10 dead in Oregon College Shooting

[Soldati Senza Confini]

so you're accepting that guns being widely available contributes to these kinds of incidents?

We don't have much evidence of that, though it is a reasonable hypothesis. We do have proof that the non-existence of something prevents its use.

Do you think someone else's bad behavior justifies punishing you?

Asking for people to be trained before being near a fucking gun, and that their training is valid by not letting people get weapons legally through private means is a punishment?!

I suppose backflow installation permits are a punishment on the homeowner then, the poor homeowner should have a right to his water meter.

[BK117B2]

That wasn't the question. Why don't you try answering the question asked, instead of inventing your own to answer?

have you stopped beating your wife?

you can't answer a question if the question is based on a false premise

Which, given the fact that there was no false premise presented, means that you're just avoiding the question and rambling irrelevancies.

Come on, give it a shot.

[Jamzmania]

I would feel safer in the knowledge that my campus is not vulnerable.

I would feel safer knowing some asshole actually doesn't have a gun on campus.

I'm actually fucking glad I don't have to step into a Texas campus ever again with this shit. If I have to be sure to get a gun, get appropriate licenses, and conceal carry a gun to college then I am no safer than what I was in El Salvador where someone could just take out their gun and kill me just because they don't like me. Fuck that.

You know gun ownership is optional, right?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Now if only the leadership douchebags in organizations like the NRA would grasp that keeping the seriously disturbed from getting a hold of a gun is not the first stage in Nazi Confiscationfest.

No one is against that, it's simply the fact that anti-gun people always say, "We just want to make sure bad guys don't get guns!" While at the same time making it harder and harder to legally get guns; which only hurts the law abiding.

There are many different ways that we could ensure bad guys don't get guns without an outright ban.

I have proposed basic licensing many times, but no, people won't be arsed enough to see that basic licensing should be a requirement before being able to purchase a gun.

[Gauthier]

I would feel safer knowing some asshole actually doesn't have a gun on campus.

I'm actually fucking glad I don't have to step into a Texas campus ever again with this shit. If I have to be sure to get a gun, get appropriate licenses, and conceal carry a gun to college then I am no safer than what I was in El Salvador where someone could just take out their gun and kill me just because they don't like me. Fuck that.

You know gun ownership is optional, right?

Except gun ownership is like countries owning nukes. If you're known to not have any, it's an invitation for all kinds of trouble and thus a direct coercion to get a gun/nuke.

[BK117B2]

We don't have much evidence of that, though it is a reasonable hypothesis. We do have proof that the non-existence of something prevents its use.

Do you think someone else's bad behavior justifies punishing you?

Asking for people to be trained before being near a fucking gun, and that their training is valid by not letting people get weapons legally through private means is a punishment?!

I suppose backflow installation permits are a punishment on the homeowner then, the poor homeowner should have a right to his water meter.

Nice to meet you, straw man.

[Eastern Equestria]

I guess this is just a reality we will have to live with nowadays in America.

That very much depends on where you live in America.

I've never been particularly worried about this shit. That may or may not be because I've lived my entire life in New Jersey

[Alyakia]

have you stopped beating your wife?

you can't answer a question if the question is based on a false premise

Which, given the fact that there was no false premise presented, means that you're just avoiding the question and rambling irrelevancies.

Come on, give it a shot.

your question is it ok to punish them, the premise being that it is a punishment
my response is that it's not a punishment

you look really silly when you go on about making things up and rambling irrelevancies when we need to walk you through your own question

e: and your question is obviously working towards gun control being punishment so i'm refusing to answer it as an unrelated question. is this where your confusion is coming fro,?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I would feel safer knowing some asshole actually doesn't have a gun on campus.

I'm actually fucking glad I don't have to step into a Texas campus ever again with this shit. If I have to be sure to get a gun, get appropriate licenses, and conceal carry a gun to college then I am no safer than what I was in El Salvador where someone could just take out their gun and kill me just because they don't like me. Fuck that.

You know gun ownership is optional, right?

When you are at risk that some idiot, who I do not know if they are properly trained, is going to have a gun that they can misfire; then gun ownership for me isn't an option.

I know I would get a gun, get licensing and proper training to make damn sure I know how to use a concealed weapon. I don't know if you, with your concealed weapon, knows how to properly use one. So no, gun ownership being optional while some asshole has a concealed permit (and it isn't that fucking hard to get a concealed permit in Texas) isn't an "option".

