10 dead in Oregon College Shooting

[Jamzmania]

As I would group drug-affiliated and juvenile violence as being in association to the gang culture, it could be said that with responsible social engineering we could reduce deaths by half.

How do you arrive at "half"?

Drug affiliated, gangland and juvenile gangland total 1000 firearm homicides between them.
To reduce gun deaths by half, the more practical manner would be to reduce violence in the home - a quarter of all firearms homicides (not considered gang violence, for that matter) are the escalation of some description of argument.

I argue this is a problem of gun culture in the US, which is exacerbated by the access to guns available. The gun is not respected for what it is - a tool of deadly force, that requires respect. Otherwise we would not see over two thousand "arguments" "settled" by a gunman every year.
The article described a page or two ago sums up my viewpoint here - an eleven year old child shot his eight year old neighbour, because she wouldn't let him see her puppy. That is absolutely a problem of culture exacerbated by access. Without access to firearms (which could include better firearm security on the part of that weapon's owner), this would not have happened. With improved gun culture, the child would not have seen the firearm as a solution to the "problem" of not being allowed to see a fucking dog.

I don't think I've ever heard an adult murderer justify his actions with, "I didn't know shooting him would make him die!"

[Conserative Morality]

But really guys, guns are what saves people in these situations.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Well, 'gun-grabbers', or those who seem to think that guns are the entire problem, are simply gonna have to wake up and face the reality that law-abiding citizens who already do all the things they're supposed to are not the issue, like it or not. I think I've pretty much covered my take on it in that long-winded deal there. But sitting and pointing fingers at one another ain't the solution either. Its gotta start somewhere. *shrugs*

What I think we can all agree on is that shootings like this need to stop, they need to stop being politicized and used by any groups to further their own agendas, and that citizens have a right to attend classes without the fear of some whackjob with a grudge waltzing in and having their way with them.

How we reach those ends, I've already suggested.

[Conserative Morality]

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

You see, you say that, but the biggest gun enthusiasts I know come in two varieties:

1. Collectors and hunters who are meticulous about every aspect of firearm maintenance and safety.

2. Rick Perry.

[Val Halla]

Well, 'gun-grabbers', or those who seem to think that guns are the entire problem, are simply gonna have to wake up and face the reality that law-abiding citizens who already do all the things they're supposed to are not the issue, like it or not. I think I've pretty much covered my take on it in that long-winded deal there. But sitting and pointing fingers at one another ain't the solution either. Its gotta start somewhere. *shrugs*

What I think we can all agree on is that shootings like this need to stop, they need to stop being politicized and used by any groups to further their own agendas, and that citizens have a right to attend classes without the fear of some whackjob with a grudge waltzing in and having their way with them.

How we reach those ends, I've already suggested.

Everything will always be made into agendas, and these are the sorts of events that tend to lead to change, for better or worse.

[Conserative Morality]

Well, 'gun-grabbers', or those who seem to think that guns are the entire problem, are simply gonna have to wake up and face the reality that law-abiding citizens who already do all the things they're supposed to are not the issue, like it or not. I think I've pretty much covered my take on it in that long-winded deal there. But sitting and pointing fingers at one another ain't the solution either. Its gotta start somewhere. *shrugs*

What I think we can all agree on is that shootings like this need to stop, they need to stop being politicized and used by any groups to further their own agendas, and that citizens have a right to attend classes without the fear of some whackjob with a grudge waltzing in and having their way with them.

How we reach those ends, I've already suggested.

"Stop being politicized"

It's almost like some people see this has a public safety issue in which people's lives are at stake.

[Vitaphone Racing]

How do you arrive at "half"?

Drug affiliated, gangland and juvenile gangland total 1000 firearm homicides between them.
To reduce gun deaths by half, the more practical manner would be to reduce violence in the home - a quarter of all firearms homicides (not considered gang violence, for that matter) are the escalation of some description of argument.

