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Whitesplaining

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Nationes Pii Redivivi
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Postby Nationes Pii Redivivi » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:08 pm

Tafhan wrote:
Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:
The argument seems to be that you can't fully understand the experience of another race if you have never had that experience, and, therefore, have no basis on which to present to that race their own experience, rather, it makes that race silent by making having a member of the oppressing race speak for them, to them, tell them how they really are, etc.

Still, saying "well, you're white, you can't understand it." is kind of diverting the subject.

instead of actually responding to criticism. I don't know what the white person said, exactly, but it all seems like a cheap shot.


If you were making windows all your life, and I, completely inexperienced in it, came and told you you were doing it wrong, do you think I really have any grounds to speak?

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:10 pm

Fjormark wrote:This is just getting more disgusting by the day. Once again liberals show their immense stupidity by inventing ways to demonise whites because it's acceptable now.

#notallliberals

Don't overgeneralise.

Fjormark wrote:These liberals are obsessed with race, they're the real racists and they don't even know it.

Eh... Caring a lot about racism and its various intricacies does not fit the definition of "racist". Sorry. To be racist, there would have to be prejudice involved.
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Tafhan
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Postby Tafhan » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:10 pm

Fjormark wrote:This is just getting more disgusting by the day. Once again liberals show their immense stupidity by inventing ways to demonise whites because it's acceptable now.

These liberals are obsessed with race, they're the real racists and they don't even know it.

Yes. some liberals. but some Conservatives are extremely racist too, like stormfront and the like.

Many conservatives are obsessed with race in the sense of "multiculturalism" and "race mixing" and shit. It's by no means restricted to Liberals whining about white people.
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Haktiva
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Postby Haktiva » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:18 pm

:rofl:

oh I needed a good laugh. hey, maybe I can get a degree in this, I should have a natural ability to do it then.
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:20 pm

The Heart of Hypatia wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:1. And when it's about power relationships with the person in power lecturing the person without power regarding the issues that they're experiencing, it tends to be frowned upon and given a derogatory term to be used in reference.

If a person is ignorant about your experiences then frown upon it all you like, I just don't see how it's helpful to attribute that ignorance to their race and then essentially use that as a justification to deny them a place in the discussion. I don't know about you, but to me that sounds a bit racist and will not teach the person anything.

I do keep hearing some nonsense about how it's impossible to be racist toward a member of a group that holds more power than you, but I'm hoping that won't be your response here.

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:2. I wasn't a fan of the approach, but the fact is that the media was beginning to turn their attentions away from police abuse and towards the presidential race, so they took the opportunity to remind people that this was still an issue.

I'm not even American and I can't stop hearing about American police killing people, believe me there is no attention being taken away from that issue. There is time for both important issues.


1, Oh, God, no. That's one of the biggest overreaches that I've seen on the part of anti-racist activists. Trust me, while there are people whom I love and admire who buy into the "Black people can't be racist against white people" thing, and have tried to redefine it as being about power relationships, I find that ludicrous. Now, is systemic racism against black people a thing, whereas anti-white racism tends to be more individual in nature? Undoubtedly. However, racism has a very clear traditional definition, and it does not necessarily include power relationships.

2. And the reason that you're still hearing about it is partially because police keep killing people, but also because folks like these keep the issue front and center.

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:22 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Well, they don't have to do anything, which I believe was part of their point.

All they had to do was get their own rally.


Which wouldn't have been assured of the same press coverage. Again, not defending, just pointing out that it was effective.

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Talvezout
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Postby Talvezout » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:23 pm

Fjormark wrote:This is just getting more disgusting by the day. Once again liberals show their immense stupidity by inventing ways to demonise whites because it's acceptable now.

These liberals are obsessed with race, they're the real racists and they don't even know it.


*insert typical "them ebil librals" comment here*
Last edited by Talvezout on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:23 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
And they would probably know even less about how it works in the U.S.


If they're American originally? Or if they've been in the US for a long time?

Telling someone else, "That doesn't happen to you people," is not kosher, but talking about how to handle a particular form of discrimination when it is something you've had to deal with yourself is entirely reasonable, even if you aren't the same race and it didn't happen to you in the same place. Same as it's wrong for white people to tell black people what does or doesn't happen to them in the US, it's wrong to tell a white person they have no relevant experience just on the basis of their race without asking about their background. In both cases you're telling someone that you know more about their own life than they do.


