking about Tengri stuff?

That would be the Bulgars' and the Central Asian countries' native faith. Slavic paganism in the modern day is called Rodnovery. Pre-Christian Slavs had no writing system, so very, very little of their cultural practices were recorded by Christians and other non-Slavs during the period of

Tengrism also was never stamped out.

Pagan revival hasn't actually happened in any religion except for Hellenism, though. The rest are basically LARP'ing.

Except that's bullshit. First, because not every piece of neopaganism has to be based of what the pre-Christian followers did. Secondly, because we have sources about Norse, Slavic, Egyptian, Roman and Celtic paganism. They aren't as plentiful as Hellenic sources, but they exist.

[Nature-Spirits]

1. Tengrism isn't Slavic.

2. What? That's not true at all. Mind backing up your claim, there?

1. Wasn't Tengri the worshiped before Saint Vladimir converted the Slavs to Christianity?

2. Do other pagans even offer sacrifices or libations? do Norse pagans actually hold combat in the same esteem as Norse religion did?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri

2. You're not offering any evidence that non-Hellenic reconstructionist religions are "basically LARPing".

But in any case, I'm among those who believe that religions should evolve with the needs of the people. Many of the ancient practices were tailored to a specific place in a specific time; some of those practices no longer belong in a modern world. Religions were never meant to be static.

[The New Sea Territory]

Wasn't Tengri the worshiped before Saint Vladimir converted the Slavs to Christianity?

No. "Saint" Vladimir was of the Kievan Rus. Tengrism's only place in Europe was in the First Bulgarian Empire, which controlled some southern Slavic pagans as well.

Do other pagans even offer sacrifices or libations?

Yes.

Do Norse pagans actually hold combat in the same esteem as Norse religion did?

Norse warriors held combat in esteem, just like warriors of most cultures. When your livelihood is based on it, you tend to deify it.

The actual Germanic peoples worshiped many gods not associated with war at all, like Freyr, Freyja, Njord, Baldr, Nerthus, and some gods that happened to be war-like but weren't directly associated with war, like Thor.

[Meryuma]

1. Tengrism isn't Slavic.

2. What? That's not true at all. Mind backing up your claim, there?

Wasn't Tengri the worshiped before Saint Vladimir converted the Slavs to Christianity?

Do other pagans even offer sacrifices or libations? do Norse pagans actually hold combat in the same esteem as Norse religion did?

Yes, we do give offerings of food and beverages. Most of us don't slaughter animals because we don't farm livestock in the first place. The idea that Norse paganism was all about winning glory in battle and crushing your foes is a huge oversimplification. War gods were prominent and the warrior cult was huge but most people weren't warriors and didn't want strife in their lands. They toasted til ars ok friðr - "friðr" is often translated as "peace" but "harmony" or even "solidarity" would probably convey it better. Valhalla was an honor, but Helheim wasn't a punishment.

But in any case, I'm among those who believe that religions should evolve with the needs of the people. Many of the ancient practices were tailored to a specific place in a specific time; some of those practices no longer belong in a modern world. Religions were never meant to be static.

A good example of needed reform in paganism is Aztec polytheists practicing safe self-bloodletting instead of, y'know, killing people.

[Morr]

That would be the Bulgars' and the Central Asian countries' native faith. Slavic paganism in the modern day is called Rodnovery. Pre-Christian Slavs had no writing system, so very, very little of their cultural practices were recorded by Christians and other non-Slavs during the period of

Tengrism also was never stamped out.

Well did they have some sort of morality where they valued the preservation of other cultures and beliefs?

Except that's bullshit. First, because not every piece of neopaganism has to be based of what the pre-Christian followers did. Secondly, because we have sources about Norse, Slavic, Egyptian, Roman and Celtic paganism. They aren't as plentiful as Hellenic sources, but they exist.

I know, but those sources aren't exactly religiously followed. I think the first thing that must come before all else, in sincere religion, is the value system.

[Morr]

Wasn't Tengri the worshiped before Saint Vladimir converted the Slavs to Christianity?

No. "Saint" Vladimir was of the Kievan Rus. Tengrism's only place in Europe was in the First Bulgarian Empire, which controlled some southern Slavic pagans as well.

Do other pagans even offer sacrifices or libations?

Yes.

Do Norse pagans actually hold combat in the same esteem as Norse religion did?

Norse warriors held combat in esteem, just like warriors of most cultures. When your livelihood is based on it, you tend to deify it.

The actual Germanic peoples worshiped many gods not associated with war at all, like Freyr, Freyja, Njord, Baldr, Nerthus, and some gods that happened to be war-like but weren't directly associated with war, like Thor.

But their religious system of valuation for reward in the afterlife was centered around war.

[Morr]

Yes, we do give offerings of food and beverages. Most of us don't slaughter animals because we don't farm livestock in the first place. The idea that Norse paganism was all about winning glory in battle and crushing your foes is a huge oversimplification. War gods were prominent and the warrior cult was huge but most people weren't warriors and didn't want strife in their lands. They toasted til ars ok friðr - "friðr" is often translated as "peace" but "harmony" or even "solidarity" would probably convey it better. Valhalla was an honor, but Helheim wasn't a punishment.

