UK Politics Thread II: Gladstone's Revenge

[Rhodesia]

Labour will not win in 2020. The young and radicals may well flock to the party but the older generation of voters (who vote in droves) will not. The dispossessed and disenfranchised won't vote just because an old party elected an old-style leader. It's not whether Labour wins in Scotland that decides elections, it's weather Labour wins in Middle England and, since the realignment of the socio-economic landscape in the Western World in the late-70s/early-80s, every time - every time - Middle England has been offered the choice of centrist Conservative or far-left Labour, the Conservatives have won. (Say what you like, but Thatcher whilst in office was by the political dictionary definition a centrist.)

have you tried "get rid of england"

When you factor that in, then Corbyn's chances go from "slim" to "may do well in Wales". Unless the SNP does something disasterously blundersome, it isn't losing power in Scotland anytime in the next decade or more. Corbyn's hopes run dry there, I'm afraid. Wales is big on Labour. Labour have only lost 1 election there since 1918 and it doesn't count because it was a European Parliament election (the Tories out-polled Labour by 0.9%, in case you were wondering, which... you probably weren't).

[Atlanticatia]

http://www.ippr.org/publications/the-ch ... rs-choices

I read an interesting report from the IPPR that showed how Osborne could fulfill his overall surplus target without breaking his promises not to raise VAT, NI, or income tax, without harsh cuts, and while investing in additional childcare, infrastructure, job guarantees, etc.

Basically Osborne doesn't have to pursue harsh austerity cuts if he didn't want to - he could still invest in new spending without 40 percent cuts nor raising basic taxes. But he is, for whatever reason.

[Alyakia]

i feel like it's redundant to say, yeah, he totally wants to

[Great Nepal]

1 minor point about that article, it doesn't take into context that drivers are so hard to replace not because of a outside market force like lack of candidates, but because the Unions have effectively banned anyone from outside from applying to be a tube driver.

Not that there's anything catastrophically wrong about that - it prevents some kind of mass outsourcing and drastic cuts, and as the article points out, you start at the bottom rung in TFL as platform staff. So you have to work up to tube driver.

It is entirely unreasonable, akin to suggesting management of a company should only be internally hired and anyone wanting to be CEO should start at bottom rung as janitor to prevent mass outsourcing and pay reductions. I'm not entirely sure why tfl would ever agree to such conditions but it is coming from a department allowing an obsolete group of employees to hold an entire city hostage.

http://www.ippr.org/publications/the-chancellors-choices

I read an interesting report from the IPPR that showed how Osborne could fulfill his overall surplus target without breaking his promises not to raise VAT, NI, or income tax, without harsh cuts, and while investing in additional childcare, infrastructure, job guarantees, etc.

Basically Osborne doesn't have to pursue harsh austerity cuts if he didn't want to - he could still invest in new spending without 40 percent cuts nor raising basic taxes. But he is, for whatever reason.

I dont know if it was deliberate or not but "fatal error" on website called chancellors choices is hilarious.

[Imperializt Russia]

Not that there's anything catastrophically wrong about that - it prevents some kind of mass outsourcing and drastic cuts, and as the article points out, you start at the bottom rung in TFL as platform staff. So you have to work up to tube driver.

It is entirely unreasonable, akin to suggesting management of a company should only be internally hired and anyone wanting to be CEO should start at bottom rung as janitor to prevent mass outsourcing and pay reductions. I'm not entirely sure why tfl would ever agree to such conditions but it is coming from a department allowing an obsolete group of employees to hold an entire city hostage.

Not really, since tube drivers aren't management.
More like saying that a nuclear systems engineer might need to have started out as a service maintenance assistant in the firm first, there's no direct entry.

[Great Nepal]

It is entirely unreasonable, akin to suggesting management of a company should only be internally hired and anyone wanting to be CEO should start at bottom rung as janitor to prevent mass outsourcing and pay reductions. I'm not entirely sure why tfl would ever agree to such conditions but it is coming from a department allowing an obsolete group of employees to hold an entire city hostage.

Not really, since tube drivers aren't management.
More like saying that a nuclear systems engineer might need to have started out as a service maintenance assistant in the firm first, there's no direct entry.

Which is quite silly as it prevents the company from poaching experts from other firms but its worse because tube drivers don't require some special skills developed by working in ticket office - in fact judging by BBC's description of a drive, most adults with few weeks of training could manage themselves (push down the handle, don't break the speed limit and don't close the doors if something is trapped) unlike with a nuclear power plant where a systems engineer presumably would need to be intimately familiar with the set up, safety procedures and the specific reactors used requiring at least some level of experience working in similar set up.

