10 dead in Oregon College Shooting

[Big Jim P]

That there is not enough gun control.

Well there isn't enough gun control, because the gun control already in place can be bypassed so easily that it might as well not be there.

In many states in the US, you can buy a gun from another person without passing any kind of background check.

This means that no matter how many felonies you have on your record, no matter what state you live in, you can drive to a state where you can buy a gun privately from someone else no questions asked, and the seller has no obligation to check the buyer's background.

Chicago had some of the strictest gun laws in the US for many years, and they could all be bypassed with a 15 minute drive to Indiana.

The 1968 GCA is so badly written it might as well not exist:

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person:

"Oh I'm sorry officer I had no idea he was a serial killer, he looked fine to me."
"OK you're free to go"

If you don't check if the person buying your gun is a prohibited person or not, you are being negligent and you should be held responsible if the buyer turns out to be a felon and commits a crime with the gun you sold to him.

If your gun gets stolen from you and you don't report it/didn't store it safely, you should be held responsible and punished if the gun turns up in a crime.

The Chicago argument has been debunked so many time it is not even funny. You can bring in outside guns into ANY city in the U.S. and few have the problems Chicago has. Chicago should get with the rest of the county, not try to make the rest of the country a similar hellhole.

[Tule]

Here's a good idea.

That's a great way to drive up suicide rates as people stop getting/seeking treatment for their mental illness due to increased stigma.

Medications are probably keeping the rate of mass shootings down.

[Tule]

Well there isn't enough gun control, because the gun control already in place can be bypassed so easily that it might as well not be there.

In many states in the US, you can buy a gun from another person without passing any kind of background check.

This means that no matter how many felonies you have on your record, no matter what state you live in, you can drive to a state where you can buy a gun privately from someone else no questions asked, and the seller has no obligation to check the buyer's background.

Chicago had some of the strictest gun laws in the US for many years, and they could all be bypassed with a 15 minute drive to Indiana.

The 1968 GCA is so badly written it might as well not exist:



"Oh I'm sorry officer I had no idea he was a serial killer, he looked fine to me."
"OK you're free to go"

If you don't check if the person buying your gun is a prohibited person or not, you are being negligent and you should be held responsible if the buyer turns out to be a felon and commits a crime with the gun you sold to him.

If your gun gets stolen from you and you don't report it/didn't store it safely, you should be held responsible and punished if the gun turns up in a crime.

The Chicago argument has been debunked so many time it is not even funny. You can bring in outside guns into ANY city in the U.S. and few have the problems Chicago has. Chicago should get with the rest of the county, not try to make the rest of the country a similar hellhole.

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

[Gauthier]

Here's a good idea.

That's a great way to drive up suicide rates as people stop getting/seeking treatment for their mental illness due to increased stigma.

Medications are probably keeping the rate of mass shootings down.

Of course it would operate on the presumption that the mentally ill will conveniently kill themselves instead of finding a bunch of people to shoot up.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

You can get guns into Honolulu just fine if you have the smallest idea of what you're doing. Jim's right though, Chicago is just about the worst example of gun control you could use. This is the same city that's nicknamed Chiraq and whose criminals have been known to be in possession of anti-tank weapons.

[The Black Forrest]

Here's a good idea.

That's a great way to drive up suicide rates as people stop getting/seeking treatment for their mental illness due to increased stigma.

Medications are probably keeping the rate of mass shootings down.

It's nothing more then excuse hunting. We don't need to do anything with gun laws because it was a drug problem. GET HIS DOCTOR HE IS TO BLAME!

Mental disease is a problem and the Repubs will talk about it but at best will probably offer the typical paper tiger to deal with it.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Here's a good idea.

*shock* talk about mental disease? Are you going to support ACA now?

It might be argued we can blame St. Regan for the closure of many mental installations.

Actually, there's a good deal of 'blame' to go around there. Perhaps most uncomfortably (and most largely alongside of 'ebul Regan' raging) the movement towards expanding civil rights for the mentally ill or disabled. We started thinking those folks had *gasp* the same rights as the mentally sane and instituted a number of restrictions on state power over them and specific protections for them (such as, perhaps most famously, the need for them to be proven a danger to others and mentally incompetent to be put into treatment centers...And even then they might not need to actually undergo the treatment those centers offer, - California was/is rather famous for that particular oddity).