Don't you think your entire quest for faith is a bit perverse? The religion you're looking at was very much based on your culture and tribe, it was never intended as universal religions (pagans often in fact saw the gods as universal, but each practice of worship to them unique to each culture--the Greeks, for instance, thought the Egyptians worshiped the same gods). Christianity is explicitly different in that it was propagated from the get go as a universal religion.

I'm not saying polytheism has to be insincere, but I do think adopting a religion very oriented toward a particular culture and the community, when you aren't in it, seems inappropriate, unless you are trying to revive a culture you have roots in.

[Tafhan]

This is the standard "Yeah well Democrats do X" argument I hear from conservatives. Not buying it. When were we talking about secularism? If anything, we pagans should thank secularism for beating Christianity into a corner so that pagan revival was made possible.

Pagan revival hasn't actually happened in any religion except for Hellenism, though. The rest are basically LARP'ing.

for the European/Semetic ones, yes.

Native Americans, Yoruba, and Turkics have very successfully revived their movements.

[The State of Islam]

What's LARPing?

[Immoren]

What's LARPing?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_ac ... aying_game

[Nature-Spirits]

What's LARPing?

Live Action Roleplay. Basically, he's suggesting that adherents of most reconstructionist religions are just putting on costumes and playing games.

[The New Sea Territory]

Well did they have some sort of morality where they valued the preservation of other cultures and beliefs?

We don't know much about. Yet again, we have Christianity to thank for that.

I know, but those sources aren't exactly religiously followed. I think the first thing that must come before all else, in sincere religion, is the value system.

Because the texts aren't like the Bible.

Paganism is a religion, it's a spiritual practice. That's your fundamental misunderstanding of the entire movement. You are assuming that other belief systems share your religion's value-centered worldview. There are plenty of beliefs that put emphasis on other things.

But their religious system of valuation for reward in the afterlife was centered around war.

Wrong again. Valhalla is Odin's hall. There are other places you can go when you die.

Don't you think your entire quest for faith is a bit perverse? The religion you're looking at was very much based on your culture and tribe, it was never intended as universal religions (pagans often in fact saw the gods as universal, but each practice of worship to them unique to each culture--the Greeks, for instance, thought the Egyptians worshiped the same gods). Christianity is explicitly different in that it was propagated from the get go as a universal religion.

The "universal" nature of Christianity is what allowed it to be the justification for numerous genocides throughout history.

I'm not saying polytheism has to be insincere, but I do think adopting a religion very oriented toward a particular culture and the community, when you aren't in it, seems inappropriate, unless you are trying to revive a culture you have roots in.

Standard "cultural appropriation" nonsense.

I don't think the gods, at this point in history, are very concerned about what race or ethnicity is worshiping them.

[Transoxthraxia]

The rest are basically LARP'ing.

Mm, no.

[Noraika]

A lot of Pagan religions, to my understanding, including my own, are not as dogmatic as Christianity or other Western religions. They can, as they should, change over time in order to properly address the issues of the day. A lot of the time a good number of things are not set in place by dogma.

Tradition is still important of course, but its different from Christianities idea that change is bad.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Funny is subjective.

For instance, some people find jokes about Islam funny. I imagine you'd not appreciate them, however.

I was going to make this joke, but speaking ill of the Religion of Peace is a bannable offense on these forums.

I find that hard to believe, considering the large amount of time I've spent in the Islam thread, without having earned any negative repercussions.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Merry Yule, joyous Saturnalia, and happy Festivus to everyone here.

[Meryuma]

The actual Germanic peoples worshiped many gods not associated with war at all, like Freyr, Freyja, Njord, Baldr, Nerthus, and some gods that happened to be war-like but weren't directly associated with war, like Thor.

Freyja actually did have a war aspect; she was Chooser of the Slain along with Odin. But I fully agree with your point. There's also a lot of personified natural forces in heathenry - Night, Day, Sun, Moon etc. They don't have that many myths but they seem to have been very religiously important.

But their religious system of valuation for reward in the afterlife was centered around war.

Write on the blackboard 100 times: Valhalla is not the Norse Heaven. It is a reward of sorts, but there's nothing wrong with not going to Valhalla, nor is the average person expected to.

Don't you think your entire quest for faith is a bit perverse? The religion you're looking at was very much based on your culture and tribe, it was never intended as universal religions (pagans often in fact saw the gods as universal, but each practice of worship to them unique to each culture--the Greeks, for instance, thought the Egyptians worshiped the same gods). Christianity is explicitly different in that it was propagated from the get go as a universal religion.

Except traditional polytheistic religions tend to be fine with adopting foreign gods and concepts. That's kinda how Christian missionaries got off the ground conversion-wise. It's also a huge oversimplification to say that "pagans often in fact saw the gods as universal" - the Greeks wouldn't have adopted Isis if they thought he was already Athena or what have you to begin with. And no, I obviously don't "think my entire quest for faith is a bit perverse"; why would I be practicing if I did? If you have something hostile to say, don't passive-aggressively make it into a rhetorical question. If you can't say something forthrightly over the internet, why say it?

