Segregated Bathrooms: A Problem?

[USS Monitor]

I think women's safe spaces are useful in a few limited contexts, such as rape crisis centers where a woman who was recently raped might be more comfortable seeking help from other women, as opposed to men. If men need their own space for similar reasons, it is totally fine to have a men's safe space.

But that's not what a public bathroom or a commuter train is for.

No I disagree, like we won't allow a white-only safe space or a black-only safe space. Considering that I've been treated as vulnerable and in need of protection before (because of blindness), it gets very, very tiring to see it around the world so much. If you want to stop violence, maybe stop emphasising difference so much.

If someone is traumatized because they just got raped, that's not the time to pressure them to open their mind and be less standoffish with the opposite gender.

If you don't need a safe space, then just don't use it. It's not a reason it shouldn't exist for the people who do need it.

[Chessmistress]

I agree with that.
If there would be bathrooms for women, for males and ALSO unisex bathrooms, that would be great.
There's even another solution for universal unisex bathrooms, but it's very difficult to apply in public places: single-occupancy lockable little bathrooms. If a bathroom can hold just only one person and it can be locked, well, such bathroom can be used regardless of sex.
That's EXACTLY the kind of bathroom most people have in their homes, and that's the main reason why within private houses there aren't segregated bathrooms.

You know stalls have locks on the doors, right?

You know there's even a larger space within a public bathroom, not just only stalls?

[Chessmistress]

If someone is traumatized because they just got raped, that's not the time to pressure them to open their mind and be less standoffish with the opposite gender.

If you don't need a safe space, then just don't use it. It's not a reason it shouldn't exist for the people who do need it.

And if someone just only prefer to avoid the opposite gender within a bathroom?
She can admit it, and she'll be admitted in the women's bathroom
Or she have just to lie, saying she was sexually harassed in the past, in order to be free to follow her preference?

[CoraSpia]

You know stalls have locks on the doors, right?

You know there's even a larger space within a public bathroom, not just only stalls?

You know those bathrooms are pulic? Like...anyone can walk in? In fact, man-on-man rape might actually be decreased by unisex bathrooms, because you've doubled the amount of people who can walk in.

[Chessmistress]

You know there's even a larger space within a public bathroom, not just only stalls?

You know those bathrooms are pulic? Like...anyone can walk in? In fact, man-on-man rape might actually be decreased by unisex bathrooms, because you've doubled the amount of people who can walk in.

No, because if you switch both bathrooms to unisex, you've doubled the amount of people who can walk in a bathroom but also you've doubled the amount of bathrooms each person is allowed to walk in.

Maybe another good solution would be switch male bathrooms to unisex bathrooms while retaining women's bathrooms oh, I'm not serious, I'm just joking...

[The Alexanderians]

It is commonly taught that modern Western societies are no longer segregated. However, this is a lie. Society might no longer be racially segregated, but bathrooms remain segregated. Males can only use one of two sets of bathrooms in a building/floor, and females can only use the other of the two sets.

Is this a problem?

I think it is. Segregated bathrooms must end.

Segregated bathrooms will continue to promote divisions in society between the genders and the sexes; they are also unacceptably callous towards people who might not identify comfortably with either of the two genders/sexes or who may look different from the side they would rather identify with. It is a pointless exercise in social division. What is the point in keeping bathrooms separate? It does nothing but reinforce labels.

There is another problem. It is unfair for the females. Females generally wait longer than males to use the facilities; this is discrimination. I can speak from personal experience. Having traveled to many parts of the planet it always seems the case that the line-up for the female side is much longer. Why is this? Well its because of the design. Facilities are separate but NOT equal. Male facilities have exclusive access to urinals and so the line up is shorter. The true solution to equality is to have one bathroom for all genders and to remove the urinals (females can't use them anyway and they provide an unfair advantage to a set of the population in wait time). This way, EVERYONE gets an average wait time for relief that is approximately equal and that isn't affected by the availability of equipment. You can still maintain two washrooms per building but EVERYONE should be allowed to use either one and they should both be completely stocked with bowls.

