10 dead in Oregon College Shooting

[Washington Resistance Army]

That's the thing Jim's pointed out before, there is no compromise. Gun control advocates have never given up something, they always just want to put new measures in place without relaxing other things.

I think that's entirely hyperbolic.

What have gun control advocates ever given up?

[Imperializt Russia]

The problem is they get near unfettered access to a gun because legally purchased and legally owned guns can become virtually untraceable in the US. This is because the US doesn't have laws like gun registration which would make it much harder for your average, everyday person about to turn mass murderer, to access a firearm.

I believe I addressed that rather fully in my initial post here. You may want to investigate that before assuming I'm not aware we have problems with how things are currently handled. You have yet to prove that removing all legally-owned guns will solve any of what you're mentioning, however. Just thought I might point that out.

He's not suggesting that.

[Alvecia]

I think that's entirely hyperbolic.

What have gun control advocates ever given up?

What have they to give up?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

He's not suggesting that.

Then it would be nice to see what is being suggested, rather than idle statements of 'guns are the most easily solved problem' without sources or actionable solutions being offered.

[Big Jim P]

That's the thing Jim's pointed out before, there is no compromise. Gun control advocates have never given up something, they always just want to put new measures in place without relaxing other things.

I think that's entirely hyperbolic.

Too bad the gun-grabbers idea of "compromise" is the gun owners giving up some thing in return for nothing in return, then demanding they give up more. That will certainly turn people off to "compromise". Happily that trend has been declining in recent years and (like I have already said), restrictions are being eased stat-by-state.

To me it seems like you're just throwing in the towel and running to the other extreme end of the spectrum. That's not a healthy course of action by any standard

I am not throwing in the towel, I am refusing to play the gun-grabbers game of false "compromise".

[The Black Forrest]

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

You see, you say that, but the biggest gun enthusiasts I know come in two varieties:

1. Collectors and hunters who are meticulous about every aspect of firearm maintenance and safety.

2. Rick Perry.

1) Those numbers can be argued as their a stupid people about securing their weapons. My uncle for example spent a great deal of money on gun safes. He was an avid collector and he hunted. His neighbor's idea of a securing his guns was to lock the door and close the windows to his house. He was robbed once and many weapons disappeared.

2) Many of his type around. Some of my redneck relatives for example; I have no problems with the ebul gubberment disarming them.

[Vitaphone Racing]

The problem is they get near unfettered access to a gun because legally purchased and legally owned guns can become virtually untraceable in the US. This is because the US doesn't have laws like gun registration which would make it much harder for your average, everyday person about to turn mass murderer, to access a firearm.

I believe I addressed that rather fully in my initial post here. You may want to investigate that before assuming I'm not aware we have problems with how things are currently handled. You have yet to prove that removing all legally-owned guns will solve any of what you're mentioning, however. Just thought I might point that out.

You may want to reread what I've wrote instead of instinctively throwing out Gun Grabber Response #1.

Here's one of the typical problems I've found when arguing for gun control on NSG. There's a 90% chance the person you're posting to will knee-jerk and assume you want to completely ban guns.

Would it help if I told you that I am a gun owner myself?

[Gauthier]

But really guys, guns are what saves people in these situations.

What? Combat veterans asserting that the NRA leadership is a bunch of gunfuckers talking out their ass about Good Guys With Guns?

Those traitors are obviously secret gun-grabbers. *nod nod*

[Big Jim P]

What have gun control advocates ever given up?

What have they to give up?

How about nation-wide CCW reciprocity for one?

[Conserative Morality]

'People like me' indeed. You assume a lot there, dear.

No, not really. I assume you've said precisely what you've said in this thread. Is that assumption incorrect? Did someone steal your account?

What I mean by that statement is just what I posted earlier in my rather lengthy rant - those who take a situation and twist it to get what they want. Not those who say 'here is yet another incident that we need to look at the problems that contributed to it, and find some rational solutions to, because this shit should not be happening'.

I'm well aware that people with agendas have a purpose in mind. I simply happen to be of the opinion that far too many of them have, at their heart, the purpose of merely getting elected or re-elected, and nothing further of any use to the public they are using and stirring up. Perhaps you ought to get your facts straight before accusing someone of not understanding what they're saying when they are making a statement. I'm all for the right change being implemented, and rational discussion being had about the problems we're facing. What I am not for is people using fear, anger, and discontentment to simply aid in their personal benefits - something I am afraid far too many of our politicians engage in over any actual benefits to the public and their constituents, sad to say.

Right, that's why we've ended up with a political system crippled by partisan bickering and obsessed with ideological purity. Because politicians don't have any values.

At best, they're genuinely motivated individuals. At worst? They're a mouthpiece for the public. This ridiculous obsession with the evils of politics is nothing but an obstacle in actually resolving issues.

That's my opinion, and I'm afraid you'll simply have to deal with me having it, whether you happen to agree with it or not.

Actually, I can always do what I'm doing here and contest the validity of your opinion on various grounds.

[The Black Forrest]

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

Quit referring to everyone who owns a gun as the "gun Culture".

The US doesn't have a gun culture?

[Allanea]

Since other countries do just fine not allowing the defence argument (in the UK, excluding Northern Ireland where the exception should be plainly obvious, self-defence is explicitly considered not a valid reason to own a firearm), one must question whether it's valid in the US, since it's not anywhere else.

Or vice versa, we must consider if those countries are doing the right thing.

[There's plenty of countries that do accept self-defense as a valid ground for firearm ownership. Israel, Russia, the Czech Republic, Austria come to mind right off the bat. Canada doesn't inquire for your reason for firearm ownership so lots of Canadians probably do so for self-defense.]