[Noraika]

One thing I find interesting about this thread is the lack of Eclectic and Wiccan users, at least from what I have gleaned from viewing it briefly. Typically Pagan threads tend to be very Wiccan-heavy, so it is kind of a refreshing change to see other pagans from different denominations.

[Meryuma]

One thing I find interesting about this thread is the lack of Eclectic and Wiccan users, at least from what I have gleaned from viewing it briefly. Typically Pagan threads tend to be very Wiccan-heavy, so it is kind of a refreshing change to see other pagans from different denominations.

I know right? It seems that recon/revivalist path are catching on a lot more lately. I have no problem with Wiccans (former "neo-Wiccan" myself) but it's nice to see less of a Wiccan hegemony.

[The State of Islam]

Well did they have some sort of morality where they valued the preservation of other cultures and beliefs?

We don't know much about. Yet again, we have Christianity to thank for that.

I know, but those sources aren't exactly religiously followed. I think the first thing that must come before all else, in sincere religion, is the value system.

Because the texts aren't like the Bible.

Paganism is a religion, it's a spiritual practice. That's your fundamental misunderstanding of the entire movement. You are assuming that other belief systems share your religion's value-centered worldview. There are plenty of beliefs that put emphasis on other things.

But their religious system of valuation for reward in the afterlife was centered around war.

Wrong again. Valhalla is Odin's hall. There are other places you can go when you die.

Don't you think your entire quest for faith is a bit perverse? The religion you're looking at was very much based on your culture and tribe, it was never intended as universal religions (pagans often in fact saw the gods as universal, but each practice of worship to them unique to each culture--the Greeks, for instance, thought the Egyptians worshiped the same gods). Christianity is explicitly different in that it was propagated from the get go as a universal religion.

The "universal" nature of Christianity is what allowed it to be the justification for numerous genocides throughout history.

I'm not saying polytheism has to be insincere, but I do think adopting a religion very oriented toward a particular culture and the community, when you aren't in it, seems inappropriate, unless you are trying to revive a culture you have roots in.

Standard "cultural appropriation" nonsense.

I don't think the gods, at this point in history, are very concerned about what race or ethnicity is worshiping them.

The only other place you can go that I know of is your version of hell. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Nothing about Christianity makes it any more prone than any other religion or ideology to acts of genocide. Many would see what the Vikings did in Scotland, Ireland and the North of England as genocide.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Nothing about Christianity makes it any more prone than any other religion or ideology to acts of genocide. Many would see what the Vikings did in Scotland, Ireland and the North of England as genocide.

I want a source their intention was extermination of a people group (rather than material gain), and I want a source they did it because of their faith.

[Nature-Spirits]

One thing I find interesting about this thread is the lack of Eclectic and Wiccan users, at least from what I have gleaned from viewing it briefly. Typically Pagan threads tend to be very Wiccan-heavy, so it is kind of a refreshing change to see other pagans from different denominations.

I know right? It seems that recon/revivalist path are catching on a lot more lately. I have no problem with Wiccans (former "neo-Wiccan" myself) but it's nice to see less of a Wiccan hegemony.

Indeed.

Nothing about Christianity makes it any more prone than any other religion or ideology to acts of genocide. Many would see what the Vikings did in Scotland, Ireland and the North of England as genocide.

On the contrary, I would argue that Christianity's ideology of "our way is the only right way and our goal is to 'save' as many people as possible through converting them, with force if necessary" inevitably leads to violence in the name of religion.

Not that I condemn Christians or even Christianity itself, but there are certain aspects of the Christian worldview that I rather dislike, and that's one of them.

[The Grey Wolf]

On the contrary, I would argue that Christianity's ideology of "our way is the only right way and our goal is to 'save' as many people as possible through converting them, with force if necessary" inevitably leads to violence in the name of religion.

Not necessarily, especially with the concept of "Those that live by the sword will die by the sword." Christ sent his apostles out to proselytize and not to conquer. To be honest, the criticism of Christianity's perception of itself as the "only right religion," has always struck me as a bit silly. Almost all religions have this idea about themselves.

[Transoxthraxia]

On the contrary, I would argue that Christianity's ideology of "our way is the only right way and our goal is to 'save' as many people as possible through converting them, with force if necessary" inevitably leads to violence in the name of religion.

Not necessarily, especially with the concept of "Those that live by the sword will die by the sword." Christ sent his apostles out to proselytize and not to conquer. To be honest, the criticism of Christianity's perception of itself as the "only right religion," has always struck me as a bit silly. Almost all religions have this idea about themselves.

Except then they took up the sword and began conquering those that wouldn't listen to their words. During the Northern Crusades, Christian crusaders committed acts of genocide on Latvian, Lithuanian, and Old Prussian populations that refused to convert to Christianity.

If that's not the doctrine of "the only right religion", I don't know what is.