I think that that's not what we're talking about, here.

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:23 pm

Hyfling wrote:
Kubra wrote:Which potential supports? You?
Cuz idk about you but it seems like what BLM did was successful in getting Bernie to talk about race and address the issues of the black demographic. That's victory, man.

1 step forward, 2 steps back.


We come together 'cause opposites attract, and you know

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:27 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:Whitesplaining is a new, hip term used to refer to cases of people of racial privilege explaining things which they don't seem to experience nor totally understand, usually in a condescending and confident manner. The more observant among us will note the strong similarity between this word and mansplaining.

An issue of "whitesplaining" was raised at the VMAs (The VMAs are a convention for famous people where public feuds can be explored and the limits of social taboos can be pushed. Fun fact: The VMAs originally started out as an award for music videos) where Entertainer A (black) called a Entertainer B (white) a bitch because of B's comments regarding A's political activism earlier on. This sort of got me thinking about it. Essentially, A takes quite an aggressive approach to her political activisim which didn't seem to gel well with B, who told her how she should properly fight oppression. A then told her to get fucked.

As somebody who is not white, I'm glad to see that the wider society (the white part at least) might start to understand that everything is not always their fight and that racial minority groups are not stupid nor do we need your advice. I appreciate that a white person giving the advice about the best way to deal with racial prejudice might be done out of kindness, but the fact is that it's often seen as condescending and otherwise wholly unnecessary. At the very least, we've been dealing with this stuff long enough to know how to cope with ongoing discrimination in the best manner for us, we know what works and what doesn't and we know there's really only so much a person can take before polite responses and calm are no longer a reasonable option.

Even if you can't do anything else, please understand that it is extremely insulting to speak with confidence or authority on a matter which you have comparatively no experience in. A white person does not understand what it's like to live as a black person in a country where being black is a disadvantage. You just don't. So maybe try not being so overconfident. Not try to tell us how it is. Instead of telling us how we should be polite, how we should try to be the bigger person and how we should try to let it go, maybe you could try to shut the fuck up? Or even, here's a fucking idea, try telling the people who are the REAL PROBLEM what they're doing wrong?

What's your view on whitesplaining? You experienced it? Do you do it? Are you enraged by another tumblr word on this forum? Tell us your beef.


I assume this is the Minaj/Cyrus feud. I read the Cyrus statement that Minaj was referring to and, well, yes, I agree with the fact that we whites do not know the struggles of minorities when we're from countries where whites are the dominant race/group. We can state an opinion on their issues but we have no firsthand knowledge about many of them.

However, I do agree with one point Cyrus made. Minaj made it about herself, seemingly, and not about the issue she was addressing.

Source
“And it’s not anger like, ‘Guys, I’m frustrated about some things that are a bigger issue.’ You made it about you. Not to sound like a bitch, but that’s like, ‘Eh, I didn’t get my VMA’…If you want to make it about race, there’s a way you could do that. But don’t make it just about yourself. Say: ‘This is the reason why I think it’s important to be nominated. There’s girls everywhere with this body type,'” she also said.


I don't keep up with celebrity stuff so I may have missed something. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Nanatsu no Tsuki on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:35 pm

Yedmnrutika Gavr wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
The only reason that these rights were in doubt in the first place is because of white people. The rights, according to our system of law, are not given by man, but are inherent. Black people never should have had to argue for equal treatment under the law in the first place, and obviously have every right and reason to speak up when equal treatment is shown to be more of an ideal than a reality nowadays.


actually they would still be fighting for them as they were slaves before they came here. fun fact: slavery still exists in africa and the middle east actually.. xd guess that doesnt matter tho =/ black people here have way more opportunities to do anything. the actual root of the problem is tyranny. can be white, black, average joe or even president bo. its all the same and if i recognize correctly the op is just as good for an example. peace and love to all. even the haters :)


1. No, it doesn't matter, because a) Not all of them were slaves before they came here, b) Of those who were slaves, most were not slaves from birth, but were captured to be sold into slavery, and c) Even among those who were slaves from birth, it does not in any way excuse our participation in a system that not only enslaved them, but also their descendants, and the descendants of their descendants. There's also the fact that it doesn't matter because we're not talking about African slavery here (past or present), but rather about racial relations in the United States today, and how best to conduct a conversation on the matter.