I argue this is a problem of gun culture in the US, which is exacerbated by the access to guns available. The gun is not respected for what it is - a tool of deadly force, that requires respect. Otherwise we would not see over two thousand "arguments" "settled" by a gunman every year.
The article described a page or two ago sums up my viewpoint here - an eleven year old child shot his eight year old neighbour, because she wouldn't let him see her puppy. That is absolutely a problem of culture exacerbated by access. Without access to firearms (which could include better firearm security on the part of that weapon's owner), this would not have happened. With improved gun culture, the child would not have seen the firearm as a solution to the "problem" of not being allowed to see a fucking dog.

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

[West Dixieland]

How do you arrive at "half"?

Drug affiliated, gangland and juvenile gangland total 1000 firearm homicides between them.
To reduce gun deaths by half, the more practical manner would be to reduce violence in the home - a quarter of all firearms homicides (not considered gang violence, for that matter) are the escalation of some description of argument.

I argue this is a problem of gun culture in the US, which is exacerbated by the access to guns available. The gun is not respected for what it is - a tool of deadly force, that requires respect. Otherwise we would not see over two thousand "arguments" "settled" by a gunman every year.
The article described a page or two ago sums up my viewpoint here - an eleven year old child shot his eight year old neighbour, because she wouldn't let him see her puppy. That is absolutely a problem of culture exacerbated by access. Without access to firearms (which could include better firearm security on the part of that weapon's owner), this would not have happened. With improved gun culture, the child would not have seen the firearm as a solution to the "problem" of not being allowed to see a fucking dog.

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

Exactly. Criminal culture is what furthers this, not my dad taking me out to the gun range with his 1911 to show me safety, responsibility, and skill. That's gun culture.
A 19 year old with crack on him lying dead on the side of an apartment building is criminal culture.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Well, 'gun-grabbers', or those who seem to think that guns are the entire problem, are simply gonna have to wake up and face the reality that law-abiding citizens who already do all the things they're supposed to are not the issue, like it or not. I think I've pretty much covered my take on it in that long-winded deal there. But sitting and pointing fingers at one another ain't the solution either. Its gotta start somewhere. *shrugs*

What I think we can all agree on is that shootings like this need to stop, they need to stop being politicized and used by any groups to further their own agendas, and that citizens have a right to attend classes without the fear of some whackjob with a grudge waltzing in and having their way with them.

How we reach those ends, I've already suggested.

"Stop being politicized"

It's almost like some people see this has a public safety issue in which people's lives are at stake.

Oh god forbid anyone say anything about it, that must obviously be using it for an agenda. Of course, any and all commentary has to be wrong. Please. Lets cease the disingenuous snarkery here, and either discuss with some degree of seriousness, or take our little ball of discontentment and go home.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

How about we fix the other problems that have contributed to people feeling they need to protect themselves and their loved ones, rather than simply pointing fingers at those who aren't the ones going around shooting people. Responsible ownership is not the problem here, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Big Jim P]

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

Quit referring to everyone who owns a gun as the "gun Culture".

[Big Jim P]

That incident reflects a LACK of gun culture. The gun culture places a heavy focus on gun safety and responsibility.

Exactly. Criminal culture is what furthers this, not my dad taking me out to the gun range with his 1911 to show me safety, responsibility, and skill. That's gun culture.
A 19 year old with crack on him lying dead on the side of an apartment building is criminal culture.

100% correct.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Well, 'gun-grabbers', or those who seem to think that guns are the entire problem, are simply gonna have to wake up and face the reality that law-abiding citizens who already do all the things they're supposed to are not the issue, like it or not. I think I've pretty much covered my take on it in that long-winded deal there. But sitting and pointing fingers at one another ain't the solution either. Its gotta start somewhere. *shrugs*

What I think we can all agree on is that shootings like this need to stop, they need to stop being politicized and used by any groups to further their own agendas, and that citizens have a right to attend classes without the fear of some whackjob with a grudge waltzing in and having their way with them.

How we reach those ends, I've already suggested.

Guns aren't the entire problem, yet they're one of the easiest things to fix. And it's not even like this involves an all-out ban rather than moving them out of reach of those that would abuse them. However this is blocked at every turn by those who insist that it's not the government's business who owns guns or for what purpose. It leaves a loophole that's exploited by the murderer in this situation, black market arms dealers who trade previously legally owned guns and all sorts of people that probably shouldn't be around guns but are anyway. Sad but true.