[Vassenor]

Not really, since tube drivers aren't management.
More like saying that a nuclear systems engineer might need to have started out as a service maintenance assistant in the firm first, there's no direct entry.

Which is quite silly as it prevents the company from poaching experts from other firms but its worse because tube drivers don't require some special skills developed by working in ticket office - in fact judging by BBC's description of a drive, most adults with few weeks of training could manage themselves (push down the handle, don't break the speed limit and don't close the doors if something is trapped) unlike with a nuclear power plant where a systems engineer presumably would need to be intimately familiar with the set up, safety procedures and the specific reactors used requiring at least some level of experience working in similar set up.

Most actual tube drivers acknowledge that the actual drive is something most people can do. It's knowing what to do when things go wrong that's the key.

[Great Nepal]

Which is quite silly as it prevents the company from poaching experts from other firms but its worse because tube drivers don't require some special skills developed by working in ticket office - in fact judging by BBC's description of a drive, most adults with few weeks of training could manage themselves (push down the handle, don't break the speed limit and don't close the doors if something is trapped) unlike with a nuclear power plant where a systems engineer presumably would need to be intimately familiar with the set up, safety procedures and the specific reactors used requiring at least some level of experience working in similar set up.

Most actual tube drivers acknowledge that the actual drive is something most people can do. It's knowing what to do when things go wrong that's the key.

Even if that was immensely complex (which I doubt given several networks around the world work quite well automated), its something which requires specific training rather than being something you'll pick up from working for long duration in the ticket office.

[Imperializt Russia]

Not really, since tube drivers aren't management.
More like saying that a nuclear systems engineer might need to have started out as a service maintenance assistant in the firm first, there's no direct entry.

Which is quite silly as it prevents the company from poaching experts from other firms but its worse because tube drivers don't require some special skills developed by working in ticket office - in fact judging by BBC's description of a drive, most adults with few weeks of training could manage themselves (push down the handle, don't break the speed limit and don't close the doors if something is trapped) unlike with a nuclear power plant where a systems engineer presumably would need to be intimately familiar with the set up, safety procedures and the specific reactors used requiring at least some level of experience working in similar set up.

I said systems engineer, not reactor operator, for what it's worth.

[Val Halla]

Today's winner of "WTF newspapers" is the Sun. I mean, holy shit, how is it profitable?

[Imperializt Russia]

Boobs.

[The Matthew Islands]

Also, it's utter Nonsense politics strikes a chord with a large section of the country.

[Taruda]

yeah, i'm not gonna say i'm expert on french history or france and NATO but france is gonna france.

http://i.imgur.com/HblNrr8.jpg

the conservatives silly rhetoric has allowed russia to deliver unto us a sick burn and i am not pleased

I'm really not sure how much of a sick burn that is, given how Russia actually treats its current opposition coalition.

The opposition on Russia can do and critise the government. Under opposition I mean the elected parties.

[Hydesland]

I also don't understand why people are up in arms about a tube driver earning a decent salary - but likely don't care that CEOs earn millions and millions and bankers get huge bonuses every year - or the £100bn in tax reliefs each year. Attack someone who is rich, not working or middle class.

I don't think anyone is up in arms about their salary, just the fact that people on exceptionally comfortably middle class salary levels are striking. I'm sure a bunch of bankers going on strike, holding a payments system hostage, would cause outrage. Now imagine if those bankers were working for nationalised RBS, striking in response to a slashing of bonuses. Like tube drivers, the bankers might say that it's not about pay but about unsociable working hours, remember bankers literally work 100+ hours a week often, and get very little holiday. Nevertheless, everyone would still be outraged.

[Napkiraly]

Boobs.

And Clarkson. And Clarkson's boobs.

[Imperializt Russia]

Boobs.

And Clarkson. And Clarkson's boobs.

Not his press stud?

[Napkiraly]

And Clarkson. And Clarkson's boobs.

Not his press stud?

Nem, definitely his bewbs.

[Atlanticatia]

I also don't understand why people are up in arms about a tube driver earning a decent salary - but likely don't care that CEOs earn millions and millions and bankers get huge bonuses every year - or the £100bn in tax reliefs each year. Attack someone who is rich, not working or middle class.