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

You know gun ownership is optional, right?

Except gun ownership is like countries owning nukes. If you're known to not have any, it's an invitation for all kinds of trouble and thus a direct coercion to get a gun/nuke.

The difference is guns get used, like ALL THE DARN TIME, as opposed to nukes that just sit there and collect dust.

[Spirit of Hope]

I would feel safer in the knowledge that my campus is not vulnerable.

I would feel safer knowing some asshole actually doesn't have a gun on campus.

I'm actually fucking glad I don't have to step into a Texas campus ever again with this shit. If I have to be sure to get a gun, get appropriate licenses, and conceal carry a gun to college then I am no safer than what I was in El Salvador where someone could just take out their gun and kill me just because they don't like me. Fuck that.

I would like to point out to legally carry a gun on a Texas university you have to have a concealed carry permit, and that permit requires you pass a shooting test, a written test, fingerprinting, and a back ground check. So it isn't just anyone wondering around with a gun.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Asking for people to be trained before being near a fucking gun, and that their training is valid by not letting people get weapons legally through private means is a punishment?!

I suppose backflow installation permits are a punishment on the homeowner then, the poor homeowner should have a right to his water meter.

Nice to meet you, straw man.

Nice to meet you too, unreasonable argument.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

I would feel safer knowing some asshole actually doesn't have a gun on campus.

I'm actually fucking glad I don't have to step into a Texas campus ever again with this shit. If I have to be sure to get a gun, get appropriate licenses, and conceal carry a gun to college then I am no safer than what I was in El Salvador where someone could just take out their gun and kill me just because they don't like me. Fuck that.

I would like to point out to legally carry a gun on a Texas university you have to have a concealed carry permit, and that permit requires you pass a shooting test, a written test, fingerprinting, and a back ground check. So it isn't just anyone wondering around with a gun.

Question is, why carry a gun around you at all times? What's gonna happen a sudden Mexican invasion? I don't get the point.

[BK117B2]

Which, given the fact that there was no false premise presented, means that you're just avoiding the question and rambling irrelevancies.

Come on, give it a shot.

your question is it ok to punish them, the premise being that it is a punishment
my response is that it's not a punishment

you look really silly when you go on about making things up and rambling irrelevancies when we need to walk you through your own question

My question is a general one about punishment. No specific punishment was ever mentioned.

Your response was to avoid the question...which you're still doing.

The only way you could honesty argue "it's not a punishment" without there ever being an it in the first place is if you believe that there is no such thing as punishment.

[BK117B2]

Nice to meet you, straw man.

Nice to meet you too, unreasonable argument.

I agree, your straw man is very unreasonable.

That brings up the question: why bother creating it then?

[Spirit of Hope]

We don't have much evidence of that, though it is a reasonable hypothesis. We do have proof that the non-existence of something prevents its use.

Do you think someone else's bad behavior justifies punishing you?

Asking for people to be trained before being near a fucking gun,and that their training is valid by not letting people get weapons legally through private means is a punishment?!

Not really a punishment, but unnecessarily restrictive. Accidents only account for about 500 deaths and 30,000 injuries related to guns each year, it also does nothing about homicides which represent 10,000 deaths a year And blocking private sales is silly, instead why don't we just make the tools to investigate who you are selling to available (NICS) and mandatory.

[Alyakia]

your question is it ok to punish them, the premise being that it is a punishment
my response is that it's not a punishment

you look really silly when you go on about making things up and rambling irrelevancies when we need to walk you through your own question

My question is a general one about punishment. No specific punishment was ever mentioned.

Your response was to avoid the question...which you're still doing.

The only way you could honesty argue "it's not a punishment" without there ever being an it in the first place is if you believe that there is no such thing as punishment.

yeah i edited my response to that in. i know exactly where you are going with it so i'm refusing to treat it is a general question, because it's not and you damn well know it isn't.

you expect me to say no so you can go "what about guns" and now you're going on a tangent about me refusing to answer the question because i can't be arsed going through these hoops.

"We should not ban firearms. Person A's decision to do something bad does not justify violating the rights of Person B."

you're not randomly bringing up a philosophical conversation about punishment in a gun thread

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Now if only the leadership douchebags in organizations like the NRA would grasp that keeping the seriously disturbed from getting a hold of a gun is not the first stage in Nazi Confiscationfest.

No one is against that, it's simply the fact that anti-gun people always say, "We just want to make sure bad guys don't get guns!" While at the same time making it harder and harder to legally get guns; which only hurts the law abiding.

