Taxes are a form of Theft

[Teutonic Terror]

I think taxes are a form of theft. For those who say they provide stuff for paying taxes I have a situation for you. Let's say I rob you at gunpoint and take your money. The next day I give you a sandwich. Does that make it ok?

Let's say I live in a community that you own. You have to pay for maintenance, defense, construction, police, and maybe even welfare. You then enforce a tax so it would be possible to do all of those things.

So no, your metaphor is not okay. However, my own is okay, and it's also much more accurate.

[Infected Mushroom]

the government has a responsibility to protect me, regardless of taxes

they have the power over me and with great power comes great responsibility; they should unconditionally provide for the people, its why we gave them power in the first place; we didn't give it to them so that the would continue to steal and feed from us

And the government needs to make money to protect you. Police, fire, and the military don't work for free. Taxes just happen to be the way they fund their protection of you and services for you.

then they can work for that money themselves (instead of taking other people's rightfully earned income)

I suggest they start their own businesses for that end; it would also help with unemployment

[No Serfdom]

the government has a responsibility to protect me, regardless of taxes

they have the power over me and with great power comes great responsibility; they should unconditionally provide for the people, its why we gave them power in the first place; we didn't give it to them so that the would continue to steal and feed from us

And the government needs to make money to protect you. Police, fire, and the military don't work for free. Taxes just happen to be the way they fund their protection of you and services for you.

Fire departments actually often do work for free.

[New Werpland]

"If we didn't ignore property rights, property rights wouldn't exist"

"Nobody's going to take my stuff if there isn't a reason for them not to!"

[Sovia Islands]

... If the theives then went on to fund your roads, public education, and hire countless police and millitary to insure your safety, and the theives themselves only theive if the nation of people getting stolen from publicly stated that they were the best theif.

[Aquitayne]

What do you think NSG? Is taxation nothing more than a form of theft by the powerful? Are we ruled by a society of elite and powerful bandits; is this what Western liberal society comes down to?

No. Taxation is an insurance policy that guarantees essential services and infrastructure are present and available for the populace in order to better the nation as a whole and progress towards a better future. The government isn't robbing you, it's making sure it can provide for the things everyone needs.

[No Serfdom]

"If we didn't ignore property rights, property rights wouldn't exist"

"Nobody's going to take my stuff if they aren't stopped from doing so!"

"If you don't let people take your stuff then people might take your stuff!"

[Vistulange]

The purpose of the state is not to make profit.

No. Its to provide for the people without stealing from the people.

That is called state capitalism. And no, the part about "without stealing" is something you, Kefka, pulled out of your arse. Even a freshman political science student could tell you that there is absolutely no definition of the state as you define it.

[Katyuscha]

No they're not

[Infected Mushroom]

the state doesn't have such a monopoly, non-state actors perpetuate violent acts involving force on a daily basis

the government would LIKE to think it has such a monopoly

It has a monopoly on LEGAL violence.

Okay

[Sun Wukong]

I say private property is theft.

What gives you the right to say, "this is mine, and no one else's?"

[No Serfdom]

No. Its to provide for the people without stealing from the people.

That is called state capitalism. And no, the part about "without stealing" is something you, Kefka, pulled out of your arse. Even a freshman political science student could tell you that there is absolutely no definition of the state as you define it.

How did he define it?

[Infected Mushroom]

No. Its to provide for the people without stealing from the people.

That is called state capitalism. And no, the part about "without stealing" is something you, Kefka, pulled out of your arse. Even a freshman political science student could tell you that there is absolutely no definition of the state as you define it.

I'm not providing a definition of the state, I am providing guidance for how the state can behave ethically... but as we have seen, it is entirely possible for a state to instead choose to behave like a mafia

[Wallenburg]

Edgy OP is edgy.

We need taxes to keep the world from devolving into anarchy. I'll pay my taxes, and so will you. If either of us don't, we go to prison.

[Infected Mushroom]

I say private property is theft.

What gives you the right to say, "this is mine, and no one else's?"

either you bought it with your own money or you built it with your own hands or someone who owned it before gave it to you as a gift

[No Serfdom]

Edgy OP is edgy.

We need taxes to keep the world from devolving into anarchy. I'll pay my taxes, and so will you. If either of us don't, we go to prison.

Force is not an argument.

[New haven america]

I'm guessing you made this thread just for the sake of making it?

Well at least it is better than some pseudo-philosophical analysis of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

Oh, of course, almost anythings better than that.

[Chestaan]

Nope, cause without taxes private property really wouldn't be a thing.

not really

for a very very long time income taxes were non-existent or close to non-existent, and we had private property

Its entirely possible for a government that protects the people exclusively funded by money it rightfully earns through state-owned enterprises instead of having what we have now. A government that doesn't work, but waits for the people to work, and then swoops in and takes their money.

