NationStates

The balkens wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
On the issue of Ukraine. I would've also been making a greater push for Civil Rights in Russia.

Fine job there, sir! LGBT people are no longer being hunted down and beaten by Neo-nazis!

Owait. Homophobia is rampant.

He said he'd push for civil rights in Russia. And while I dislike the Russian government, I don't want silly concepts like "revenge".

Shofercia wrote:

Vistulange wrote:What are you, five years old?

"Its going to happen lol u just cant accept it lol"

Really?

Look at the grammar: its will become reality... classic! Reminds of "Tenny tenny much DeNiro in su trucky-trailer"

Chossudovsky wrote:
lol, you really think that the US corporatocracy cares about what the public thinks when it comes to foreign wars? In 2000, George W Bush was a non interventionist candidate and look how that turned out. Just because candidates are saying that they won't intervene abroad during the campaign doesn't mean that they will go against the wishes of their corporate masters when in office.

Yes, it does. You should've seen the massive PR push against the public during run up to the Iraq War. You don't think the WMD claim was made solely for the UN, right?

And how did that work out? Did public opinion prevent the US from going to war in Iraq? No. America's rulers don't care whether there is a interventionist or non-interventionist president in the White House, they will have their war and if they want they will get enough of the public to support their war through the corporate media through outright lies like they did in Iraq.

Geilinor wrote:

The balkens wrote:
Fine job there, sir! LGBT people are no longer being hunted down and beaten by Neo-nazis!

Owait. Homophobia is rampant.

He said he'd push for civil rights in Russia.

that i'd wait to see.

Shofercia wrote:

The balkens wrote:
Never said i hated the Russian people.

All my life, ive grown from hating the soviets to hating the Russians to hating the Russian government and those that bend over backwards to defend it like their life depended it. You say i want war?

Pah, i want revenge, Shof; for something that people on your bandwagon will say was "justified."

You called the 1990s, the worse time for the Russian People since Hitler invaded the USSR, "wondrous" and are practically begging for "extension" of said time frame. And since countries undergo population changes, revenge against countries isn't really justified.

70 years aint that long for population changes.

Geilinor wrote:

The balkens wrote:
Fine job there, sir! LGBT people are no longer being hunted down and beaten by Neo-nazis!

Owait. Homophobia is rampant.

He said he'd push for civil rights in Russia. And while I dislike the Russian government, I don't want silly concepts like "revenge".

Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

The balkens wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
You called the 1990s, the worse time for the Russian People since Hitler invaded the USSR, "wondrous" and are practically begging for "extension" of said time frame. And since countries undergo population changes, revenge against countries isn't really justified.

70 years aint that long for population changes.

He means that the people leading and fighting for the USSR are dead.

Shofercia wrote:

Geilinor wrote:He said he'd push for civil rights in Russia. And while I dislike the Russian government, I don't want silly concepts like "revenge".

Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

What if i said that i am part of the LBGT community, SHof? makes what you said awfully fucking stupid.

Reason why i didnt bring it up before?

No body asked.

Shofercia wrote:

Geilinor wrote:He said he'd push for civil rights in Russia. And while I dislike the Russian government, I don't want silly concepts like "revenge".

Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

Pretty much.

One person, I respect. The other, not so much.

The balkens wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

What if i said that i am part of the LBGT community, SHof? makes what you said awfully fucking stupid.

See: "I have black friends!"

Geilinor wrote:

The balkens wrote:
70 years aint that long for population changes.

He means that the people leading and fighting for the USSR are dead.

So is my grandmother but that doesnt stop me.

Shofercia wrote:

Geilinor wrote:He said he'd push for civil rights in Russia. And while I dislike the Russian government, I don't want silly concepts like "revenge".

Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

How does Putin not promote civil rights in Russia?

A lot of people talk about realpolitik on this thread, and I think sometimes it comes with a bit of an undercurrent of "this is the smart way to do things, rather than being naive about stuff like democracy". But whether something is smart is a question of what your motives and goals are.

I propose that what is happening (not just in Syria, but also in Ukraine and so on) is smart for Putin and the system he controls, but that it is not smart for Russians more generally. Generally speaking, Putin has a kind of social contract with the population: his legitimacy arises from his claimed ability to 1) provide economic security to the Russian people and, to a lesser extent, 2) maintain Russia's importance as a world power and rival to the US/NATO.