Bathrooms should be unified. What are people scared of?

So here is the discussion question.

1. Are segregated bathrooms a problem?

2. What should/can be done to reform current facilities to promote equality?

1. No, it's so much of a non-problem I can't see any reasonable person investing time or money in this.

2. Leave them as they are (sort of I'll get to what I mean). Men can use urinals, so what? You make them use stalls, you waste space and they'll still pee standing up only this way there's going to be urine sprayed all over the seat. Plus urinals (when abiding to proper waste-reduction standards) use far less water than toilets do. So why would anyone use more water that takes up more space when you can use a far more efficient alternative? Plus the fact that it seems men get out of bathrooms faster has little to do with urinals (capacity aside), it's because men are really bad at washing their hands. They do it too fast or circumvent it all together and therefore spend a lot less time in the bathrooms increasing turn over. Women also have smaller bladders on average and are far more likely to develop UTI. If you want to accommodate both men and women, a better option than mushing them into the same bathroom, bathroom size must be taken into consideration. Make women's bathrooms 2-3 times larger (not just space I mean increase the capacity of the stalls) than men's and you equalize them out in terms of capacity and turn over.

If you want to bring alternative identities into this (complex enough as it is) they are too small a portion of the population to warrant it, not that they should be forced to use restrooms they are uncomfortable with on the contrary they should have access to the "unisex bathrooms" or how my collage puts it "all gender-inclusive" (unisex in all but name ). Small bathrooms meant for 1 or 2 people, often times has a stall and a urinal for the 2 person ones. They are located in almost every building on campus and may be used by anyone not comfortable with using the regular ones. Usually for privacy reasons but we do have a few people that just want to use them flat out instead (they're often cleaner than the regular ones).

[USS Monitor]

If someone is traumatized because they just got raped, that's not the time to pressure them to open their mind and be less standoffish with the opposite gender.

If you don't need a safe space, then just don't use it. It's not a reason it shouldn't exist for the people who do need it.

And if someone just only prefer to avoid the opposite gender within a bathroom?
She can admit it, and she'll be admitted in the women's bathroom
Or she have just to lie, saying she was sexually harassed in the past, in order to be free to follow her preference?

There wouldn't be women's bathrooms in public places like airports or shopping malls.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

We should have sexless bathrooms with CCTV cameras in every stall. I'm sure that would create jobs for a particular sort of person.

Yeah ... no. I did say 'no creepy and no invasive' there, for damn good reasons.

To some of the other comments and suggestions: Of course people just not being assholes could go a long way too, but the day someone finds a cure for that is probably a good long ways off.

[Ethel mermania]

And if someone just only prefer to avoid the opposite gender within a bathroom?
She can admit it, and she'll be admitted in the women's bathroom
Or she have just to lie, saying she was sexually harassed in the past, in order to be free to follow her preference?

There wouldn't be women's bathrooms in public places like airports or shopping malls.

Or 19th century warships.

[Neutraligon]

Because we don't want to and there's no reason to change.

Exactly

People didn't want blacks and whites in the same room. What is the difference?

[Grave_n_idle]

Frankly, I'm all in favour of women's safe spaces. And men's safe spaces. And kid's safe spaces. And... etc.

Safe spaces are a good think for at-risk and vulnerable people. We should have more - many more - not less.

Speaking as someone who has been considered a 'vulnerable' person by society for far too long for me to like, I hate the idea of 'safe spaces.'

Because you know what happens when you treat problems with cotton wool and protection? Those vulnerable people you want to help, they've just become that little bit more vulnerable.

I think that's silly. Taking 'battered wives' as an example, taking them out of an abusive household is making them LESS vulnerable, not more. Putting signs in Braille and limiting inline hazards is making blind people LESS vulnerable, not more.