According to this US tax revenues for 2015 are estimated at 6 trillion dollars, while GDP is estimated at 17.419 trillion for 2014 https://www.google.ie/publicdata/explor ... l=en&dl=en

So let's round up and say that GDP for 2015 will be roughly 18 trillion. That means that the US government took 33.33% of the economy or one third of the economy in tax revenue. For your proposal to work you would need government enterprises to make up one third of the US economy. How is that even possible?

[New Werpland]

"Nobody's going to take my stuff if they aren't stopped from doing so!"

"If you don't let people take your stuff then people might take your stuff!"

Wow, that's insightful.

[Sun Wukong]

I say private property is theft.

What gives you the right to say, "this is mine, and no one else's?"

either you bought it with your own money or you built it with your own hands or someone who owned it before gave it to you as a gift

Money is made by the government. So you're saying that the State is what gives you the right?

[Neu California]

And the government needs to make money to protect you. Police, fire, and the military don't work for free. Taxes just happen to be the way they fund their protection of you and services for you.

then they can work for that money themselves (instead of taking other people's rightfully earned income)

I suggest they start their own businesses for that end; it would also help with unemployment

And how do you propose the government make the billions, or trillions of dollars to fund itself through business alone?

Also, yes, the government has the right to take a percentage of your rightfully earned income from you, according to the constitution of the United States (16th amendment, assuming you're an American). Welcome to living in a stable, functioning state with a powerhouse economy

[Infected Mushroom]

not really

for a very very long time income taxes were non-existent or close to non-existent, and we had private property

Its entirely possible for a government that protects the people exclusively funded by money it rightfully earns through state-owned enterprises instead of having what we have now. A government that doesn't work, but waits for the people to work, and then swoops in and takes their money.

According to this US tax revenues for 2015 are estimated at 6 trillion dollars, while GDP is estimated at 17.419 trillion for 2014 https://www.google.ie/publicdata/explor ... l=en&dl=en

So let's round up and say that GDP for 2015 will be roughly 18 trillion. That means that the US government took 33.33% of the economy or one third of the economy in tax revenue. For your proposal to work you would need government enterprises to make up one third of the US economy. How is that even possible?

if its not possible, than I suggest the government cut back its spending or improve its own self-image (so that generous people may be more inclined to donate)

[Wallenburg]

Edgy OP is edgy.

We need taxes to keep the world from devolving into anarchy. I'll pay my taxes, and so will you. If either of us don't, we go to prison.

Force is not an argument.

When did I say it was?
I'm willing to pay some money so I can live to the ripe old age of 30 without some anarchist loony bashing my head in because there's no government to stop him.

[No Serfdom]

not really

for a very very long time income taxes were non-existent or close to non-existent, and we had private property

Its entirely possible for a government that protects the people exclusively funded by money it rightfully earns through state-owned enterprises instead of having what we have now. A government that doesn't work, but waits for the people to work, and then swoops in and takes their money.

According to this US tax revenues for 2015 are estimated at 6 trillion dollars, while GDP is estimated at 17.419 trillion for 2014 https://www.google.ie/publicdata/explor ... l=en&dl=en

So let's round up and say that GDP for 2015 will be roughly 18 trillion. That means that the US government took 33.33% of the economy or one third of the economy in tax revenue. For your proposal to work you would need government enterprises to make up one third of the US economy. How is that even possible?

I don't see why private governance would necessarily consume as many resources as our current government.

Statist governments are known for being wasteful and less efficient than private businesses.

[Vistulange]

That is called state capitalism. And no, the part about "without stealing" is something you, Kefka, pulled out of your arse. Even a freshman political science student could tell you that there is absolutely no definition of the state as you define it.

I'm not providing a definition of the state, I am providing guidance for how the state can behave ethically... but as we have seen, it is entirely possible for a state to instead choose to behave like a mafia

Then don't tell people "no, the purpose of the state is to provide for its people without stealing". That's stating the purpose of the state. The State's purpose, in political philosophy, is a subject of debate; but the purpose you define isn't mentioned by anybody. It's bullshit.

The State collects taxes and invests these in various programs which are too big to be managed by individuals. What these programs are and how many there will be are a subject of another debate. The point is, the State is meant to be a different thing than corporations. You see, you say "without stealing", but another person could say that a state operating for profit is "extorting" its citizens.

You'd whine about the state asking too high a price on use of railways, if you had your way. Your oh-so-feared taxes would be swapped by high prices. State capitalism - there you have it.