Russian airstrikes in Syria

[Conserative Morality]

The point is that realpolitik didn't work when the US tried it in Iran in 1953 and it won't work when Turkey tries it. Learn from our mistakes rather than making them yourself. Foreign policy realism led to two world wars and a Cold War. Idealism led to the United Nations.

Idealism in the aftermath of WW2, even, led to German and Japanese democracy. We Allies may not have started it on ideals, but talk democracy enough and you'll find you can't just swerve away last minute.

[The balkens]

As I understand it, the RF is bombing FSA positions because they're buddy-buddy with Assad. They have no reason to bomb ISIS, especially while ISIS fights the FSA.

All sides are attacking ISIS, and ISIS is attacking everyone.

But not russia.

[Shofercia]

America's awesome. I don't hate America. America is a beautiful country and an asset to the World.

I hate some stupid politicians who think it's a great idea to listen to those who have wet dreams of Russia collapsing and America ruling the World, and prefer wasting money on pointless foreign adventures while America's middle class eats the tax bills, and teachers continue to be underfunded. Oh, and said group also loves to pretend that they speak for all Americans, akin to Bush claiming that he's got a mandate after losing the popular vote. That's who most of my posts are geared against.

If I hated America, I'd encourage these groups, because the more money America wastes abroad, the less money the teachers and middle class get at home, and that's the thing that's truly fucking over America. It's not the job of my tax dollars to fund someone's wet dreams of World domination. It's not the job of my tax dollars to go after every fucking dictator in a funny hat. I want my tax dollars to go towards improving education, making healthcare more efficient, rebuilding infrastructure, promoting direct democracy in the US, etc.

I don't want America to collapse. I don't want Russia to collapse. I don't want countries to collapse; I'm not the wet dreamer who's out there with a boner, hoping that millions suffer because of abstract idiocy. I'm not the country collapse addicted junky saying "nothing of value will be lost when the US collapses". I don't engage in that pathetic, insane and delusion crap.

Welcome to being a superpower, too bad russia doesnt know what that is like.

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

[New Werpland]

There are other reasons for why democracy doesn't work well when imposed by the West than "Arabs are not capable of Democracy". And I find this strange coming from someone who purports to be pro Liberal Democracy.

Pro-liberal democracy in Turkey. I don't give a damn about other countries. As long as they are allies of Turkey and our interests, they can be dictatorships if they want.

That's how the United States rolled, that's what made them an influential country. While Turkey cannot be a superpower, nor should it be, we can very well be a regional power and we should be. The way to that doesn't lie through hugs or kisses, but guns and tanks if need be.

You're pro CHP as well, that makes sense as their founder was all about not applying western values and liberal democracy on a country which lacked them.

And I see a contradiction here, pragmatism is what fucked up the Middle East, now your saying it's made the United States a super power?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Welcome to being a superpower, too bad russia doesnt know what that is like.

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

Being a superpower is about keeping the ball rolling and shouldering the costs.

[The balkens]

Welcome to being a superpower, too bad russia doesnt know what that is like.

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

Being a superpower is also about influence, personally i dont care what happens in the middle east AS long as they are not causing shit that bothers Us.

The taliban, Saddam in the 90s all learnt this the hard way.

[Shofercia]

All sides are attacking ISIS, and ISIS is attacking everyone.

But not russia.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/609 ... acks-Syria

"As a result of our air strikes on Islamic State targets, we have managed to disrupt their control system, the terrorist organisation's supply lines, and also caused significant damage to the infrastructure used to prepare acts of terror," the ministry announced... Britain's defence minister Michael Fallon said that only one in 20 Russian air strikes in Syria were aimed at the hardline Islamic State forces

Pretty sure dropping bombs on ISIS at least once = dropping bombs on ISIS. Of course knowing that requires keeping with the news.

[Geilinor]

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

I think Putin has forgotten that his domestic front even exists.

[The balkens]

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

I think Putin has forgotten that his domestic front even exists.

Not like they care, they WANTED this. After all, this latest charade of russian military power is a distraction from a faltering economy and depleting personal freedoms. Such as life in Putins Russia.

[Vistulange]

Pro-liberal democracy in Turkey. I don't give a damn about other countries. As long as they are allies of Turkey and our interests, they can be dictatorships if they want.

That's how the United States rolled, that's what made them an influential country. While Turkey cannot be a superpower, nor should it be, we can very well be a regional power and we should be. The way to that doesn't lie through hugs or kisses, but guns and tanks if need be.

Wow I never thought I'd watch the radicalization process run its course in one sitting. I guess nationalism has that effect.

