UK Politics Thread II: Gladstone's Revenge

[Fartsniffage]

Most of them probably do. The pay hike is because Saturday is "unsociable hours". I would assume this is why the current rate has a range between 1.2x pay and 2x pay on a Saturday and Sunday.

This is one of the fundamental areas of the dispute - most, almost all doctors, work Saturdays. At least one per month. Some Sundays as well.
But working on a Saturday is working an unsociable day.

It is unsociable hours, but a lot of people work on a Saturday. And getting 2x pay just because it's Saturday is an excessive extention of an already large pay check. It's also the problem of ensuring A&E remain open 24/7.
It would be intresting to compare doctors with other essential 24 hour services like police and fire fighters. One disadvantage for police is they can't go on strike.

I'm not against the doctors, but I can't approve of disrupting essential services.

You kinda need to remember that junior doctors don't get a large pay cheque for their level of education. With the old system they made out okay.

[Eastfield Lodge]

(Image)

Useful chart helpful to understand the details over the pay disputes.

source: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/23e47c2c-09fe ... z46yb5ZgyG

I think the BMA proposal is quite reasonable, although I don't think they should get such a pay hike just for working on a Saturday unless it's part of a six day week.

Also I think there should be some sort of requirement to work In the NHS until they repay the cost of their medical training.

How long do you think it will take to pay off the quarter of a million spent on each doctor?
If you meant purely in terms of tuition fee loans/etc, 70,000 at 9% of pay a year (baring in mind a JD's starting salary averages around £22k), that's still a long, long time.

[Imperializt Russia]

Most of them probably do. The pay hike is because Saturday is "unsociable hours". I would assume this is why the current rate has a range between 1.2x pay and 2x pay on a Saturday and Sunday.

This is one of the fundamental areas of the dispute - most, almost all doctors, work Saturdays. At least one per month. Some Sundays as well.
But working on a Saturday is working an unsociable day.

It is unsociable hours, but a lot of people work on a Saturday. And getting 2x pay just because it's Saturday is an excessive extention of an already large pay check. It's also the problem of ensuring A&E remain open 24/7.
It would be intresting to compare doctors with other essential 24 hour services like police and fire fighters. One disadvantage for police is they can't go on strike.

I'm not against the doctors, but I can't approve of disrupting essential services.

Not everyone gets the double time rate on Saturdays. That's why the present system has a range of rates for weekends between 1.2x rate and 2x rate.

The BMA wants a flat 1.6x rate for weekends, the imposed contract considers parts of the weekend "normal hours" and pays them at the standard rate.
Do you know anyone that works weekends and doesn't get extra pay? The only reason that I don't is because I apparently don't earn that right until I have worked for 12 weeks at my agency.

[The Nihilistic view]

I think the BMA proposal is quite reasonable, although I don't think they should get such a pay hike just for working on a Saturday unless it's part of a six day week.

Also I think there should be some sort of requirement to work In the NHS until they repay the cost of their medical training.

How long do you think it will take to pay off the quarter of a million spent on each doctor?
If you meant purely in terms of tuition fee loans/etc, 70,000 at 9% of pay a year (baring in mind a JD's starting salary averages around £22k), that's still a long, long time.

Depends on the doctor. Many have had them paid by their parents upfront as they go along. They tend to be from more well off backgrounds generally than those on most other subjects.

But going on to marrying this with perhaps a period where they have to work for the NHS tuition fees could be removed in return for a 5 or 10 year period where they must work fully in the NHS. Might hit three birds with one stone, fees, wages and lack of doctors.

[Eastfield Lodge]

How long do you think it will take to pay off the quarter of a million spent on each doctor?
If you meant purely in terms of tuition fee loans/etc, 70,000 at 9% of pay a year (baring in mind a JD's starting salary averages around £22k), that's still a long, long time.

Depends on the doctor. Many have had them paid by their parents upfront as they go along. They tend to be from more well off backgrounds generally than those on most other subjects.

But going on to marrying this with perhaps a period where they have to work for the NHS tuition fees could be removed in return for a 5 or 10 year period where they must work fully in the NHS. Might hit three birds with one stone, fees, wages and lack of doctors.

That's very true.

Although the lack of doctors needs a multi-pronged attack - some areas of the country are over-subscribed, and others are just left barren; Wales has a real problem retaining JDs, and generally there's a massive lack of GPs, especially in East Yorkshire.

Also, addressing things from a public health/primary prevention point of view will greatly reduce the burden on the NHS.

As for that plan, that is what should happen, but the cost to the NHS/taxpayer/etc would be astronomical (they already pay-off tuition fees beyond fourth year). 5,000 people a year (students from England) @ 9,000 a year for 5 years takes that up to nearly a quarter of a billion per cohort. Even more if you add in maintenance loans.

