Taxes are a form of Theft

[Big Jim P]

Then why don't you run yourself or do a write in ballot?

Good idea. Big Jim P for POTUS!

[Washington Resistance Army]

Then why don't you run yourself or do a write in ballot?

Good idea. Big Jim P for POTUS!

Vote for Jim and get a free gun.

[Big Jim P]

Good idea. Big Jim P for POTUS!

Vote for Jim and get a free gun.

Nope. Vote for Jim, he'll buy himself a new gun with your taxes.

[Infected Mushroom]

No, it does not and cannot. Without the consent from a party to form an agreement, there is no contract.

your parent were the first party. the country was the second, and the contract is citizenship.

you don't have to be a citizen though to be bound by the laws of the state, you just need to be in range of its powers

its not contractual, it simply unconditionally operates on anyone who is within range

when you are 18, you more realistically can escape its powers

consent plays no role in any of this

[Infected Mushroom]

Which is relevant when you're a child. Most people eventually grow up

Yes, and then you, as an adult, have not renounced your citizenship.

the government's powers to make laws that control you is not dependant on whether or not you are a citizen or have citizenship, it simply depends on whether or not you are in the range of its powers or not

and it unconditionally affects you so long as you are in range, period

[Infected Mushroom]

I'm not sure how that follows logically

Its quite simple if you don't vote you and refuse to participate in the democratic process you don't get a say in whose in office and what polices they enact. What's so hard to get? Since you hate taxes so much but refuse to vote get the rest of your apathetic friends and refuse to pay taxes to the system you hate so much.

so tell me, which political party supports the abolition of taxes?

None? Then don't try to trick me into voting to promote the status quo with some incrementalist argument

[Big Jim P]

Yes, and then you, as an adult, have not renounced your citizenship.

the government's powers to make laws that control you is not dependant on whether or not you are a citizen or have citizenship, it simply depends on whether or not you are in the range of its powers or not

and it unconditionally affects you so long as you are in range, period

Unless you are capable and willing to resist. The reach of Americas power is global, but not everyone is is under its control.

[Maqo]

That's not actually what fee simple means.

For the purposes of this discussion, its sufficiently accurate. The legal agreement I have with the government of the ownership of my land is non-allodial ownership.

As for state ownership, as I have already pointed out: much of the private land in the US was privately owned before the US government ever existed and passed down without any period of ownership by the people as a whole. For that land, government has never even had the opportunity to retain certain powers when transfering it as it has never had the opportunity to transfer it at all.

There MAY be instances of land that the government doesn't own. I think that is unlikely (they tend to pass laws that mean you cant inherit or sell allodial title to citizen).
The point is that the general statement (based on propert rights, all taxation is theft) is too strong, demonstrated by the fact of government ownership of (most) land giving them jurisdiction over the people on that land. It means that if you want to claim taxation is theft, you must show that the land you own or reside on is not owned by the state, on a case by case basis.

Can you give an example of land you think is not owned by your State? You've said before that your property is not: can you prove that?

[BK117B2]

That's not actually what fee simple means.

For the purposes of this discussion, its sufficiently accurate. The legal agreement I have with the government of the ownership of my land is non-allodial ownership.

As for state ownership, as I have already pointed out: much of the private land in the US was privately owned before the US government ever existed and passed down without any period of ownership by the people as a whole. For that land, government has never even had the opportunity to retain certain powers when transfering it as it has never had the opportunity to transfer it at all.

There MAY be instances of land that the government doesn't own. I think that is unlikely (they tend to pass laws that mean you cant inherit or sell allodial title to citizen).
The point is that the general statement (based on propert rights, all taxation is theft) is too strong, demonstrated by the fact of government ownership of (most) land giving them jurisdiction over the people on that land. It means that if you want to claim taxation is theft, you must show that the land you own or reside on is not owned by the state, on a case by case basis.

Can you give an example of land you think is not owned by your State? You've said before that your property is not: can you prove that?

I couldn't speak to your country, but most land in the US is privately owned. Here, fee simple and allodial mean nearly the same thing as the government treats them basically the same.

Obviously not all taxation is theft. My taxation cannot be theft as I consent. I'd go so far as to say that a quite large majority are with permission, and thus not theft. I'm pointing out that it certainly can be theft. In a few cases, it has been.

[Coeverden]

I can't tell if the OP is serious or not.

[San Lumen]

Its quite simple if you don't vote you and refuse to participate in the democratic process you don't get a say in whose in office and what polices they enact. What's so hard to get? Since you hate taxes so much but refuse to vote get the rest of your apathetic friends and refuse to pay taxes to the system you hate so much.

so tell me, which political party supports the abolition of taxes?

None? Then don't try to trick me into voting to promote the status quo with some incrementalist argument

So then get all your apathetic friends to refuse to pay taxes since you hate the system so much and think voting is trivial and a waste of time. I'm sorry the education system has failed you so. Why don;t you go move to the Western Sahara where there is no formal government and no taxes to pay?

[Coeverden]

I once reported an acquaintance for not paying taxes. No idea how he got away with it for so long, but it stopped.