I am not a nationalist. I do not care if the people in Turkey are of the Armenian nation, or the Kurdish nation, or the Turkish nation. What matters to me is that they are citizens of the Republic of Turkey. Their descent is of no relevance to me. I am a patriot, and I seek the interests of anybody with a Turkish citizenship regardless of their nation. If we take "nation" as "country", yes, I am a nationalist, but a civic nationalist at most.

Calling me a radical in an attempt to smear me doesn't help you convince me to your point, which, frankly, isn't mentioned.

Pro-liberal democracy in Turkey. I don't give a damn about other countries. As long as they are allies of Turkey and our interests, they can be dictatorships if they want.

That's how the United States rolled, that's what made them an influential country. While Turkey cannot be a superpower, nor should it be, we can very well be a regional power and we should be. The way to that doesn't lie through hugs on kisses, but guns and tanks if need be.

You know, you couldve had your regional power status some months ago at Kobani.

But no. make America do all the work. as usual.

And why should we have intervened? The Turkish State's job is not to save Kurds nor to establish a state for them. If we can guarantee that the Kurds will be friendly to Turkey, we can carve out a Kurdish state from Syria and Northern Iraq. If they won't be friendly to us, why bother?

Pro-liberal democracy in Turkey. I don't give a damn about other countries. As long as they are allies of Turkey and our interests, they can be dictatorships if they want.

That's how the United States rolled, that's what made them an influential country. While Turkey cannot be a superpower, nor should it be, we can very well be a regional power and we should be. The way to that doesn't lie through hugs on kisses, but guns and tanks if need be.

No.

No.

Not at all.

If you'll notice, of all those dictatorships we backed, the vast, vast majority of those dictatorships? Gone or turned against us.

Our fellow liberal democratic states? They've stood by us.

WW2 and its aftermath made us a superpower, not the realpolitik of the Cold War. We've been coasting on that and our good position vis a vis population and industry ever since.

The United States, by its very location, has little worries. To be frank, those dictatorships have no way of harming you. We are on the border of the Middle-East. There are no liberal democratic states in the Middle-East and there never will be in the near future. Not with the United States supporting one of the worst dictatorships in the region, Saudi Arabia, which naturally will suppress any regional democratic movement in order to protect its own institutions from being affected, through soft or hard power.

Thus, we play the game by its rules, not some arbitrary idealism the West sets for us in an attempt to dictate our foreign policy.

Pro-liberal democracy in Turkey. I don't give a damn about other countries. As long as they are allies of Turkey and our interests, they can be dictatorships if they want.

That's how the United States rolled, that's what made them an influential country. While Turkey cannot be a superpower, nor should it be, we can very well be a regional power and we should be. The way to that doesn't lie through hugs on kisses, but guns and tanks if need be.

The point is that realpolitik didn't work when the US tried it in Iran in 1953 and it won't work when Turkey tries it. Learn from our mistakes rather than making them yourself. Foreign policy realism led to two world wars and a Cold War. Idealism led to the United Nations.

Iran was not realpolitik, it was a miserable excuse for an attempt at it. The United States merely tried to save the day without thinking ahead and not understanding the regional and local dynamics of the Middle-East and Iran. Your mistakes are not our mistakes. Turkey is not the United States. We know the region better than you do, we are more aware of the region and ultimately, we are directly affected by the region, unlike the United States, so we really don't have the luxury of making the mistakes the United States did. The United States has no real consequences from messing up in the Middle-East. We do. That makes us a better force to intervene than the United States, precisely because we have more to lose from not doing so, or doing so in a messy manner.

Also, that idealism of the United Nations is functioning beautifully, as we can see.

Pro-liberal democracy in Turkey. I don't give a damn about other countries. As long as they are allies of Turkey and our interests, they can be dictatorships if they want.

That's how the United States rolled, that's what made them an influential country. While Turkey cannot be a superpower, nor should it be, we can very well be a regional power and we should be. The way to that doesn't lie through hugs or kisses, but guns and tanks if need be.

You're pro CHP as well, that makes sense as their founder was all about not applying western values and liberal democracy on a country which lacked them.

And I see a contradiction here, pragmatism is what fucked up the Middle East, now your saying it's made the United States a super power?

You are woefully misinformed if you believe that Mustafa Kemal's CHP was anything like the modern CHP.

As for the second sentence, why should they be mutually exclusive? The Middle-East being fucked up is not necessarily against the United States' benefit. The United States did what it believed to be in its interests and fucked up the Middle-East as a result, if we have to go by that example, which, mind you, I do not believe in.

That's okay. The United States does not have a task of ensuring that the Middle-East is okay. Its task is to look after its citizens. Same with us.