2. The point is not whether or not black people have more opportunities here than elsewhere (and that's open to dispute), but rather whether or not they have the same opportunities as white people in the United States, and how best to go about discussing the subject.

3. Lost you here.

4. Not a point, but a reflection: your sign-off there uses idioms that originated in the black community.

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Hyfling
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Postby Hyfling » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:35 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Hyfling wrote:1 step forward, 2 steps back.

We come together 'cause opposites attract, and you know

Take it, DJ Skat Kat!

it ain't fiction just a natural fact, We come together 'cause opposites attract!

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:37 pm

Liriena wrote:While an outsider's perspective on any issue is always valuable, I do think there's a case to be made for certain types of approaches from "outsiders" being condescending towards the people whose lives are being discussed, the "outsiders'" perspective being one at least partially derived from ignorant prejudices, rather than a thoughtful, critical analysis.

One could argue that the debates being had in the United States regarding the relationship between African Americans and law enforcement have prominently featured at one point or another some form of what you could call "whitesplaining": non-African Americans condescendingly lecturing others, including African Americans themselves, on whether their grievances are legitimate, and what the true source of their problems are, without actually delving into the lives of African Americans.

Again, not being a member of the community affected by a certain problem does not automatically disqualify you from speaking about that problem or proposing a solution to it. As an outsider, you have the unique opportunity of approaching the problem without any of the "common sense" that permeates the community affected and influences their self-perception. Providing thoughtful commentary as an outsider is not, in itself, "whitesplaining". Providing prejudiced and condescending commentary, however, and using that commentary as a tool to delegitimise the insiders' perspectives in favour of your own, is "whitesplaining".


GODDAMMIT, THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT RACIAL RELATIONS ON NSG!!! IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO NOTHING BUT BE REASONABLE AND NUANCED, THEN I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOUR PURPOSE IS HERE!!!

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:40 pm

Hyfling wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:We come together 'cause opposites attract, and you know

Take it, DJ Skat Kat!

it ain't fiction just a natural fact, We come together 'cause opposites attract!


Hold that thought!

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Parhe
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Whitesplaining

Postby Parhe » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:10 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Arana wrote:I did, actually.

Then read it again.
But let me 'whitesplain' something to you (did I use that right?).

No, you didn't. That's how I know you didn't read the thread.
I, as a white person, do have an idea of what it's like to be a black person in the United States. How is that possible? Because I'm aware of things that happen that aren't related to me. I watch the news. I read things online. I've read a fucking history book.

It is actually hilarious that you think this would allow you to talk about living as a racial minority on equal standing with a member of a racial minority. In fact it's not hilarious, it's sad. You don't know what it feels like to receive hostile service because you're black. You don't know what it's like to have stereotypes applied to you because you're asian. You don't know what it's like to be suspected as an illegal immigrant because you don't speak english. You have comparatively no idea.
So I think maybe, just maybe, I know enough to discuss with a black person how they might best go about achieving change for themselves.

As long as by "discuss" you mean listen when it's your turn to do so. Which would be a lot of the time, by the sounds of it.

Is this irony? Don't be bring other groups into it. I may disagree with you but I at least thought you would know better. Guess what, maybe you don't know what it is like to be Asian. You being a minority doesn't mean you are representative of all minorities. I don't go around talking about the experiences of African Americans as if I know because I am also another minority.
Last edited by Parhe on Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:29 pm

This thread is proof positive that no matter how much you try to tiptoe around white people's feelings in America, it will never be enough.

"Whitesplaining" is an attempt to give the condescending holier-than-thou attitude whites have about minorities a non-offensive name. Predictably, it has failed. Because oh no, how dare anyone suggest that just because you're white, doesn't mean you're not an ignorant jackass.
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Braberland
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Postby Braberland » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:33 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:This thread is proof positive that no matter how much you try to tiptoe around white people's feelings in America, it will never be enough.

