Taxes are a form of Theft

[Jordkloden]

No, they are not. If you want the government to do anything at all for you, pay your taxes.

[Allanea]

Well, yes, taxation is theft.

You don't have to be an anarchist to accept that.

Still, about 99% of people on Earth consider taxation to be a necessary evil.

The position that taxation is theft doesn't really lead inevitably to the notion that "taxation should be abolished". It's arguable at least that taxation is often the lesser evil .

[Infected Mushroom]

Similar to how you pay the mafia in Grant Theft Auto for protection fees?

Yes, actually, it's just that the state has a monopoly on force(or in certain, not used all that often systems, a duopoly, but that's a topic for another thread) which the mafia doesn't have.

the state doesn't have such a monopoly, non-state actors perpetuate violent acts involving force on a daily basis

the government would LIKE to think it has such a monopoly

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

Well, yes, taxation is theft.

You don't have to be an anarchist to accept that.

Still, about 99% of people on Earth consider taxation to be a necessary evil.

The position that taxation is theft doesn't really lead inevitably to the notion that "taxation should be abolished". It's arguable at least that taxation is often the lesser evil .

Not to mention Taxation actually has to follow guidelines unlike the extortion policies of a mob boss which can change at a whim leaving you at their mercy.

[Vistulange]

Greetings NSG,

I have just realised that in my view, the fact that the government forces you give them money on a regular basis (in the form of income tax) from income you rightfully and assiduously earn... is nothing more or less than an act of state-sanctioned theft.

In my view it can be described in no other way. The fact that we consider taxation a normal thing and a legitimate thing is simply a form of Might Makes Right. If a person wrote letters to you to try to compel you to give them a part of your property every Nth period (and if you don't they will do bad things to you like imprison you), you would rightfully and instinctively call such a person a robber. Likewise, If a band of robbers wrote a letter to you and threatened the same, you would rightfully and instinctively call such an organization an organization of robbers.

I've just made the revolutionary connection that the government is in that business too. I mean think about it. If you don't pay your taxes for long enough, the tax collectors will send their enforcers to grab you and throw you into a cell (isn't this similar to how a mafia operates?). Except they trick you into thinking its alright by making it a part of the Law. They also trick you into thinking that you've somehow legitimised this Theft because every 4 or so years you get to cast a statistically insignificant ballot that's supposedly a form of consent.

I can't believe it...

What do you think NSG? Is taxation nothing more than a form of theft by the powerful? Are we ruled by a society of elite and powerful bandits; is this what Western liberal society comes down to?

If you don't want to pay your taxes, put aside thirty minutes of your life to consider what is given to you by the entity that is the State. Then, you should consider that the State is funded via taxes. So, if we didn't pay taxes, a lot of things would not function. States aren't some otherworldly beings that came to establish themselves atop humanity. Humans developed the State to manage themselves, as it was getting too out of hand.

You libertarians need to realize that.

[Infected Mushroom]

No, they are not. If you want the government to do anything at all for you, pay your taxes.

So Might Makes Right?

[Satanic Anarchists]

I think taxes are a form of theft. For those who say they provide stuff for paying taxes I have a situation for you. Let's say I rob you at gunpoint and take your money. The next day I give you a sandwich. Does that make it ok?

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

No, they are not. If you want the government to do anything at all for you, pay your taxes.

So Might Makes Right?

Would be the case if you were leading an armed force into a town, and ransacking it to pay the debt they owe.

[Jordkloden]

No, they are not. If you want the government to do anything at all for you, pay your taxes.

So Might Makes Right?

I suppose so.

[BK117B2]

It certainly can be.

The defining issue is whether or not it is consensual.

[Vistulange]

No, they are not. If you want the government to do anything at all for you, pay your taxes.

So Might Makes Right?

No, it's "you pay me taxes in return for me providing you with infrastructure, clean water, electricity, natural gas, etc".

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

I think taxes are a form of theft. For those who say they provide stuff for paying taxes I have a situation for you. Let's say I rob you at gunpoint and take your money. The next day I give you a sandwich. Does that make it ok?

Depends are you giving me just the sandwich or are you funding sandwiches to be given to entire schools?

[Infected Mushroom]

Greetings NSG,

I have just realised that in my view, the fact that the government forces you give them money on a regular basis (in the form of income tax) from income you rightfully and assiduously earn... is nothing more or less than an act of state-sanctioned theft.

In my view it can be described in no other way. The fact that we consider taxation a normal thing and a legitimate thing is simply a form of Might Makes Right. If a person wrote letters to you to try to compel you to give them a part of your property every Nth period (and if you don't they will do bad things to you like imprison you), you would rightfully and instinctively call such a person a robber. Likewise, If a band of robbers wrote a letter to you and threatened the same, you would rightfully and instinctively call such an organization an organization of robbers.

I've just made the revolutionary connection that the government is in that business too. I mean think about it. If you don't pay your taxes for long enough, the tax collectors will send their enforcers to grab you and throw you into a cell (isn't this similar to how a mafia operates?). Except they trick you into thinking its alright by making it a part of the Law. They also trick you into thinking that you've somehow legitimised this Theft because every 4 or so years you get to cast a statistically insignificant ballot that's supposedly a form of consent.

I can't believe it...