From my, admittedly biased, perspective, I consider 1) to be more important. I have an inkling that the same goes for a majority of Russian people, if they had to choose between the two. When things were going well, that choice did not have to be made. But with oil prices where they are, I am not so sure that Russia can afford to pursue both goals at once. The Russian economy is phenomenally dependent on government spending and activity to work. Much of the economic security that Putin's system generates comes from public sector employment and from government projects for private sector enterprises. And the Russian government's financial position is closely related to oil and gas income, which is much lower than it was. That's largely what makes its economy and currency so vulnerable, and forces its central bank into extreme actions, just to prevent meltdowns.

In such a situation, I think a wiser course would have been to focus on 1). In terms of economic benefits, the fighting in Ukraine and now the intervention in Syria are marginal at best. But they sure are expensive. As is modernisation and expansion of military capabilities in general. The benefit of all of this is purely aimed at 2), and it comes at the expense of 1) - the sanctions are the most direct link, but there are plenty of others via the continued deterioration of the general government sector's balance sheet.

For Putin, this all makes sense. Not only is he a nationalist who would generally prefer a world with Russia as a world superpower to one in which it is not. But also he can maintain his social contract even when 1) is doing poorly as long as he can keep 2) going, and thereby keep his popularity high and opposition to his system marginal. And he can perhaps keep doing this until it is time for him to retire and enjoy the fruits of his labour. But it doesn't take a genius to see that a petro-state cannot maintain world power status when it becomes excessively reliant on high energy prices. The US was able to out-compete the USSR for much the same reason, so we know how this story ends. And furthermore we now have China, which also offers a far more diversified and solid economic basis for "world power" status than Russia does. So I don't see how a focus on maintaining or improving Russia's standing in the military or foreign policy power stakes is much of a benefit to the Russian people. It will just become more and more expensive, forcing ever increasing reliance on oil and gas revenue.

Chossudovsky wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

How does Putin not support civil rights in Russia?

the mans a populist. What the russian people want? they get.

Chossudovsky wrote:And how did that work out? Did public opinion prevent the US from going to war in Iraq? No. America's rulers don't care whether there is a interventionist or non-interventionist president in the White House, they will have their war and if they want they will get enough of the public to support their war through the corporate media through outright lies like they did in Iraq.

No, it didn't, because Americans were fooled. However, when someone attempted a repeat with Syria, Americans weren't fooled; as a result, the US didn't place boots on the ground in Syria.

The balkens wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
You called the 1990s, the worse time for the Russian People since Hitler invaded the USSR, "wondrous" and are practically begging for "extension" of said time frame. And since countries undergo population changes, revenge against countries isn't really justified.

70 years aint that long for population changes.

Yeah, it is. 1.7 million were born in Russia in 2014. Roughly. Multiplying that by a factor of 70, that'd be 119 million innocent people that would be punished. I'd say that's a very significant population change.

Chossudovsky wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

How does Putin not promote civil rights in Russia?

How does he?

Shofercia wrote:

Chossudovsky wrote:And how did that work out? Did public opinion prevent the US from going to war in Iraq? No. America's rulers don't care whether there is a interventionist or non-interventionist president in the White House, they will have their war and if they want they will get enough of the public to support their war through the corporate media through outright lies like they did in Iraq.

No, it didn't, because Americans were fooled. However, when someone attempted a repeat with Syria, Americans weren't fooled; as a result, the US didn't place boots on the ground in Syria.

The balkens wrote:
70 years aint that long for population changes.

Yeah, it is. 1.7 million were born in Russia in 2014. Roughly. Multiplying that by a factor of 70, that'd be 119 million innocent people that would be punished. I'd say that's a very significant population change.

Never said i want millions to die, shof.

Shofercia wrote:

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:The US will always intervene. Regardless of what isolationist lipservice a candidate pays. The President is a man, not an island.

Really? Because I remember how quickly Obama backpedaled on Syria, right after the US public opinion turned against that intervention. Congress too.

Barry found a way. Soft touch as it is.

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Really? Because I remember how quickly Obama backpedaled on Syria, right after the US public opinion turned against that intervention. Congress too.

Barry found a way. Soft touch as it is.

Couldve gone for something more....Explosive.

Shofercia wrote:

Chossudovsky wrote:And how did that work out? Did public opinion prevent the US from going to war in Iraq? No. America's rulers don't care whether there is a interventionist or non-interventionist president in the White House, they will have their war and if they want they will get enough of the public to support their war through the corporate media through outright lies like they did in Iraq.