[The Nihilistic view]

Depends on the doctor. Many have had them paid by their parents upfront as they go along. They tend to be from more well off backgrounds generally than those on most other subjects.

But going on to marrying this with perhaps a period where they have to work for the NHS tuition fees could be removed in return for a 5 or 10 year period where they must work fully in the NHS. Might hit three birds with one stone, fees, wages and lack of doctors.

That's very true.

Although the lack of doctors needs a multi-pronged attack - some areas of the country are over-subscribed, and others are just left barren; Wales has a real problem retaining JDs, and generally there's a massive lack of GPs, especially in East Yorkshire.

Also, addressing things from a public health/primary prevention point of view will greatly reduce the burden on the NHS.

As for that plan, that is what should happen, but the cost to the NHS/taxpayer/etc would be astronomical (they already pay-off tuition fees beyond fourth year). 5,000 people a year (students from England) @ 9,000 a year for 5 years takes that up to nearly a quarter of a billion per cohort. Even more if you add in maintenance loans.

Yes, but you have to balance that against the cost of training them currently V those that leave as soon as they are trained. I am fairly sure they cost the NHS multiple hundreds of thousands to train each doctor. The fees actually cover a very minor amount of the true cost, mainly just part of the cost to the university medical school. So it could be a case of paying £40k more per doctor but if you keep them guaranteed for five to ten years you actually make a long term saving. Once they are settled into a job somewhere maybe putting down roots they will also probably be less likely to seek to go elsewhere than if they were newly qualified. So you get better retention past the fixed term they must work for the NHS.

[Imperializt Russia]

That's very true.

Although the lack of doctors needs a multi-pronged attack - some areas of the country are over-subscribed, and others are just left barren; Wales has a real problem retaining JDs, and generally there's a massive lack of GPs, especially in East Yorkshire.

Also, addressing things from a public health/primary prevention point of view will greatly reduce the burden on the NHS.

As for that plan, that is what should happen, but the cost to the NHS/taxpayer/etc would be astronomical (they already pay-off tuition fees beyond fourth year). 5,000 people a year (students from England) @ 9,000 a year for 5 years takes that up to nearly a quarter of a billion per cohort. Even more if you add in maintenance loans.

Yes, but you have to balance that against the cost of training them currently V those that leave as soon as they are trained. I am fairly sure they cost the NHS multiple hundreds of thousands to train each doctor. The fees actually cover a very minor amount of the true cost, mainly just part of the cost to the university medical school. So it could be a case of paying £40k more per doctor but if you keep them guaranteed for five to ten years you actually make a long term saving. Once they are settled into a job somewhere maybe putting down roots they will also probably be less likely to seek to go elsewhere than if they were newly qualified. So you get better retention past the fixed term they must work for the NHS.

Maybe if junior doctors didn't feel so undervalued, they wouldn't emigrate as soon as they were trained.
Ditto for teachers.

[Eastfield Lodge]

That's very true.

Although the lack of doctors needs a multi-pronged attack - some areas of the country are over-subscribed, and others are just left barren; Wales has a real problem retaining JDs, and generally there's a massive lack of GPs, especially in East Yorkshire.

Also, addressing things from a public health/primary prevention point of view will greatly reduce the burden on the NHS.

As for that plan, that is what should happen, but the cost to the NHS/taxpayer/etc would be astronomical (they already pay-off tuition fees beyond fourth year). 5,000 people a year (students from England) @ 9,000 a year for 5 years takes that up to nearly a quarter of a billion per cohort. Even more if you add in maintenance loans.

Yes, but you have to balance that against the cost of training them currently V those that leave as soon as they are trained. I am fairly sure they cost the NHS multiple hundreds of thousands to train each doctor. The fees actually cover a very minor amount of the true cost, mainly just part of the cost to the university medical school. So it could be a case of paying £40k more per doctor but if you keep them guaranteed for five to ten years you actually make a long term saving. Once they are settled into a job somewhere maybe putting down roots they will also probably be less likely to seek to go elsewhere than if they were newly qualified. So you get better retention past the fixed term they must work for the NHS.

Agreed.

[The Nihilistic view]

Yes, but you have to balance that against the cost of training them currently V those that leave as soon as they are trained. I am fairly sure they cost the NHS multiple hundreds of thousands to train each doctor. The fees actually cover a very minor amount of the true cost, mainly just part of the cost to the university medical school. So it could be a case of paying £40k more per doctor but if you keep them guaranteed for five to ten years you actually make a long term saving. Once they are settled into a job somewhere maybe putting down roots they will also probably be less likely to seek to go elsewhere than if they were newly qualified. So you get better retention past the fixed term they must work for the NHS.

