Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Shazbotdom]

Screw you shitstains.

Im fucking done with this debate, pro choicers, go fuck yourself in a pool of baby blood.

Dude,

One person to another,

Rules

Read those. They are your Bible for this web site. Calling someone "shitstain" and telling people to "go fuck yourself" is in violation of those rules.

[Aelex]

Pro-life is anti-feminist. If you are anti-feminist, then maybe it's time we take down the patriarchy.

I'm anti-feminist (and anti-meninist) yet I'm still Pro-Choice. U mad?

[Freedlande]

Hey washington, I wont read your telegram, as it is most likely filled to the brim with complete bullshit.

[Ashmoria]

Abortion is immoral,and a cancer I feel will never go away.So many abortions have been caused due to unmarried sex and simple ignorance on the subject,sex is not for recreation it is for procreation.

youre right, it will never go away. there will aways be a need to terminate pregnancies.

the best YOU can do is promote free and freely available contraception, sex education and abortion services (so that abortions can be done as early as possible)

[Washington Resistance Army]

Hey washington, I wont read your telegram, as it is most likely filled to the brim with complete bullshit.

Why do you have to hurt me?

Pro-life is anti-feminist. If you are anti-feminist, then maybe it's time we take down the patriarchy.

I'm anti-feminist (and anti-meninist) yet I'm still Pro-Choice. U mad?

I think I'm kinda in the same boat as you. I'm pro-choice but I'm entirely against a lot of the nonsense of modern feminism.

[Freedlande]

Mods please lock this thread. Its becoming a flame war

[Ifreann]

Mods please lock this thread. Its becoming a flame war

You calling people shitstains repeatedly doesn't constitute a flame war and won't get this thread locked. In fact, nothing you can do will get this thread locked. You'll get banned and we'll carry on discussing abortion without you.

[Aelex]

Mods please lock this thread. Its becoming a flame war

When you can't have something, just burn it with fire. :nod nod:

[Shazbotdom]

Mods please lock this thread. Its becoming a flame war

The only one "flaming" would be yourself. Everyone else is carrying on without resorting to rule-breaking.

[Dyakovo]

Mods please lock this thread. Its becoming a flame war

When you can't have something, just burn it with fire. :nod nod:

Far more effective than trying to burn it with monkeys...
Trust me, iI've tried...

[Sedgistan]

http://www.listland.com/10-reasons-abortion-should-be-illegal/

Have fun reading that, pieces of sh**.

Heres a one less filled with bullshit and more filled with legal reasons.

http://www.lifenews.com/2014/04/01/thre ... be-banned/

Theres a less bullshitty one. Read through it this time shitstain.

You DIDNT READ THE ARTICLE. YOU ARE JUST A FUCKING SHITSTAIN TOO AFRAID TO BE PROVEN WRONG. HERES THE ARTICLE LINK.

http://www.listland.com/10-reasons-abor ... e-illegal/

You pro choicers make me want to gorge myself in shit.

Screw you shitstains.

Im fucking done with this debate, pro choicers, go fuck yourself in a pool of baby blood.

Given that you picked up a warning on 'Arcticoa' yesterday, and another this morning on this nation, and yet are continuing to flame and bait I'm giving you a *** 3 day ban *** from the forums. Do not post past ban with any other nations or both of them will be deleted. The ban applies to you, the player.

You need to read the rules and start playing by them, quickly, or your time on this site will be brief.

[Aelex]

When you can't have something, just burn it with fire. :nod nod:

Far more effective than trying to burn it with monkeys...
Trust me, iI've tried...

I do trust you, I tried myself to burn people with baby seals and matches. It didn't went as good as I hoped...

[Ashmoria]

No, it really won't. If it can't use a simple word correctly it will not change my opinion on anything. It's full of idiotic things like "Abortion is murder", "Abortion is Nazi", "Abortion is against God" etc.

Abortion is by definition not murder, the Nazi's opposed abortion entirely (unless performed on subhumans) and I don't believe in your god. Next.

You DIDNT READ THE ARTICLE. YOU ARE JUST A FUCKING SHITSTAIN TOO AFRAID TO BE PROVEN WRONG. HERES THE ARTICLE LINK.

http://www.listland.com/10-reasons-abor ... e-illegal/

why don't you tell us what point it makes that you find most compelling?

[Dyakovo]

You DIDNT READ THE ARTICLE. YOU ARE JUST A FUCKING SHITSTAIN TOO AFRAID TO BE PROVEN WRONG. HERES THE ARTICLE LINK.

http://www.listland.com/10-reasons-abor ... e-illegal/

why don't you tell us what point it makes that you find most compelling?