"Whitesplaining" is an attempt to give the condescending holier-than-thou attitude whites have about minorities a non-offensive name. Predictably, it has failed. Because oh no, how dare anyone suggest that just because you're white, doesn't mean you're not an ignorant jackass.

"REEE I don't like living in a majority white nation and didn't follow my brothas and sistas to Liberia so I'll just accuse whites of racism and create a fictional race war."

I'm referring you to page one of this thread.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:35 pm

Braberland wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:This thread is proof positive that no matter how much you try to tiptoe around white people's feelings in America, it will never be enough.

"Whitesplaining" is an attempt to give the condescending holier-than-thou attitude whites have about minorities a non-offensive name. Predictably, it has failed. Because oh no, how dare anyone suggest that just because you're white, doesn't mean you're not an ignorant jackass.

"REEE I don't like living in a majority white nation and didn't follow my brothas and sistas to Liberia so I'll just accuse whites of racism and create a fictional race war."

I'm referring you to page one of this thread.

You act like one can't be both white and anti-racist.
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Braberland
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Postby Braberland » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:37 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Braberland wrote:"REEE I don't like living in a majority white nation and didn't follow my brothas and sistas to Liberia so I'll just accuse whites of racism and create a fictional race war."

I'm referring you to page one of this thread.

You act like one can't be both white and anti-racist.

I'm actually defending the fact. Whitesplaining is discrimination.

Like I said in my first post, go try out Rhodesia first and then try to moan about "muh racism in muh 21st century".
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:41 pm

Braberland wrote:
Like I said in my first post, go try out Rhodesia first and then try to moan about "muh racism in muh 21st century".

Why?
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:42 pm

Braberland wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You act like one can't be both white and anti-racist.

I'm actually defending the fact. Whitesplaining is discrimination.

Like I said in my first post, go try out Rhodesia first and then try to moan about "muh racism in muh 21st century".


"There were once whites elsewhere who were actually legally obligated to discriminate against you darkies! Be grateful that we're only doing so through unconscious bias, and occasional conscious choice!"

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Cenetra
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Postby Cenetra » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:00 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:This thread is proof positive that no matter how much you try to tiptoe around white people's feelings in America, it will never be enough.

"Whitesplaining" is an attempt to give the condescending holier-than-thou attitude whites have about minorities a non-offensive name. Predictably, it has failed. Because oh no, how dare anyone suggest that just because you're white, doesn't mean you're not an ignorant jackass.


You're sure the way the term went from "a white person being condescending to a non-white person about racial issues" to "a white person disagreeing with a non-white person about racial issues" doesn't have anything to do with it?

I've been lucky enough to not see people get accused of "whitesplaining" often, but when I have it's pretty much always been an easier way of saying: "You are automatically wrong because you are white. I win the argument." It's just a condensed Ad Hominem fallacy.

If you want to call out people acting like experts when they know nothing about an issue, then call out the actual behavior. Attempts to use cute little buzzwords for a particular group's bad behavior very quickly get misused to the point where they lose all meaning.
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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:02 pm

Braberland wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:This thread is proof positive that no matter how much you try to tiptoe around white people's feelings in America, it will never be enough.

"Whitesplaining" is an attempt to give the condescending holier-than-thou attitude whites have about minorities a non-offensive name. Predictably, it has failed. Because oh no, how dare anyone suggest that just because you're white, doesn't mean you're not an ignorant jackass.

"REEE I don't like living in a majority white nation and didn't follow my brothas and sistas to Liberia so I'll just accuse whites of racism and create a fictional race war."

I'm referring you to page one of this thread.

Apparently Stormfront is leaking.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:05 pm

Braberland wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You act like one can't be both white and anti-racist.

I'm actually defending the fact. Whitesplaining is discrimination.

Like I said in my first post, go try out Rhodesia first and then try to moan about "muh racism in muh 21st century".

Racism can exist in degrees. Levels. There's a difference between "blatant proclaimed affirmed racism in all aspects of society" and "covert internalized racism in certain industries and aspects of government."
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:16 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Braberland wrote:"REEE I don't like living in a majority white nation and didn't follow my brothas and sistas to Liberia so I'll just accuse whites of racism and create a fictional race war."

I'm referring you to page one of this thread.

Apparently Stormfront is leaking.

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