No, it didn't, because Americans were fooled. However, when someone attempted a repeat with Syria, Americans weren't fooled; as a result, the US didn't place boots on the ground in Syria.

No, they just provided support for terrorists groups, bringing anarchy to Syria and prolonging a civil war that should have been over long ago. Just because the participants aren't waving the stars and stripes doesn't mean that the US is not intervening in Syria.

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Really? Because I remember how quickly Obama backpedaled on Syria, right after the US public opinion turned against that intervention. Congress too.

Barry found a way. Soft touch as it is.

22 September 2014 - present

That page refers to the airstrikes against ISIS, which have ended up getting Russia involved.

Geilinor wrote:

The balkens wrote:
70 years aint that long for population changes.

He means that the people leading and fighting for the USSR are dead.

No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that new ones are being born. 1.7 mil was Russia's births in 2014. Multiply that by 70, that's 119 million people, who are completely innocent of deeds 70 years ago, on account of not being born yet.

The balkens wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

What if i said that i am part of the LBGT community, SHof? makes what you said awfully fucking stupid.

Reason why i didnt bring it up before?

No body asked.

No it wouldn't. You said you're in this for "revenge". Your words, not mine.

Vistulange wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

Pretty much.

One person, I respect. The other, not so much.

The balkens wrote:
What if i said that i am part of the LBGT community, SHof? makes what you said awfully fucking stupid.

See: "I have black friends!"

Zing!

The balkens wrote:

Geilinor wrote:He means that the people leading and fighting for the USSR are dead.

So is my grandmother but that doesnt stop me.

The poor woman!

Chossudovsky wrote:

Shofercia wrote:
Balk doesn't care about the context; for him it's just another chance to flame Russia. We all saw what Balkens said about Russia and Russians. He wants revenge, and if thousands of elderly die of hunger of thousands of kids die of cold, that's just collateral damage for him. He's not in this for Human Rights. He wants Revenge. And that, Geilinor, is the difference between you and Balkens. You hate Putin because he doesn't promote Civil Rights in Russia. Balkens despises Putin because under Putin, Russia became strong, but in order to get people like you on his side, he'll jump on the Human Rights bandwagon.

How does Putin not promote civil rights in Russia?

By passing laws restrictive laws that are way too broad.

Geilinor wrote:

Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Barry found a way. Soft touch as it is.

22 September 2014 - present

That page refers to the airstrikes against ISIS, which have ended up getting Russia involved.

Russia was going to be involved irrespective of airstrikes against ISIS. And that's a very soft touch, one that ensures that America doesn't end up stuck in a quagmire.

Shofercia wrote:

Geilinor wrote:He means that the people leading and fighting for the USSR are dead.

No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that new ones are being born. 1.7 mil was Russia's births in 2014. Multiply that by 70, that's 119 million people, who are completely innocent of deeds 70 years ago, on account of not being born yet.

The balkens wrote:
What if i said that i am part of the LBGT community, SHof? makes what you said awfully fucking stupid.

Reason why i didnt bring it up before?

No body asked.

No it wouldn't. You said you're in this for "revenge". Your words, not mine.

Vistulange wrote:
Pretty much.

One person, I respect. The other, not so much.



See: "I have black friends!"

Zing!

The balkens wrote:
So is my grandmother but that doesnt stop me.

The poor woman!

gr8 b8 m8.

Perhaps i have overestimated you.

The balkens wrote:gr8 b8 m8.

Perhaps i have overestimated you.

You're the one who brought her in this, not me. Personally, I don't think that you should be getting revenge on the elderly, unless they were involved or abetted crimes such as rape and/or murder.

Vistulange wrote:

Chossudovsky wrote:
How does Putin not promote civil rights in Russia?

How does he?

By protecting the rights of Russians in Crimea.
By bringing a resolution to the wars in the Caucasus.
By introducing democratic elections.
By restoring basic state provisions like education, healthcare and pensions that were threatened in the chaos of the 90s
By safeguarding Russian culture

How does he not promote civil rights?

Shofercia wrote:

The balkens wrote:gr8 b8 m8.

Perhaps i have overestimated you.

You're the one who brought her in this, not me. Personally, I don't think that you should be getting revenge on the elderly, unless they were involved or abetted crimes such as rape and/or murder.

Good thing i never factored you in on what i stand for and against.

If i did, id say "Edgy white teenagers" in my sig.