And the ACA don't do jack-diddly waffle-shit to even sidle up to that issue and say 'Hi'. Nobody in federal government has done much of anything on that front since Reagan himself (and the Democratic Congress...Ruh-roh raggy) spearheaded the deinstutionalization movement with the support of fiscal conservatives and social liberals both.

[Imperializt Russia]

Here's a good idea.

That's a great way to drive up suicide rates as people stop getting/seeking treatment for their mental illness due to increased stigma.

Medications are probably keeping the rate of mass shootings down.

What.
The fucking.
Shit.

Is that woman fucking talking about.

Jesus motherfucking Christ.

I'm done.

I'm so fucking done.

[Tule]

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

You can get guns into Honolulu just fine if you have the smallest idea of what you're doing. Jim's right though, Chicago is just about the worst example of gun control you could use. This is the same city that's nicknamed Chiraq and whose criminals have been known to be in possession of anti-tank weapons.

I see you didn't read my comment.

Chicago's gun laws were a complete failure because they could be bypassed with a quick drive to Gary, Indiana.

[Gauthier]

That's a great way to drive up suicide rates as people stop getting/seeking treatment for their mental illness due to increased stigma.

Medications are probably keeping the rate of mass shootings down.

What.
The fucking.
Shit.

Is that woman fucking talking about.

Jesus motherfucking Christ.

I'm done.

I'm so fucking done.

The United States has a Blame Everything But Our Guns mentality on crime.

Blame video games. Blame mental illness. Blame psychiatric meds. Blame aliens.

But don't you dare say that Our Guns may play a part in crime.

[The Black Forrest]

*shock* talk about mental disease? Are you going to support ACA now?

It might be argued we can blame St. Regan for the closure of many mental installations.

Actually, there's a good deal of 'blame' to go around there. Perhaps most uncomfortably (and most largely alongside of 'ebul Regan' raging) the movement towards expanding civil rights for the mentally ill or disabled. We started thinking those folks had *gasp* the same rights as the mentally sane and instituted a number of restrictions on state power over them and specific protections for them (such as, perhaps most famously, the need for them to be proven a danger to others and mentally incompetent to be put into treatment centers...And even then they might not need to actually undergo the treatment those centers offer, - California was/is rather famous for that particular oddity).

And the ACA don't do jack-diddly waffle-shit to even sidle up to that issue and say 'Hi'. Nobody in federal government has done much of anything on that front since Reagan himself (and the Democratic Congress...Ruh-roh raggy) spearheaded the deinstutionalization movement with the support of fiscal conservatives and social liberals both.

Ok. How are rights of the mentally ill in play with this?

St. Regan did in the institutions.

ACA in it's current form doesn't do much. Now what would the Repubs do if there was talk about increasing it to handle it?

[Gauthier]

Actually, there's a good deal of 'blame' to go around there. Perhaps most uncomfortably (and most largely alongside of 'ebul Regan' raging) the movement towards expanding civil rights for the mentally ill or disabled. We started thinking those folks had *gasp* the same rights as the mentally sane and instituted a number of restrictions on state power over them and specific protections for them (such as, perhaps most famously, the need for them to be proven a danger to others and mentally incompetent to be put into treatment centers...And even then they might not need to actually undergo the treatment those centers offer, - California was/is rather famous for that particular oddity).

And the ACA don't do jack-diddly waffle-shit to even sidle up to that issue and say 'Hi'. Nobody in federal government has done much of anything on that front since Reagan himself (and the Democratic Congress...Ruh-roh raggy) spearheaded the deinstutionalization movement with the support of fiscal conservatives and social liberals both.

Ok. How are rights of the mentally ill in play with this?

St. Regan did in the institutions.

ACA in it's current form doesn't do much. Now what would the Repubs do if there was talk about increasing it to handle it?

Bitch about Communised Medicine and how Obama is a Spend Happy Kenyan Muslim Liberal?

[Washington Resistance Army]

You can get guns into Honolulu just fine if you have the smallest idea of what you're doing. Jim's right though, Chicago is just about the worst example of gun control you could use. This is the same city that's nicknamed Chiraq and whose criminals have been known to be in possession of anti-tank weapons.

I see you didn't read my comment.

Chicago's gun laws were a complete failure because they could be bypassed with a quick drive to Gary, Indiana.

And the fact that Chicago is home to a number of competing organized crime groups. Punishing Average Joe because of that just doesn't make much sense to me.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Semi-automatic rifles are excellent tools of self-defense.

Specifically I believe the AR-15 to be the finest implement of armed personal self-defense available to modern mankind.