So, that tells you my opinion on the subject. If you don't pay taxes, go to jail or have assets seized.

[Infected Mushroom]

so tell me, which political party supports the abolition of taxes?

None? Then don't try to trick me into voting to promote the status quo with some incrementalist argument

So then get all your apathetic friends to refuse to pay taxes since you hate the system so much and think voting is trivial and a waste of time. I'm sorry the education system has failed you so. Why don;t you go move to the Western Sahara where there is no formal government and no taxes to pay?

you are conflating a distrust/disengagement with the voting system with political apathy

there can be an overlap but there doesn't have to be

also, what does the Sahara Desert and the failure of the education system have to do with anything?

[Infected Mushroom]

I once reported an acquaintance for not paying taxes. No idea how he got away with it for so long, but it stopped.

So, that tells you my opinion on the subject. If you don't pay taxes, go to jail or have assets seized.

so they do have a secret police...

[Gauntleted Fist]

I once reported an acquaintance for not paying taxes. No idea how he got away with it for so long, but it stopped.

So, that tells you my opinion on the subject. If you don't pay taxes, go to jail or have assets seized.

so they do have a secret police...

...the IRS?

[Maqo]

I couldn't speak to your country, but most land in the US is privately owned. Here, fee simple and allodial mean nearly the same thing as the government treats them basically the same.

Nearly the same = enough difference to matter.

The state hardly ever exercises its full rights. But the fact that it does have those rights is the opening needed for it to be the state.


Essentially, property that is wholly privately owned is not part of the state. If the state completely sold all rights (or never owned the rights) that is tantamount to surrendering territory to a foreign state.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

so they do have a secret police...

...the IRS?

The IRS is literally the Gestapo!

[BK117B2]

Nearly the same = enough difference to matter.

Just not in a way that changes the topic at hand.

The state hardly ever exercises its full rights. But the fact that it does have those rights is the opening needed for it to be the state.

States don't have rights, they are just organizational structures designed to act as proxies for people.

Essentially, property that is wholly privately owned is not part of the state. If the state completely sold all rights (or never owned the rights) that is tantamount to surrendering territory to a foreign state.

But as the state doesn't view it that way and doesn't actually behave that way, that's not how things work in the real world.

[Wolfmanne2]

You studied law. You know there are states. You know that states exercise full sovereignty over a territory. Full sovereignty, the state is legally capable of taxing people, things, institutions and corporations. By working and living in a particular state you accept the rules of that state. If you don't want to pay taxes, go live in a state where you don't have to pay taxes.

Unreasonable assumption.

Agreed. With all the crap that Infected Mushrooms comes out with I highly doubt he's a law student. If so, god forbid anyone who has to be represented by him in the future.

[Daburuetchi]

Unreasonable assumption.

Agreed. With all the crap that Infected Mushrooms comes out with I highly doubt he's a law student. If so, god forbid anyone who has to be represented by him in the future.

"I move to have this case dismissed on the basis that benevolent dictatorship is clearly the only form of legitimate government and that citizens of a country should not be subject to that country's sovereign authority because it flies in the face of all that is Ayn Rand"

[Ifreann]

I can't tell if the OP is serious or not.

The OP is either always serious or never serious.

---

I once reported an acquaintance for not paying taxes. No idea how he got away with it for so long, but it stopped.

So, that tells you my opinion on the subject. If you don't pay taxes, go to jail or have assets seized.

so they do have a secret police...

No they don't.

[Mavorpen]

I can't tell if the OP is serious or not.

The OP is either always serious or never serious.

---

so they do have a secret police...

No they don't.

Yes, th

[Sociobiology]

your parent were the first party. the country was the second, and the contract is citizenship.

you don't have to be a citizen though to be bound by the laws of the state, you just need to be in range of its powers

true you just have fewer rights, you are bond by laws of the state as long as you are in the state, just as you are bound by the rules of a community while you are in that community. Its part of the contract, the state provided protection for its citizens. to do that the laws have to apply to everyone inside it. It's been tried other ways and those work very poorly.
Your presence without citizenship is your consent to the less contract.

its not contractual, it simply unconditionally operates on anyone who is within range

you are aware of location specific contracts right, your presence is your consent. The state even goes out of its way to make the rules available. a great example is getting on a train or ship by doing so you are giving consent.

when you are 18, you more realistically can escape its powers

no when you are 18 you are capable of making the decision for yourself instead of having it made for you.
The state bends over backwards to make it painfully easy for you to leave if you want to.

consent plays no role in any of this

of course it does, your the one who mistakenly thinks the only form of consent is writing your name on a piece of paper.

[Senkaku]

The OP is either always serious or never serious.

---

No they don't.

Yes, th

*Another One Bites the Dust plays*
The Internal Revenue Service strikes again.

[Sociobiology]

Its quite simple if you don't vote you and refuse to participate in the democratic process you don't get a say in whose in office and what polices they enact. What's so hard to get? Since you hate taxes so much but refuse to vote get the rest of your apathetic friends and refuse to pay taxes to the system you hate so much.

so tell me, which political party supports the abolition of taxes?

the tea party?