I'm not pretending to understand your experience - I've never been blind (or a battered woman) - but I do think that it's silly to argue safe spaces make people more vulnerable.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

There wouldn't be women's bathrooms in public places like airports or shopping malls.

Or 19th century warships.

I'd almost forgotten I'd have to answer some of this shit in wading into discussions more actively ... ye gods. *facepalm*

I don't know why you seem to have to turn everything into a fight, a poor women thing, or anti-man thing, or create problems that don't exist considering we're full up with those that do, Chessy, but really. "THEY WILL HAVE TO LIE TO USE THE BATHROOM" is a new one on me.

[Grave_n_idle]

We should have sexless bathrooms with CCTV cameras in every stall. I'm sure that would create jobs for a particular sort of person.

Yeah ... no. I did say 'no creepy and no invasive' there, for damn good reasons.

To some of the other comments and suggestions: Of course people just not being assholes could go a long way too, but the day someone finds a cure for that is probably a good long ways off.

I'd be willing to pay a large proportion more taxes to that research.

So many problems could be solved by that vaccine.

[United States of Conner]

I'd almost forgotten I'd have to answer some of this shit in wading into discussions more actively ... ye gods. *facepalm*

Welcome to NSG. People who leave for more than a week tend to forget what it's like, I would know.

[Ethel mermania]

Or 19th century warships.

I'd almost forgotten I'd have to answer some of this shit in wading into discussions more actively ... ye gods. *facepalm*

I don't know why you seem to have to turn everything into a fight, a poor women thing, or anti-man thing, or create problems that don't exist considering we're full up with those that do, Chessy, but really. "THEY WILL HAVE TO LIE TO USE THE BATHROOM" is a new one on me.

Are you sure your answering the right post?

Pointy sticks at dawn. Newbie

[Grave_n_idle]

"Approximately 4/5 of assaults are committed by someone known to the victim. 47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance."

https://rainn.org/statistics

"47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance" sounds to me "53% rapists are unknown person, you're 12,6759% more likely to be raped by an unknown person than by a friend or acquaintance".
It's still enough to be afraid by unknown persons within a public bathroom...

Nope. The weakness or vulnerability of the target seems to be pretty much irrelevant. The relationship and the specific target seems to be the overarching factor in deciding victims.

Wrong, in 53% cases of rape there's no previous relationship between the rapist and the victim.

Is it the statistics that are confusing you? Because... that's not what it said...

[Neutraligon]

I don't see a problem with a block of restrooms that have no designation, so long as there are other options available for those who have serious issues, and so long as there is some sort of monitoring going on that doesn't cross the line into creepy or invasive - and only where appropriate or applicable. There's already tiny places with one room, one toilet as is after all.

High class restrooms have been shown as having an attendant. With the job issues out there, for large event areas, heavy traffic areas for the public and the like where such a need for more bathrooms is needed, why not? You provide reasonable safety, thus negating some of the fears. You provide a genderless environment, thus eliminating some of the problems on that equation. You provide more jobs which ought to help plenty of people, in addition to the other benefits. And if you continue to use some of the facilities that are already divided by gender, that seems to sort out the rest of it more or less.

None of this is rocket science. If new buildings were planned along these lines, it'd be no problem. Existing structures would simply have to be looked at individually, and those able to make changes, could. Those not, c'est la vie, one does what one can.

One more example of people getting their panties in a twist over things that could be sorted with a bit of sense and compromise.

When I was in Europe some of the places had public restrooms (you had to pay) so each had an attendant you had to pay.

[Greater Soviet Ukraine]

I don't see a problem with a block of restrooms that have no designation, so long as there are other options available for those who have serious issues, and so long as there is some sort of monitoring going on that doesn't cross the line into creepy or invasive - and only where appropriate or applicable. There's already tiny places with one room, one toilet as is after all.