[New Frenco Empire]

The current Russian government is not that awful to its own citizens; but, Iran is an evil and murderous regime that seeks to exterminate Christians and Jews, just as ISIS does. The Russians have launched 2-3 serious airstrikes against ISIS, but all the SERIOUS Russian and Iranian effort is going towards supporting the ASSad regime in Syria. We should focus on ISIS in Iraq, and then move into Syria after letting all the Syrian troops, rebel terrorists, and ISIS fighters kill each other. There are SIX evil groups in the region who pose threats to security :
Iran
Russia
ASSad's Syrian regime
The rebels fighting ASSad, who are largely composed of Al-Quaeda left-overs, with a VERY SMALL amount of "moderates"(a relative term there)
Taliban left-overs; like the ones who took over Kunduz in Iraq
ISIS

The order we should fight them (or take highly aggressive action against) is:
1.ISIS
2.Iran
3.ASSad
4.The rebels
5.The Taliban
6.Russia

The US is unable to fight Iran or Russia in the Middle East, and since they're protecting Assad, fighting Assad would also lead to defeat, much like the US was unable to fight Vietnam in Vietnam.

The US could easily stomp Iran and Russia (assuming the U.S is fighting them in the Middle East) into the ground in a basic conventional war, much like we did to the Viet Cong and NVA. The only reason we were "unable" to complete the mission was dissatisfaction and unpopularity back at home. The only reason America wouldn't be able to completely defeat it's opposition in the Middle East would boil down to public opinion.

Can you guess why we haven't deployed boots against ISIS?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

I think Putin has forgotten that his domestic front even exists.

Damn dude. Savage. No chill.

Wow I never thought I'd watch the radicalization process run its course in one sitting. I guess nationalism has that effect.

I am not a nationalist. I do not care if the people in Turkey are of the Armenian nation, or the Kurdish nation, or the Turkish nation. What matters to me is that they are citizens of the Republic of Turkey.

Literally American style nationalism.

[Uxupox]

Wow I never thought I'd watch the radicalization process run its course in one sitting. I guess nationalism has that effect.

I am not a nationalist. I do not care if the people in Turkey are of the Armenian nation, or the Kurdish nation, or the Turkish nation. What matters to me is that they are citizens of the Republic of Turkey. Their descent is of no relevance to me. I am a patriot, and I seek the interests of anybody with a Turkish citizenship regardless of their nation. If we take "nation" as "country", yes, I am a nationalist, but a civic nationalist at most.

Calling me a radical in an attempt to smear me doesn't help you convince me to your point, which, frankly, isn't mentioned.

You know, you couldve had your regional power status some months ago at Kobani.

But no. make America do all the work. as usual.

And why should we have intervened? The Turkish State's job is not to save Kurds nor to establish a state for them. If we can guarantee that the Kurds will be friendly to Turkey, we can carve out a Kurdish state from Syria and Northern Iraq. If they won't be friendly to us, why bother?

No.

No.

Not at all.

If you'll notice, of all those dictatorships we backed, the vast, vast majority of those dictatorships? Gone or turned against us.

Our fellow liberal democratic states? They've stood by us.

WW2 and its aftermath made us a superpower, not the realpolitik of the Cold War. We've been coasting on that and our good position vis a vis population and industry ever since.

The United States, by its very location, has little worries. To be frank, those dictatorships have no way of harming you. We are on the border of the Middle-East. There are no liberal democratic states in the Middle-East and there never will be in the near future. Not with the United States supporting one of the worst dictatorships in the region, Saudi Arabia, which naturally will suppress any regional democratic movement in order to protect its own institutions from being affected, through soft or hard power.

Thus, we play the game by its rules, not some arbitrary idealism the West sets for us in an attempt to dictate our foreign policy.

The point is that realpolitik didn't work when the US tried it in Iran in 1953 and it won't work when Turkey tries it. Learn from our mistakes rather than making them yourself. Foreign policy realism led to two world wars and a Cold War. Idealism led to the United Nations.

Iran was not realpolitik, it was a miserable excuse for an attempt at it. The United States merely tried to save the day without thinking ahead and not understanding the regional and local dynamics of the Middle-East and Iran. Your mistakes are not our mistakes. Turkey is not the United States. We know the region better than you do, we are more aware of the region and ultimately, we are directly affected by the region, unlike the United States, so we really don't have the luxury of making the mistakes the United States did. The United States has no real consequences from messing up in the Middle-East. We do. That makes us a better force to intervene than the United States, precisely because we have more to lose from not doing so, or doing so in a messy manner.

Also, that idealism of the United Nations is functioning beautifully, as we can see.

So uh why the extermination of the Kurdish if ya wanna work with them?

[New Werpland]

Also, that idealism of the United Nations is functioning beautifully, as we can see.

As in not functioning at all because the United Nations isn't idealistic.

[Shofercia]

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

Being a superpower is about keeping the ball rolling and shouldering the costs.