I don't think anyone is up in arms about their salary, just the fact that people on exceptionally comfortably middle class salary levels are striking. I'm sure a bunch of bankers going on strike, holding a payments system hostage, would cause outrage. Now imagine if those bankers were working for nationalised RBS, striking in response to a slashing of bonuses. Like tube drivers, the bankers might say that it's not about pay but about unsociable working hours, remember bankers literally work 100+ hours a week often, and get very little holiday. Nevertheless, everyone would still be outraged.

"In any case, most of the staff on strike are not tube drivers – who are among the more senior London Underground employees – but station staff who are paid considerably less."

[SD_Film Artists]

Doctor, I'm starting to smile and nod agreeably at Tory propaganda, is there something wrong with me?


But seriously, I'm curious how Corbyn is planning to debunk the claims of being weak or even counter-productive on Britain's defence and foreign policy. And by debunk I don't just mean saying "well... I didn't mean exactly that, the Tories are taking things too literally", I mean totally and pubically refuting them.

[The Ridings of Yorkshire]

Jeremy Corybn is a terrorist, as in he terrifies David Cameron, George Osborne and their 1% hyper-rich company friends.
I agree he is a national security threat to the DisUnited Queen Kingdom of Great Britain Greater London and most (like 75% of Northern Ireland) Berkshire.

[Olivaero]

Doctor, I'm starting to smile and nod agreeably at Tory propaganda, is there something wrong with me?


But seriously, I'm curious how Corbyn is planning to debunk the claims of being weak or even counter-productive on Britain's defence and foreign policy. And by debunk I don't just mean saying "well... I didn't mean exactly that, the Tories are taking things too literally", I mean totally and pubically refuting them.

I imagine he simply wont. He'll emphasise policy that is popular which is his economics and probably let shadow cabinet members speak about foreign policy. That's what I'd do.

[Shamhnan Insir]

Today's winner of "WTF newspapers" is the Sun. I mean, holy shit, how is it profitable?

1 - The brickies of the UK
2 - Rupert Murdoch

So if we could topple the Murdoch empire then we might be getting somewhere.

[SD_Film Artists]

Doctor, I'm starting to smile and nod agreeably at Tory propaganda, is there something wrong with me?


But seriously, I'm curious how Corbyn is planning to debunk the claims of being weak or even counter-productive on Britain's defence and foreign policy. And by debunk I don't just mean saying "well... I didn't mean exactly that, the Tories are taking things too literally", I mean totally and pubically refuting them.

I imagine he simply wont. He'll emphasise policy that is popular which is his economics and probably let shadow cabinet members speak about foreign policy. That's what I'd do.

I think that's the most likely situation too. Keeping up the charming 'comrade grandad' look while his ministers do the dirty work.

[Great Nepal]

Doctor, I'm starting to smile and nod agreeably at Tory propaganda, is there something wrong with me?


But seriously, I'm curious how Corbyn is planning to debunk the claims of being weak or even counter-productive on Britain's defence and foreign policy. And by debunk I don't just mean saying "well... I didn't mean exactly that, the Tories are taking things too literally", I mean totally and pubically refuting them.

I imagine he simply wont. He'll emphasise policy that is popular which is his economics and probably let shadow cabinet members speak about foreign policy. That's what I'd do.

That should work if he only wants to shift the conversation to the left rather than actually standing for PM because if he goes into 2020 elections with those views, he'll get eaten alive by whoever is conservative and liberal candidates.

[Olivaero]

I imagine he simply wont. He'll emphasise policy that is popular which is his economics and probably let shadow cabinet members speak about foreign policy. That's what I'd do.

I think that's the most likely situation too. Keeping up the charming 'comrade grandad' look while his ministers do the dirty work.

Well one thing he is pretty dedicated to is party democracy so he's never really gonna be about forcing unpopular foriegn policy stances on the party. I rthink he's said something about putting it up to the party members what policies we should be pursuing to so maybe some kind of internal referendum on things like nuclear disarmament could be on agenda in which case if the policy gets turned down (more than likely) he'll answer all questions about it with "I'm respecting the wishes of my party and not pursuing personal views which I have no mandate for" or something to that effect.

I imagine he simply wont. He'll emphasise policy that is popular which is his economics and probably let shadow cabinet members speak about foreign policy. That's what I'd do.

That should work if he only wants to shift the conversation to the left rather than actually standing for PM because if he goes into 2020 elections with those views, he'll get eaten alive by whoever is conservative and liberal candidates.

Well I doubt he'll ever do a u-turn, he probably will come up with a reason why he'll not pursue them whether it is party democracy or party unity. But doing a complete reversal may well put him into the category of "Just another politician" in a lot of peoples minds which he needs to stay out of much like good ol' Nige does.