[Big Jim P]

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

How about we fix the other problems that have contributed to people feeling they need to protect themselves and their loved ones, rather than simply pointing fingers at those who aren't the ones going around shooting people. Responsible ownership is not the problem here, whether you want to admit it or not.

Unfortunately we will never breed the predatory instinct out of humanity, nor should we. It drives our progress, and occasionally goes awry.

[Vitaphone Racing]

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

Quit referring to everyone who owns a gun as the "gun Culture".

What? A person isn't a culture. That's silly.

You might have this idea in your head of what you think the gun culture in the US is, but considering the amount of accidental shootings and needlessly escalated conflicts to the point of "defensive homicide", it's clearly not the only culture at work.

[Conserative Morality]

Oh god forbid anyone say anything about it, that must obviously be using it for an agenda. Of course, any and all commentary has to be wrong. Please. Lets cease the disingenuous snarkery here, and either discuss with some degree of seriousness, or take our little ball of discontentment and go home.

You see, people like you complain about issues being 'politicized', but really, that's just another word for an issue being addressed and dealt with. Even the stupidest proposals and most radical advocates are generally pretty sincere. Those agendas people push? They generally have a purpose in mind. Built on faulty premises, sure, but 'politicizing'? It's ridiculous.

Unless your assumption is that the vast majority of people are being disingenuous when they express their opinions, in which case there are probably bigger problems afoot.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Well, 'gun-grabbers', or those who seem to think that guns are the entire problem, are simply gonna have to wake up and face the reality that law-abiding citizens who already do all the things they're supposed to are not the issue, like it or not. I think I've pretty much covered my take on it in that long-winded deal there. But sitting and pointing fingers at one another ain't the solution either. Its gotta start somewhere. *shrugs*

What I think we can all agree on is that shootings like this need to stop, they need to stop being politicized and used by any groups to further their own agendas, and that citizens have a right to attend classes without the fear of some whackjob with a grudge waltzing in and having their way with them.

How we reach those ends, I've already suggested.

Guns aren't the entire problem, yet they're one of the easiest things to fix. And it's not even like this involves an all-out ban rather than moving them out of reach of those that would abuse them. However this is blocked at every turn by those who insist that it's not the government's business who owns guns or for what purpose. It leaves a loophole that's exploited by the murderer in this situation, black market arms dealers who trade previously legally owned guns and all sorts of people that probably shouldn't be around guns but are anyway. Sad but true.

If they were actually the 'easiest thing to fix' we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would we be having these incidents continually crop up. I don't think people are saying it isn't anyone's business who owns them - even Jim there who is a strong advocate of ownership has voiced support for a flag system such as I suggested. What's actually sad but true is that taking guns out of the hands of responsible owners will not solve the problem. This is a point that far too many seem to want to brush under the rug and not admit.

There's plenty who ought not have access to a gun. I don't think there are any rational people here who will come forward and state that we have no business keeping them out of those person's hands.

[Vitaphone Racing]

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

How about we fix the other problems that have contributed to people feeling they need to protect themselves and their loved ones,

How about we fix the problem that can be fixed? Do you have any ideas on how to prevent people getting really, really angry?

rather than simply pointing fingers at those who aren't the ones going around shooting people. Responsible ownership is not the problem here, whether you want to admit it or not.

Lmao did I ever say anything to the contrary? Am I blaming you for shooting people?

[Val Halla]

Remember a lot of the most vunerable people can't have firearms.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Guns aren't the entire problem, yet they're one of the easiest things to fix. And it's not even like this involves an all-out ban rather than moving them out of reach of those that would abuse them. However this is blocked at every turn by those who insist that it's not the government's business who owns guns or for what purpose. It leaves a loophole that's exploited by the murderer in this situation, black market arms dealers who trade previously legally owned guns and all sorts of people that probably shouldn't be around guns but are anyway. Sad but true.

If they were actually the 'easiest thing to fix' we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would we be having these incidents continually crop up. I don't think people are saying it isn't anyone's business who owns them - even Jim there who is a strong advocate of ownership has voiced support for a flag system such as I suggested. What's actually sad but true is that taking guns out of the hands of responsible owners will not solve the problem. This is a point that far too many seem to want to brush under the rug and not admit.