High class restrooms have been shown as having an attendant. With the job issues out there, for large event areas, heavy traffic areas for the public and the like where such a need for more bathrooms is needed, why not? You provide reasonable safety, thus negating some of the fears. You provide a genderless environment, thus eliminating some of the problems on that equation. You provide more jobs which ought to help plenty of people, in addition to the other benefits. And if you continue to use some of the facilities that are already divided by gender, that seems to sort out the rest of it more or less.

None of this is rocket science. If new buildings were planned along these lines, it'd be no problem. Existing structures would simply have to be looked at individually, and those able to make changes, could. Those not, c'est la vie, one does what one can.

One more example of people getting their panties in a twist over things that could be sorted with a bit of sense and compromise.

When I was in Europe some of the places had public restrooms (you had to pay) so each had an attendant you had to pay.

Same thing in China, weirdly. And their public bathrooms are literal shit.

[Greater Soviet Ukraine]

I'd almost forgotten I'd have to answer some of this shit in wading into discussions more actively ... ye gods. *facepalm*

Welcome to NSG. People who leave for more than a week tend to forget what it's like, I would know.

Wow..... did you just try to talk down to Nathicana?

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

EM .... >_< Damn that quote-limiter, I say! Damn it right to R/D!
I mean .... *ahem* >_>

Indeed. A cure for the stupids, for chronic assoleism, for biggotry, bias and overall 'why do I have to share my air with this cretin' types?
But then who would we bitch about, or write witty memes on, or share vids and pics of online for open mockery? A conundrum, indeed. *shakes fist impotently*

[Greater Soviet Ukraine]

EM .... >_< Damn that quote-limiter, I say! Damn it right to R/D!
I mean .... *ahem* >_>

Indeed. A cure for the stupids, for chronic assoleism, for biggotry, bias and overall 'why do I have to share my air with this cretin' types?
But then who would we bitch about, or write witty memes on, or share vids and pics of online for open mockery? A conundrum, indeed. *shakes fist impotently*

That needs to be a word.

[Neutraligon]

When I was in Europe some of the places had public restrooms (you had to pay) so each had an attendant you had to pay.

Same thing in China, weirdly. And their public bathrooms are literal shit.

That depends, the funny thing is a lot of the public restrooms in China had no stalls. (for that matter most had those squat toilets). Took a while to learn how to use those without taking of the pants. Hell when I was in the more backwater areas of China (where restrooms are not common) people did their business on the side of the road. For that matter, little kids went and used the bushes as often as not since diapers were not used.

[United States of Conner]

EM .... >_< Damn that quote-limiter, I say! Damn it right to R/D!
I mean .... *ahem* >_>

Indeed. A cure for the stupids, for chronic assoleism, for biggotry, bias and overall 'why do I have to share my air with this cretin' types?
But then who would we bitch about, or write witty memes on, or share vids and pics of online for open mockery? A conundrum, indeed. *shakes fist impotently*

I did miss the DLN.

[Greater Soviet Ukraine]

Same thing in China, weirdly. And their public bathrooms are literal shit.

That depends, the funny thing is a lot of the public restrooms in China had no stalls. (for that matter most had those squat toilets). Took a while to learn how to use those without taking of the pants. Hell when I was in the more backwater areas of China (where restrooms are not common) people did their business on the side of the road.

It's not just the backwater. In Beijing, there's a ton of feces on the sidewalks. I swear some of them are human, not just dog.

[Ethel mermania]

EM .... >_< Damn that quote-limiter, I say! Damn it right to R/D!
I mean .... *ahem* >_>

Indeed. A cure for the stupids, for chronic assoleism, for biggotry, bias and overall 'why do I have to share my air with this cretin' types?
But then who would we bitch about, or write witty memes on, or share vids and pics of online for open mockery? A conundrum, indeed. *shakes fist impotently*

Heh, I sort of like the idea of men's, women's and single room family restrooms, which is something you see in new public space construction, and folks who are not comfortable using a sexed restroom for any reason can use the family restroom. Some people don't like peeing in the sake room as others, and can be accommodated with trans folks as well.