If there's no real incentive to be a superpower, why be one? Looks like most Americans no likey your idea: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/0 ... ndependent

Overall
28 Percent- Indispenable
36 Percent- Moneyball
36 Percent- Independent

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

Being a superpower is also about influence, personally i dont care what happens in the middle east AS long as they are not causing shit that bothers Us.

The taliban, Saddam in the 90s all learnt this the hard way.

For someone who doesn't care about the Middle East, you certainly post a lot on that topic.

[Vistulange]

So uh why the extermination of the Kurdish if ya wanna work with them?

Proof of extermination, please.

Unless you think that the PKK is representative of the entire Kurdish people and that the PKK is not a terrorist organization and that they shit rainbows.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

If there's no real incentive to be a superpower, why be one?

Because somebody has to. And it's in the majority of the globe's best interest that it be America. Washington gets it. Why can't you?

Looks like most Americans no likey your idea:

Average Americans are incapable of seeing the larger geopolitical picture, much like the majority of the population. Hence why there are exemplary Americans, like myself.

[Geilinor]

And why should we have intervened? The Turkish State's job is not to save Kurds nor to establish a state for them.

Because ISIS is a terrible organization that threatens you directly.

[Shofercia]

Being a superpower is about assraping your domestic front so that you can bomb some stupid dictators? Are you sure about that? Because if that's the case, fuck being a superpower.

I think Putin has forgotten that his domestic front even exists.

You do realize that Russians pay less into the government in taxes, than Russians get from the government in revenue, right? Putin's recent land redistribution program suggests that he hasn't.

The US is unable to fight Iran or Russia in the Middle East, and since they're protecting Assad, fighting Assad would also lead to defeat, much like the US was unable to fight Vietnam in Vietnam.

The US could easily stomp Iran and Russia (assuming the U.S is fighting them in the Middle East) into the ground in a basic conventional war, much like we did to the Viet Cong and NVA. The only reason we were "unable" to complete the mission was dissatisfaction and unpopularity back at home. The only reason America wouldn't be able to completely defeat it's opposition in the Middle East would boil down to public opinion.

Can you guess why we haven't deployed boots against ISIS?

Your post doesn't take into account several things, including: impact of war on the economy, impact of US morale on the war, impact of unconventional warfare on the home front, impact of a hostile populace, impact of...

Conventional wars are a thing of the past.

[Geilinor]

So uh why the extermination of the Kurdish if ya wanna work with them?

Proof of extermination, please.

Unless you think that the PKK is representative of the entire Kurdish people and that the PKK is not a terrorist organization and that they shit rainbows.

It looks like you think the PKK is representative of the Kurdish population. You just said that it's okay to not bat an eye while ISIS massacres them.

[Uxupox]

So uh why the extermination of the Kurdish if ya wanna work with them?

Proof of extermination, please.

Unless you think that the PKK is representative of the entire Kurdish people and that the PKK is not a terrorist organization and that they shit rainbows.

Yea extermination isn't the word for it. Repression.

[Shofercia]

If there's no real incentive to be a superpower, why be one?

Because somebody has to. And it's in the majority of the globe's best interest that it be America. Washington gets it. Why can't you?

Looks like most Americans no likey your idea:

Average Americans are incapable of seeing the larger geopolitical picture, much like the majority of the population. Hence why there are exemplary Americans, like myself.

Team America: World Force Police!

Oh, and you're not exceptional. The pro interventionist candidates are being utterly pounded in the Republican Primaries. America's a democracy, and the Age of Interventionism is over. The American People said so. Get over it.

[Geilinor]

Also, that idealism of the United Nations is functioning beautifully, as we can see.

As in not functioning at all because the United Nations isn't idealistic.

Even if it isn't functioning well, at least it hasn't killed as many people as two world wars.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Team America: World Force Police!

Actually literally this. The rest of the world can't be trusted to not lose its shit, so America has to nudge them back into line from time to time.

Oh, and you're not exceptional. The pro interventionist candidates are being utterly pounded in the Republican Primaries. America's a democracy, and the Age of Interventionism is over. The American People said so. Get over it.

Thank god. Maybe we can stop pussyfooting around and get this neocolonialism party started off right.

[New Werpland]

You are woefully misinformed if you believe that Mustafa Kemal's CHP was anything like the modern CHP.

As for the second sentence, why should they be mutually exclusive? The Middle-East being fucked up is not necessarily against the United States' benefit. The United States did what it believed to be in its interests and fucked up the Middle-East as a result, if we have to go by that example, which, mind you, I do not believe in.

That's okay. The United States does not have a task of ensuring that the Middle-East is okay. Its task is to look after its citizens. Same with us.

Both are/were secular and center-left.

It is in the United States' (and it's citizens') interest to gain allies in the Middle East, rather than to destabilize it.