What do you think NSG? Is taxation nothing more than a form of theft by the powerful? Are we ruled by a society of elite and powerful bandits; is this what Western liberal society comes down to?

If you don't want to pay your taxes, put aside thirty minutes of your life to consider what is given to you by the entity that is the State. Then, you should consider that the State is funded via taxes. So, if we didn't pay taxes, a lot of things would not function. States aren't some otherworldly beings that came to establish themselves atop humanity. Humans developed the State to manage themselves, as it was getting too out of hand.

You libertarians need to realize that.

It can establish, sustain itself, and provide for others the same way we do it as individual units or as family units. By working for its own income.

Instead of taking money from the people (who work) at gunpoint... the state could run its own for-profit businesses and use that money. You know, the same as everyone else does. There would be no theft or coercion involved.

I'm not too comfortably being governed by a government that is essentially behaving like an organisation of bandits...

[New haven america]

I'm guessing you made this thread just for the sake of making it?

[Infected Mushroom]

So Might Makes Right?

No, it's "you pay me taxes in return for me providing you with infrastructure, clean water, electricity, natural gas, etc".

the government has a responsibility to protect me, regardless of taxes

they have the power over me and with great power comes great responsibility; they should unconditionally provide for the people, its why we gave them power in the first place; we didn't give it to them so that the would continue to steal and feed from us

[Diopolis]

Yes, actually, it's just that the state has a monopoly on force(or in certain, not used all that often systems, a duopoly, but that's a topic for another thread) which the mafia doesn't have.

the state doesn't have such a monopoly, non-state actors perpetuate violent acts involving force on a daily basis

the government would LIKE to think it has such a monopoly

That's not what monopoly on force means. Monopoly on force means that we've agreed that the state(or others viewed as having authority) are the only ones allowed to use force(or coercion) in a given society. Any other use of force is a crime and the government's job(or, at least, its main job) is to prevent and protect us from that. It's not 100% effective, because nothing is, but it works much better than nothing. This is social contract theory 101, and it's something you really should know before starting a thread on it.

[Geilinor]

Instead of taking money from the people (who work) at gunpoint... the state could run its own for-profit businesses and use that money. You know, the same as everyone else does. There would be no theft or coercion involved.

I'm not too comfortably being governed by a government that is essentially behaving like an organisation of bandits...

The purpose of the state is not to make profit.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

I'm guessing you made this thread just for the sake of making it?

Well at least it is better than some pseudo-philosophical analysis of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

[Infected Mushroom]

the state doesn't have such a monopoly, non-state actors perpetuate violent acts involving force on a daily basis

the government would LIKE to think it has such a monopoly

That's not what monopoly on force means. Monopoly on force means that we've agreed that the state(or others viewed as having authority) are the only ones allowed to use force(or coercion) in a given society. Any other use of force is a crime and the government's job(or, at least, its main job) is to prevent and protect us from that. It's not 100% effective, because nothing is, but it works much better than nothing. This is social contract theory 101, and it's something you really should know before starting a thread on it.

a monopoly means that someone is the sole provider/actor in that field, if there is even one other actor, then its not a monopoly (it becomes a duopoly at best)

[Infected Mushroom]

Instead of taking money from the people (who work) at gunpoint... the state could run its own for-profit businesses and use that money. You know, the same as everyone else does. There would be no theft or coercion involved.

I'm not too comfortably being governed by a government that is essentially behaving like an organisation of bandits...

The purpose of the state is not to make profit.

No. Its to provide for the people without stealing from the people.

[No Serfdom]

Welcome to the club, OP.

No, they're not. Taxes are rent.

Rent can only be collected from land one actually owns.

Let's just not take taxes and let criminals run rampant or let other nations take us over.

If taxation is theft then criminals already run rampant. They're the ones in charge.

Nope, cause without taxes private property really wouldn't be a thing.

"If we didn't ignore property rights, property rights wouldn't exist"

[Jochistan]

Taxes are vital for a nation to survive and for the common good to be upheld. I personally believe in much lower taxes and a small-as-efficiently-possible Government, but you still need taxes. It sucks, but you need 'em.

[Neu California]

No, it's "you pay me taxes in return for me providing you with infrastructure, clean water, electricity, natural gas, etc".

the government has a responsibility to protect me, regardless of taxes

they have the power over me and with great power comes great responsibility; they should unconditionally provide for the people, its why we gave them power in the first place; we didn't give it to them so that the would continue to steal and feed from us

And the government needs to make money to protect you. Police, fire, and the military don't work for free. Taxes just happen to be the way they fund their protection of you and services for you.

[NeuPolska]

No, it's "you pay me taxes in return for me providing you with infrastructure, clean water, electricity, natural gas, etc".

the government has a responsibility to protect me, regardless of taxes

they have the power over me and with great power comes great responsibility; they should unconditionally provide for the people, its why we gave them power in the first place; we didn't give it to them so that the would continue to steal and feed from us

And how do you think they'd be able to do that if they have no way of paying for it?

[Chestaan]

Yes, actually, it's just that the state has a monopoly on force(or in certain, not used all that often systems, a duopoly, but that's a topic for another thread) which the mafia doesn't have.

the state doesn't have such a monopoly, non-state actors perpetuate violent acts involving force on a daily basis

the government would LIKE to think it has such a monopoly

It has a monopoly on LEGAL violence.