Should we ban the impovershed from having children?

[Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere]

No, but I would consider an education program. A government shouldn't collectively force its citizens to do anything.

[Immoren]

Buying someone a car two years ahead before they are allowed a drive?
What a decadence!

many places allow you to drive when you are 16 and in those states that don't he can drive it around the estate...or if they are VERY good parents they will let him drive wherever he wants and pay the legal fees when he gets caught doing it.

Buying someone a car two years ahead before they are allowed a drive?
What a decadence!

My high school had the children of wealth. First cars were very expensive. Porsche was a common brand.

I guess this is sign to take my facetiousness elsewhere.

[Ashmoria]

and all rich people are EXCELLENT parents because they can buy their kids fancy shoes and a new car on their 16th birthday.

stuff is all it takes.

My parents were bad. I had to get my own first car heap.

oh you poor thing.

its amazing that you made it to adulthood with such terrible parents.

I cant relate to places where kids are handed new cars before they are even out of highschool. any kid in my highschool who had a car had an old heap that he bought himself and probably had to fix up himself to get it into driving condition.

[Imperial Esplanade]

I believe that planned parenthood (not the organization Planned Parenthood but rather the practice) should certainly be encouraged at all levels of society, but to ban the poor from reproducing is madness. Aside from being a violation of personal liberties and being immensely expensive to enforce, such policies would spell doom for the state which depends upon the growth of the population to finance transfer payments. The situation is particularly acute when it comes to social security pensions, where declining fertility compared to a growing pool of retirees will no doubt place enormous strain on the taxpayer. This is a key reason why Germany is accepting thousands of foreign refugees at this time. In the long-run this will not save money as the OP claims.

I think a more applicable wording would be "natural family planning" than "planned parenthood."

[Shiraan]

I think it's a great idea. Damn libs in this thread have no idea what you're talking about.

[Grave_n_idle]

I think it's a great idea.

It's not.

[Immoren]

I think it's a great idea. Damn libs in this thread have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes. A great idea. A potential for the Brave New World.

[Ashmoria]

many places allow you to drive when you are 16 and in those states that don't he can drive it around the estate...or if they are VERY good parents they will let him drive wherever he wants and pay the legal fees when he gets caught doing it.

My high school had the children of wealth. First cars were very expensive. Porsche was a common brand.

I guess this is sign to take my facetiousness elsewhere.

you don't like people participating in your facetiousness?

[Ashmoria]

I think it's a great idea. Damn libs in this thread have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't think its liberal thing to think that people have a right to their own families. seems to me that conservatives might be extremely against big government messing in people's families.

[Grave_n_idle]

I think it's a great idea. Damn libs in this thread have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't think its liberal thing to think that people have a right to their own families. seems to me that conservatives might be extremely against big government messing in people's families.

What do you want, consistency?

[Valkalan]

I think a more applicable wording would be "natural family planning" than "planned parenthood."

That works.

[Shiraan]

I think it's a great idea.

It's not.

why not? and don't give me any "HUH DUH HITLUR YEWGENIKS MY BODEE MY CHOIS" bullshit, cold hard facts or nothing at all

[Grave_n_idle]

It's not.

why not? and don't give me any "HUH DUH HITLUR YEWGENIKS MY BODEE MY CHOIS" bullshit, cold hard facts or nothing at all

I have no idea what that was supposed to say, so I'll assume it's not what I was going to say.

There are any number of reasons, but the most fundamental is sheer pragmatism. The wealthy have far greater access to money (obviously), resources and power - but they are outnumbered.

If we're already experiencing a declining natively-born population, stopping the greater majority from contributing to the population is just bad math.

[Imperial Esplanade]

It's not.

why not? and don't give me any "HUH DUH HITLUR YEWGENIKS MY BODEE MY CHOIS" bullshit, cold hard facts or nothing at all

Right.

Well for one, this flies against just about every civil right when it comes to marriage, as well as it won't do a damn thing but just needlessly oppress an entire class of society. What do you think we'll actually achieve through this, anyway?

[Brandenbourg-Anhalt]

I'm asking if we should require licenses to have children, with those who can't afford children without government assistance not allowed to. If you had children illegally, you would either have some kind of penalty if you could manage or your child would be given to a relative or the state. I can see many advantages to doing this.

- Much better educational outcomes/less behavioral disturbances in school

- Likely a genetic eugenic effect; with a smarter population and all that entails

No. It's a horrible suggestion - the mere fact that you are talking about "eugenics" and genetic cleansing of so-called "non-smart" people makes all my alarm bells ring. I do however believe that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion up to at least 20 weeks of pregnancy if it is reasonably believed that she will not be able to afford a child OR it is reasonably believed that her socio-economic circumstances or other factors (such as mental illness or depression or substantial risk of suicide) would otherwise render her unable/unfit to fulfill or safeguard the needs of the child

I also believe that any decision about having an abortion lies solely with the woman herself, meaning that spouses should not be legally entitled to have any say (such as veto power) in terms of any decision to have an abortion - and the decision as to who may know about the abortion should lie solely with the woman as well, unless it's a girl below the age of 15, in which case the written permission of at least one parent/guardian should be collected for the abortion to go ahead.

[Immoren]

I guess this is sign to take my facetiousness elsewhere.

you don't like people participating in your facetiousness?

Seemed to take my facetiousness too seriously.

It's not.

why not? and don't give me any "HUH DUH HITLUR YEWGENIKS MY BODEE MY CHOIS" bullshit, cold hard facts or nothing at all

Le isgh.