There's plenty who ought not have access to a gun. I don't think there are any rational people here who will come forward and state that we have no business keeping them out of those person's hands.

The problem is they get near unfettered access to a gun because legally purchased and legally owned guns can become virtually untraceable in the US. This is because the US doesn't have laws like gun registration which would make it much harder for your average, everyday person about to turn mass murderer, to access a firearm.

[Big Jim P]

Quit referring to everyone who owns a gun as the "gun Culture".

What? A person isn't a culture. That's silly.

You might have this idea in your head of what you think the gun culture in the US is, but considering the amount of accidental shootings and needlessly escalated conflicts to the point of "defensive homicide", it's clearly not the only culture at work.

Accidental shootings: around 500 a year. Not all DGUs result in a shooting.

The gun culture in America is the VAST majority of people who safely and responsibly own and use their guns. It is not the criminal and/or moron who gets all their gun knowledge from the mass media/pop culture.

[Imperializt Russia]

No there's a gun culture alright, and it's not one of safety or responsibility. Fix your gun culture.

How about we fix the other problems that have contributed to people feeling they need to protect themselves and their loved ones, rather than simply pointing fingers at those who aren't the ones going around shooting people. Responsible ownership is not the problem here, whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm fairly certain that really, this can just be traced back to frontiersmanship and revolutionary spirit. Nothing especially relevant today (except in rural communities), it's just carried through.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Oh god forbid anyone say anything about it, that must obviously be using it for an agenda. Of course, any and all commentary has to be wrong. Please. Lets cease the disingenuous snarkery here, and either discuss with some degree of seriousness, or take our little ball of discontentment and go home.

You see, people like you complain about issues being 'politicized', but really, that's just another word for an issue being addressed and dealt with. Even the stupidest proposals and most radical advocates are generally pretty sincere. Those agendas people push? They generally have a purpose in mind. Built on faulty premises, sure, but 'politicizing'? It's ridiculous.

Unless your assumption is that the vast majority of people are being disingenuous when they express their opinions, in which case there are probably bigger problems afoot.

'People like me' indeed. You assume a lot there, dear. What I mean by that statement is just what I posted earlier in my rather lengthy rant - those who take a situation and twist it to get what they want. Not those who say 'here is yet another incident that we need to look at the problems that contributed to it, and find some rational solutions to, because this shit should not be happening'.

I'm well aware that people with agendas have a purpose in mind. I simply happen to be of the opinion that far too many of them have, at their heart, the purpose of merely getting elected or re-elected, and nothing further of any use to the public they are using and stirring up. Perhaps you ought to get your facts straight before accusing someone of not understanding what they're saying when they are making a statement. I'm all for the right change being implemented, and rational discussion being had about the problems we're facing. What I am not for is people using fear, anger, and discontentment to simply aid in their personal benefits - something I am afraid far too many of our politicians engage in over any actual benefits to the public and their constituents, sad to say. That's my opinion, and I'm afraid you'll simply have to deal with me having it, whether you happen to agree with it or not.

[Alvecia]

That's the thing Jim's pointed out before, there is no compromise. Gun control advocates have never given up something, they always just want to put new measures in place without relaxing other things.

I think that's entirely hyperbolic.

Too bad the gun-grabbers idea of "compromise" is the gun owners giving up some thing in return for nothing in return, then demanding they give up more. That will certainly turn people off to "compromise". Happily that trend has been declining in recent years and (like I have already said), restrictions are being eased stat-by-state.

To me it seems like you're just throwing in the towel and running to the other extreme end of the spectrum. That's not a healthy course of action by any standard

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

The problem is they get near unfettered access to a gun because legally purchased and legally owned guns can become virtually untraceable in the US. This is because the US doesn't have laws like gun registration which would make it much harder for your average, everyday person about to turn mass murderer, to access a firearm.

I believe I addressed that rather fully in my initial post here. You may want to investigate that before assuming I'm not aware we have problems with how things are currently handled. You have yet to prove that removing all legally-owned guns will solve any of what you're mentioning, however. Just thought I might point that out.