It's also great for target shooting (why I own one) and hunting social/pack animals like prairie dogs or coyotes. And it's configurable for different calibers, so it is very versatile.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Actually, there's a good deal of 'blame' to go around there. Perhaps most uncomfortably (and most largely alongside of 'ebul Regan' raging) the movement towards expanding civil rights for the mentally ill or disabled. We started thinking those folks had *gasp* the same rights as the mentally sane and instituted a number of restrictions on state power over them and specific protections for them (such as, perhaps most famously, the need for them to be proven a danger to others and mentally incompetent to be put into treatment centers...And even then they might not need to actually undergo the treatment those centers offer, - California was/is rather famous for that particular oddity).

And the ACA don't do jack-diddly waffle-shit to even sidle up to that issue and say 'Hi'. Nobody in federal government has done much of anything on that front since Reagan himself (and the Democratic Congress...Ruh-roh raggy) spearheaded the deinstutionalization movement with the support of fiscal conservatives and social liberals both.

Ok. How are rights of the mentally ill in play with this?

In play with what?
You were speaking historically, I referred you to a historical tidbit. One should keep in mind deinstitutionalization as a policy was sidelined along on the basis of the mentally ills' rights. If they are seeking reinstutionalization, that's going to necessarily involve some rejiggering of how those rights are viewed and what standard is used. Because the issue isn't the lack of institutions (all states have them) it's a lack of people voluntarily committing themselves to them (or not committing to the treatment programs they prescribe). It'd be a damn big waste of money to reopen federal mental institutions for nobody to come...

St. Regan did in the institutions.

With the assistance of civil rights advocates, yes. Because forced institutionalization became unpopular, for what are actually a number of really good reasons.

ACA in it's current form doesn't do much. Now what would the Repubs do if there was talk about increasing it to handle it?

Increasing what? There isn't talk of such, because nobody in politics wants to touch the issue because they'd have to confront the civil rights aspect of deinstitutionalization (which is pretty broadly popular).

[Occupied Deutschland]

The Chicago argument has been debunked so many time it is not even funny. You can bring in outside guns into ANY city in the U.S. and few have the problems Chicago has. Chicago should get with the rest of the county, not try to make the rest of the country a similar hellhole.

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

Hawaii, New Hampshire and South Dakota are tied at .04 according to wiki (disregarding Florida at '-' and Alabama at a rate of '0.0' but with limited data).
So...I mean, Hawaii is one of them with its strict controls. South Dakota and New Hampshire have the same rate without those though, so the point is rather lost.

Of course, this is using firearm murder rates as opposed to fucking retarded 'gun death rates'. Because suicide isn't a gun-control-law problem.

[Big Jim P]

The Chicago argument has been debunked so many time it is not even funny. You can bring in outside guns into ANY city in the U.S. and few have the problems Chicago has. Chicago should get with the rest of the county, not try to make the rest of the country a similar hellhole.

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

Te Pacific Ocean might just have a bit to do with that.

Edit: source for the rate of gun deaths?

[Big Jim P]

What.
The fucking.
Shit.

Is that woman fucking talking about.

Jesus motherfucking Christ.

I'm done.

I'm so fucking done.

The United States has a Blame Everything But Our Guns mentality on crime.

Blame video games. Blame mental illness. Blame psychiatric meds. Blame aliens.

But don't you dare say that Our Guns may play a part in crime.

The gun grabbers refuse to admit to the benefits of gun ownership, and the fact that those benefits FAR outweigh the cost.

[Big Jim P]

You can get guns into Honolulu just fine if you have the smallest idea of what you're doing. Jim's right though, Chicago is just about the worst example of gun control you could use. This is the same city that's nicknamed Chiraq and whose criminals have been known to be in possession of anti-tank weapons.

I see you didn't read my comment.

Chicago's gun laws were a complete failure because they could be bypassed with a quick drive to Gary, Indiana.

And you missed part of mine:

The Chicago argument has been debunked so many time it is not even funny. You can bring in outside guns into ANY city in the U.S. and few have the problems Chicago has. Chicago should get with the rest of the county, not try to make the rest of the country a similar hellhole.

[Coccygia]

Nobody's even proposing to "violate your civil rights", Mr. Gun Nut.

Every time one of these shootings happens everyone (by which I mean bleeding hearts and the media to which they subscribe) starts clamoring for increased gun control. The small (and growing) clique of people shouting for more control drown out voices from the other side of the fence, or make them look insane and paranoid (never mind those who don't bother to speak up in the first place).