[Shiraan]

snip

Think about it this way: all but the most complex of tasks are gonna be taken over by autonomous machines. just like how factories started using robots and the like to make things like cars and clothing, were gonna start seeing things like crops being dusted by something along the lines of a USAF reaper drone, or maybe just a big quadcopter. We won't need people to do unskilled labor. hell, even some skilled jobs will be handled by robots.
We're not talking about the upper class versus the lower class. we're talking about people who can afford to have children versus people so poor they can barely feed themselves. Once they get on they're feet, they could have kids. It's not like we're talking about castrating people.
About the decline in population, that's a good thing. we'd be solving the issue of overpopulation before it's even an issue yet.

[Grave_n_idle]

snip

Think about it this way: all but the most complex of tasks are gonna be taken over by autonomous machines. just like how factories started using robots and the like to make things like cars and clothing, were gonna start seeing things like crops being dusted by something along the lines of a USAF reaper drone, or maybe just a big quadcopter. We won't need people to do unskilled labor. hell, even some skilled jobs will be handled by robots.
We're not talking about the upper class versus the lower class. we're talking about people who can afford to have children versus people so poor they can barely feed themselves. Once they get on they're feet, they could have kids. It's not like we're talking about castrating people.
About the decline in population, that's a good thing. we'd be solving the issue of overpopulation before it's even an issue yet.

Not sure what your point is with automation. Either our population will adapt and find new employment in other fields... or it won't. Either way, there's going to have to be a paradigm shift, and soon.

But that doesn't mean we need a population in decline.

Further, 'solving the issue with overpopulation before it's even an issue' is not a reason to stop people having children based on an arbitrary metric, like bank balance.

If we really are on the brink of a robot revolution, and effectively unlimited power... 'people so poor they can barely feed themselves' is irrelevant. If power is effectively unlimited and labour is performed by machines there's really no reason for food to be limited.


But anyway - I've already explained - I don't care if one person can afford to feed their kids. So long as we COLLECTIVELY can.

[Immoren]

snip

Think about it this way: all but the most complex of tasks are gonna be taken over by autonomous machines. just like how factories started using robots and the like to make things like cars and clothing, were gonna start seeing things like crops being dusted by something along the lines of a USAF reaper drone, or maybe just a big quadcopter. We won't need people to do unskilled labor. hell, even some skilled jobs will be handled by robots.
We're not talking about the upper class versus the lower class. we're talking about people who can afford to have children versus people so poor they can barely feed themselves. Once they get on they're feet, they could have kids. It's not like we're talking about castrating people.
About the decline in population, that's a good thing. we'd be solving the issue of overpopulation before it's even an issue yet.

So citizen's income in this future should be tailored so that two people living together couldn't raise a family?

[Shiraan]

snip

what's your point? are you saying this isn't a good idea because most people can already feed their kids?

[Shiraan]

So citizen's income in this future should be tailored so that two people living together couldn't raise a family?

...what?

[Valkalan]

Think about it this way: all but the most complex of tasks are gonna be taken over by autonomous machines. just like how factories started using robots and the like to make things like cars and clothing, were gonna start seeing things like crops being dusted by something along the lines of a USAF reaper drone, or maybe just a big quadcopter. We won't need people to do unskilled labor. hell, even some skilled jobs will be handled by robots.
We're not talking about the upper class versus the lower class. we're talking about people who can afford to have children versus people so poor they can barely feed themselves. Once they get on they're feet, they could have kids. It's not like we're talking about castrating people.
About the decline in population, that's a good thing. we'd be solving the issue of overpopulation before it's even an issue yet.

The presence of automation presents an alternative and more freedom-friendly solution! Automation requires maintenance, and for the foreseeable future you will need human technicians to maintain the machines. The solution is not to castrate the poor, but rather to cultivate technical skills such that they are competitive in a highly technical economy. Technical skill translates into greater pay than does unskilled labor, therefore we can expect higher income for low income earners of tomorrow, just as the low income earners of today enjoy better conditions than do their predecessors.

[Immoren]

So citizen's income in this future should be tailored so that two people living together couldn't raise a family?

...what?

Obviously if most of labour's gonna be automized, we'll replace majority of social security programs with monthly, guaranteed citizens salary. Question is, why it would/should not be large enough that two or more people pooling together their funds would've enough money for kids.

[Grave_n_idle]

snip

what's your point? are you saying this isn't a good idea because most people can already feed their kids?

No. Did you even read my post?

I'm saying it's a bad idea because food and clothing and accommodation can be easily supplied by a third party, but good parents are a precious resource.

I'm saying that if we're going to give out 'licenses to breed', they need to be based either on ability to actually be a good parent, or ability to produce excellent genetic offspring that will then be raised by someone else.

I'm saying that there's no good reason to stop the vast majority of people breeding IF they'd be either good parents, or provide good genetics that they then don't raise.

I'm saying that if we're going to do a major overhaul - it should be based on something meaningful.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

India's gendercide is not a result of government policies AFAIK.

China's one child policy was the greatest environmental success of the century.

Reproductive controls, favoring boys in India, has created a huge disparity of the sexes there. Abuse towards girls is rampant and doctors accept monetary bribes to perform sex determination tests and abortions on, often, unwilling women.

China's One Child Policy has divided families, and in the process, it has created a sector of the population of children who, under Chinese law, do not exist. They're denied government benefits, including passports and access to health care. It has caused people to flee the country and, in rural areas, has created a problem of little girls being kidnapped and kept by others to ensure their sons have a bride when they come of age.

Not to mention the fact China's economy is going to fracture thanks to a labor shortage, and the fact males outnumber women will hurt them in the long run.