Maybe if junior doctors didn't feel so undervalued, they wouldn't emigrate as soon as they were trained.
Ditto for teachers.

One of the most well paid professions, with the vast majority of the cost of their full training paid for (We give some of the most taxpayer support in the world), if you need to be pat on the back every five seconds about how wonderful you are maybe public service is not for you?

But regardless, they were very well supported to begin with by the public. That to me indicates they are or at least were valued, their actions are steadily eroding that support.

[Imperializt Russia]

Maybe if junior doctors didn't feel so undervalued, they wouldn't emigrate as soon as they were trained.
Ditto for teachers.

One of the most well paid professions, with the vast majority of the cost of their full training paid for (We give some of the most taxpayer support in the world), if you need to be pat on the back every five seconds about how wonderful you are maybe public service is not for you?

Okay well that needlessly demeans all the arguments for no reason except I assume to avoid discussing them.

But regardless, they were very well supported to begin with by the public. That to me indicates they are or at least were valued, their actions are steadily eroding that support.

Okay well this sounds needlessly ignorant of all the arguments.

Why do you even think I'm talking about being valued by the public?
The public aren't the employer or contract-writer of medical professionals whether in the NHS or not.

[The Nihilistic view]

Sweet! A kit I actually like for once. I usually think they look naff.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/36150239

[Hydesland]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

[Pachenstein]

Sweet! A kit I actually like for once. I usually think they look naff.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/36150239

The picture deceives, Jessica Ennis would look good wearing a tesco bag.

[The Nihilistic view]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

Probably yes in both cases. For the MP seems a bit of an over reaction now leaving them with little option but to kick her out of the party completely if they want to be taken seriously. Surely this was not necessary at this stage? Crompton don't know much about him but one presumes he was not in charge at the time or in a position of authority he would have to be about 90, smells a lot like a case of sins of the father being applied.

[SD_Film Artists]

[snip]

[The Nihilistic view]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/36153485

[The Matthew Islands]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

Probably a little bit. Nobody is ever really given much of a chance to properly defend themselves any more before even an internal inquiry before the mob is demanding blood for the blood god.

[Dooom35796821595]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

Probably a little bit. Nobody is ever really given much of a chance to properly defend themselves any more before even an internal inquiry before the mob is demanding blood for the blood god.

The public are sick of politicians, whenever one trips the public pounce like a pack of wolves.
Do they deserve it? Probably not. Do we care? Absolutely not. Down with the political elite!

[Imperializt Russia]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

Naz is just Cameron pressing where he knows it hurts, I have no idea wtf is going on with the SYP Chief Constable. I'd assumed he actually had some sort of role in the Hillsborough disaster.
Is he literally just the top guy now and that's what this is?

It is worth pointing out though, he's not being suspended over Hillsborough, it's related to the suggestion that the force continued to cover up the incident right through this inquest.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

Naz is just Cameron pressing where he knows it hurts, I have no idea wtf is going on with the SYP Chief Constable. I'd assumed he actually had some sort of role in the Hillsborough disaster.
Is he literally just the top guy now and that's what this is?

It is worth pointing out though, he's not being suspended over Hillsborough, it's related to the suggestion that the force continued to cover up the incident right through this inquest.

Basically, around 3 years ago, the Government published its own inquiry which absolved the fans of blame, and Crompton came out and apologised for SYP's role. The inquest then started, and SYP (or it's lawyers, at any rate) seemingly backtracked on that apology (to a certain degree), to try and reduce the blame attached to the police. Crompton had then come out and apologised again, in almost the same way, right after the inquest finished, which was just sticks in the craw of some of the families.

[Philjia]

Two high profile suspensions on unrelated/unconnected events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36154201

Related: our we too overzealous in our culture when calling for resignations?

No, and for such a reckless statement I think you'll have to resign.

[West Aurelia]

Ed Balls.

[Vassenor]

Ed Balls.

"It's been four years... four years since our now departed Ed Balls tweeted "Ed Balls". Four years... And it's still a punchline! You're still laughing at it!"

[Ravenflight]

Ed Balls.

"It's been four years... four years since our now departed Ed Balls tweeted "Ed Balls". Four years... And it's still a punchline! You're still laughing at it!"

It's as timeless as pictures of Boris

[Shamhnan Insir]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36160135
The Labour party could really do with some damage limitation.
IMO although this obviously didn't start with Corbyn, it has reared its ugly head since he took over and again it shows his poor leadership.