Well it's not like there are much laws to keep guns away from the law abiding in the first place, if you wanna have a gun then fine, jut suck it up when it comes to the extra rules because they're cheaper than spending trillions of dollars on uneccessary preventative measures (mental hospitals) to rehabilitate the "crazy" people who end up killing school children.

[Hydesland]

Your ability to pull unsubstantiated, unprovable assertions more likely to be incorrect than correct from your asshole is impressive, but rather unhelpful at proving your 'point'.

I'm operating from the premise that the current quantity and availability of guns in the US is far too high (as do huge amounts of others, in the US and elsewhere), ergo such legislation has necessarily not been substantial and effective enough. If you actually think the quantity/availability of guns is not too high, then feel free to debate that, but don't try this lame attempt to twist what I'm saying into something I'm not.

You have still failed to demonstrate a positive impact on quantity of firearms by laws which decreased firearm availability. Which was, you know, your (original and incorrect) assertion.

I never said that laws which decreased firearm availability had a positive impact on the quantity firearms, and your hilarious and frankly quite pathetic attempt to associate and equivocate gun lobbying with 'passing laws which decrease firearm availability' is obviously fallacious.

No, I mean exactly what I said.

Did you know that banks & financial sector lobbyists have been instrumental in assisting worldwide regulatory authorities with implementing important financial regulations? For instance they assisted hugely in the international Basel II standards, helping to define appropriate Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital requirements, ensuring banks are well capitalized against potential losses from their assets. They've employed some of the finest economists and lawyers to assist in creating a comprehensive legal and economic framework for ensuring that systemic risks in the financial system have been minimized.

All of the above is completely true. Now, if I told you that bank lobbying is partly responsible for allowing the explosion of unsafe credit leading to the financial crisis in 2008, by preventing their institutions from being properly regulated, would you attack me on the basis of what I said in the above paragraph? Do you understand that is exactly what you're doing?

[Gauthier]

The problem still exists. The seriously disturbed are given legal access to firearms and then they decide to Make a Statement. But of course we have to let it happen continuously because otherwise it's Jackbooted Thugs Taykin Our Gunz.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I would feel safer knowing some asshole actually doesn't have a gun on campus.

I'm actually fucking glad I don't have to step into a Texas campus ever again with this shit. If I have to be sure to get a gun, get appropriate licenses, and conceal carry a gun to college then I am no safer than what I was in El Salvador where someone could just take out their gun and kill me just because they don't like me. Fuck that.

I would like to point out to legally carry a gun on a Texas university you have to have a concealed carry permit, and that permit requires you pass a shooting test, a written test, fingerprinting, and a back ground check. So it isn't just anyone wondering around with a gun.

I would like to point out that I don't know if your emotions are going to run high, pull out your weapon, and shoot me.

So I don't know if I am ever going to be safe with some idiot teenager or early-20s carrying on campus. And I wouldn't like to carry a gun in campus because I know I run on the same risks of my emotions running high and pulling out my weapon by mistake.

[Spirit of Hope]

I would like to point out to legally carry a gun on a Texas university you have to have a concealed carry permit, and that permit requires you pass a shooting test, a written test, fingerprinting, and a back ground check. So it isn't just anyone wondering around with a gun.

Question is, why carry a gun around you at all times? What's gonna happen a sudden Mexican invasion? I don't get the point.

Security of mind. Yes, most people are never going to need it, but I'm the type of person who has stockpiled a years worth of food and water in case of an emergency. Plus there are some people who have specific reason to feel afraid.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Question is, why carry a gun around you at all times? What's gonna happen a sudden Mexican invasion? I don't get the point.

Security of mind. Yes, most people are never going to need it, but I'm the type of person who has stockpiled a years worth of food and water in case of an emergency. Plus there are some people who have specific reason to feel afraid.

Yes that reason being that you never know if the other person has a concealed gun, correct?
Spot the irony in the above sentence.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Nice to meet you too, unreasonable argument.

I agree, your straw man is very unreasonable.

That brings up the question: why bother creating it then?

Your argument that it is a punishment is quite unreasonable.

Trying to minimize the ownership of guns so that some idiot doesn't get their hands on a gun is hardly comparable to putting innocent people at risk.

[Inguala]

It's a failure of the US as a country that people feel so in fear of their surroundings that a gun is not simply considered a luxury item by many but a necessity to ensure their safety. The entire nation should see that as an embarrassment.