We once impeached a president for illegally wiretapping a hotel room. Now? It's become normal to allow the government to spy on every level of our lives in the name of "national security". Our Bill of Rights might not even exist.

Sorry for calling you a Gun Nut. That was out of line. But nobody is proposing to take away your goddamned guns. Considering that all the anti-gun control arguments are strawman arguments, slippery slope arguments, just plain hysterical right-wing paranoia...you're right, you do look insane and paranoid. And don't give me any "2nd Amendment says". Yours is an extreme interpretation of the amendment with little backing in legal precedent. And if I agreed it was correct - which I do not - then I'd have to say it's time to amend, if not repeal, the 2nd Amendment, which was written for a very different time, with very different conditions.

[Gim]

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

Hawaii, New Hampshire and South Dakota are tied at .04 according to wiki (disregarding Florida at '-' and Alabama at a rate of '0.0' but with limited data).
So...I mean, Hawaii is one of them with its strict controls. South Dakota and New Hampshire have the same rate without those though, so the point is rather lost.

Of course, this is using firearm murder rates as opposed to fucking retarded 'gun death rates'. Because suicide isn't a gun-control-law problem.

Hawaii should be extremely strict in gun control, because once a massive shooting occurs, a large fraction of the state population will be affected. Moreover, the gunman can travel around the island quite quickly, given the small size of it, and affect pretty much everybody there.

[Tule]

I see you didn't read my comment.

Chicago's gun laws were a complete failure because they could be bypassed with a quick drive to Gary, Indiana.

And you missed part of mine:

The Chicago argument has been debunked so many time it is not even funny. You can bring in outside guns into ANY city in the U.S. and few have the problems Chicago has. Chicago should get with the rest of the county, not try to make the rest of the country a similar hellhole.

There are varying levels of difficulty involved.

New York City is in a state with strict gun laws and is surrounded by states with similarly strict laws.

Hawaii is not surrounded by any state.

New York is the safest big city in America, and Hawaii has the lowest level of gun violence in the US.

[BK117B2]

Every time one of these shootings happens everyone (by which I mean bleeding hearts and the media to which they subscribe) starts clamoring for increased gun control. The small (and growing) clique of people shouting for more control drown out voices from the other side of the fence, or make them look insane and paranoid (never mind those who don't bother to speak up in the first place).

We once impeached a president for illegally wiretapping a hotel room. Now? It's become normal to allow the government to spy on every level of our lives in the name of "national security". Our Bill of Rights might not even exist.

Sorry for calling you a Gun Nut. That was out of line. But nobody is proposing to take away your goddamned guns. Considering that all the anti-gun control arguments are strawman arguments, slippery slope arguments, just plain hysterical right-wing paranoia...you're right, you do look insane and paranoid. And don't give me any "2nd Amendment says". Yours is an extreme interpretation of the amendment with little backing in legal precedent. And if I agreed it was correct - which I do not - then I'd have to say it's time to amend, if not repeal, the 2nd Amendment, which was written for a very different time, with very different conditions.

The simple, undeniable fact is that you are wrong. There are many people desiring to take away some or all of our firearms. Hillary Clinton (ever heard of her?) supports arbitrary bans and intentionally driving up prices to make them more difficult to get.

[Tule]

You can't get guns into Honolulu without a major hassle.

Guess which state has the lowest rate of gun deaths?

Hawaii, New Hampshire and South Dakota are tied at .04 according to wiki (disregarding Florida at '-' and Alabama at a rate of '0.0' but with limited data).
So...I mean, Hawaii is one of them with its strict controls. South Dakota and New Hampshire have the same rate without those though, so the point is rather lost.

Of course, this is using firearm murder rates as opposed to fucking retarded 'gun death rates'. Because suicide isn't a gun-control-law problem.

Suicide is not a reason to ban guns altogether, any more than homicides are. But they are a good reason to implement restrictions.

Gun ownership is a major independent risk factor for suicide.

Waiting periods are an effective way to reduce suicide rates among the elderly, and studies in Australia and Switzerland have shown that reducing the number of guns in circulation reduces overall suicide rates.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Isn't there an idea like that? I think it was called... buyback.

I don't think buyback match what they are normally priced.

Not even close. They had a buyback in New London, CT after Sandy Hook, and they were offering $50 for long guns, $100 for handguns, and $150 for "assault weapons". It was far below the value of probably 95% of the firearms turned in (since the firearms were required to be functional in order to get the money).