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

You may want to reread what I've wrote instead of instinctively throwing out Gun Grabber Response #1.

Here's one of the typical problems I've found when arguing for gun control on NSG. There's a 90% chance the person you're posting to will knee-jerk and assume you want to completely ban guns.

Would it help if I told you that I am a gun owner myself?

What would help is a cohesive response referring to an actual solution, not just tossing out, as I recently posted, a statement without a solution noted to back it up. I don't own any guns myself. Does ownership or lack thereof make an opinion any more or less valid?

[Alvecia]

I think that's entirely hyperbolic.



To me it seems like you're just throwing in the towel and running to the other extreme end of the spectrum. That's not a healthy course of action by any standard

I am not throwing in the towel, I am refusing to play the gun-grabbers game of false "compromise".

You kind of are.
"If they won't compromise then why should I even try?"
That will solve all of our problems I'm sure.
Sarcasm aside, few things are peacfully resolved by two parties stubbornly clinging to each extreme end of the argument.

[Conserative Morality]

I believe I addressed that rather fully in my initial post here. You may want to investigate that before assuming I'm not aware we have problems with how things are currently handled. You have yet to prove that removing all legally-owned guns will solve any of what you're mentioning, however. Just thought I might point that out.

Does the irony of complaining about people assuming things about you and then assigning ridiculous strawmen to your opponents not strike you as somewhat strong?

[Big Jim P]

Quit referring to everyone who owns a gun as the "gun Culture".

The US doesn't have a gun culture?

We do. A lot of people who are not part of that culture are being lumped in with us unfortunately.

[Vitaphone Racing]

He's not suggesting that.

Then it would be nice to see what is being suggested, rather than idle statements of 'guns are the most easily solved problem' without sources or actionable solutions being offered.

Didn't I just say registration?

I think further restricting the ownership of guns will work because it has worked in many other countries. This can be evidenced by the much higher firearm homicide rate in the US. This doesn't mean DC style restrictions where you can drive for a few miles and bring a gun back in with ease.

Please elaborate on how your ideas will effectively prevent mass shootings. I don't consider anger or mental illness to be any more prevalent in the US than any other country in the world and seeing as many shooters have been from a middle class upbringing, I hesitate to say they haven't been offered quality mental healthcare for their conditions. If somebody gets angry at school and decides to return the next day with a gun, how do you stop them? Do you think you can spot the problem in time? How much privacy will have to be invaded to ensure we treat the problem starting with the person?

[Alvecia]

What have they to give up?

How about nation-wide CCW reciprocity for one?

So convince them. The problem isn't going to be solved overnight. People aren't going wake up saying
"Oh you know what, this position that I've invested a lot of time and energy into really has no ground. I'm going to completely change my mind".
No you keep at it and wear them down by attrition. Offer to compromise if they do the same. Don't give up a bargainng tool and then get annoyed that they didn't reciprocate without prioir agreement to do so.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Right, that's why we've ended up with a political system crippled by partisan bickering and obsessed with ideological purity. Because politicians don't have any values.

At best, they're genuinely motivated individuals. At worst? They're a mouthpiece for the public. This ridiculous obsession with the evils of politics is nothing but an obstacle in actually resolving issues.

That's my opinion, and I'm afraid you'll simply have to deal with me having it, whether you happen to agree with it or not.

Actually, I can always do what I'm doing here and contest the validity of your opinion on various grounds.

Well, when said politicians actually get off their asses, stop arguing in circles and threatening government shutdown because they can't get their way due to linking unrelated issues to bills, or refusing to put a problematic budget decision aside in order to fix the greater looming issue, or when they opt to put party or personal benefit aside in order to have a rhetoric-free discussion about how to fix things in a way that protects without forcing law-abiding, responsible citizens to give up their rights and ownership, I'll stop being so cynical.

[Seventh Oblivion]

This is terrible, I feel so sorry for all of those people that did nothing wrong.

I cannot imagine the terror they felt, knowing their lives would end at that point.

[The Black Forrest]

The US doesn't have a gun culture?

We do. A lot of people who are not part of that culture are being lumped in with us unfortunately.

Re-reading it again. (and have some coffee ) you are correct. One weapon does not a culture participant make.

The morons don't help either (example my relatives)......

[Big Jim P]

I am not throwing in the towel, I am refusing to play the gun-grabbers game of false "compromise".

You kind of are.
"If they won't compromise then why should I even try?"
That will solve all of our problems I'm sure.
Sarcasm aside, few things are peacfully resolved by two parties stubbornly clinging to each extreme end of the argument.

When thee gun-grabbers quit calling their one-sided exchange "compromise", quit misrepresenting and/or exaggerating facts, recognize the benefits of gun ownership and educate them selves with some basic firearms knowledge, then I will listen to them.

[Vitaphone Racing]

You kind of are.
"If they won't compromise then why should I even try?"
That will solve all of our problems I'm sure.
Sarcasm aside, few things are peacfully resolved by two parties stubbornly clinging to each extreme end of the argument.

When thee gun-grabbers quit calling their one-sided exchange "compromise", quit misrepresenting and/or exaggerating facts, recognize the benefits of gun ownership and educate them selves with some basic firearms knowledge, then I will listen to them.

I own guns and have for a decade. Will you listen to me or have you got another excuse?

[Jamzmania]

I am not throwing in the towel, I am refusing to play the gun-grabbers game of false "compromise".

You kind of are.
"If they won't compromise then why should I even try?"
That will solve all of our problems I'm sure.
Sarcasm aside, few things are peacfully resolved by two parties stubbornly clinging to each extreme end of the argument.

Fighting to keep the rights you already have is hardly an extreme position.

[Allanea]

Are you going to add "I hunt regularly"?