Kinda hard for him to do right now...

[Wallenburg]

why don't you tell us what point it makes that you find most compelling?

Kinda hard for him to do right now...

The world will never know...

[Ashmoria]

why don't you tell us what point it makes that you find most compelling?

Kinda hard for him to do right now...

awwwww

well maybe he can enlighten us when he gets back.

[Dyakovo]

Kinda hard for him to do right now...

awwwww

well maybe he can enlighten us when he gets back.

I doubt it... I mean, his most compelling "argument" was calling us shitstains...

[Ashmoria]

awwwww

well maybe he can enlighten us when he gets back.

I doubt it... I mean, his most compelling "argument" was calling us shitstains...

if you had only read his link it would have changed your life.

I was particularly interested in him defending how abortion is unconstitutional even after decades of affirmation by the supreme court.

[BK117B2]

Read it, and your opinion will change on the situation.

As long as it is readable, READ IT.

I read it.

It's the same blather as always.

Here, let me grab the titles of each of the ten sections.

10. The Legal Decision in Roe v Wade is Wrong
9. Abortion denies the fetus the right to life as safeguarded in the US Constitution
8. Abortion is Murder
7. Abortion is not Contraception
6. Selective Abortion is discriminatory and the modern day equivalent of eugenics
5. Abortion allows man to act against the will of God
4. Abortion makes human life disposable, Doctors were originally forbidden to practice abortion for this reason. These days abortion is big business.
3. Abortion can result in medical complications and psychological trauma for women
2. Abortion reduces the number of babies available for adoption
1. Fetuses are capable of feeling pain

10. I'm sure someone else can refute this better than me, because I'm not well-versed in law.
9. And banning abortion denies women the right to their own bodies, as safeguarded in the International Declaration of Human Rights.
8. No, it's not, by the very definition of murder.
7. Yes, it is.
6. No, it's not.
5. And?
4. Human life is already incredibly disposable, honestly.
3. So can being forced to carry a pregnancy to term.
2. The foster care system is already overburdened.
1. No, they can respond to stimuli. So can plants.

Yeah, that list is pretty weird.

A few more additions I'd like to make:

7) utterly irrelevant in any possible case. If 'not contraception' is a reason to be illegal, then posting lists on the internet should be illegal....as well as breathing, eating....yeah, pretty much everything

5) Our Constitution prohibits such laws

3) carrying to term involves MORE risk

2) and that's a GOOD thing. Contraception and abstinence reduce the number of babies....should those be illegal?

[Justin States 3]

Creator of this thread is wrong.

Fetus is not a person, therefore it can't be murder.

Seriously, unconscious mixture of few cells doesn't count as 'human being'. So again, it can't possibly be a murder by any definition of it.

We can debate, though, when exactly it can be declared as a human being: when fetus is alive on it's own, with beating heart and already functional brain.

And yes, I call it 'IT'.

*applauds* I agree.
It is the woman's choice.

[Mega City 5]

So apparently, there's been a flame war in my absense?

Well, I'm not wading through it to find the last set of replies to my stuff. I'll take up the argument again, on this new day, from memory, and I wish to do so by "taking a step back," so to speak.

Once again, I renew the question: "Why does consent matter?" And however you answer this question, you'll find that your answer hinges upon nature (understood as what an x is insofar as Y, its being Y being understood as the innate source of its drives, operations, etc.; the nature of a stone is to be a stone, and its nature as a stone explains why it falls to the ground when dropped). Why does consent matter? Previous posters told me that consent matters because it is the source of all of our "rights," understood as freedoms or permissions. "It alone is what prevents other people from doing whatever they want to me."

[The comedy of this answer, of course, briefly should be noted. 1. This very "right," which is claimed to be the source of all our protections, is being used as a justification and excuse to murder unborn children...so much for their protections, freedoms, etc. So much for other people not being able to do whatever they want to someone else. 2. These very same "rights," which, by their description, are only described as negative (permission), are set against each other, the invariable result of which is to...force someone else to do what the "winner" of the rights contest wants. [Non-discrimination laws come to mind; the Kim Davis case comes to mind.]]

Nonetheless: why does consent matter? "It alone is what prevents other people from doing whatever they want to me." Again: why does this matter? I'll keep asking this question until you admit one of the following:

1. You have no basis for saying that you should be protected rather than not other than your own whims and desires (which I may safely disregard if I have contrary desires and whims and sufficient might to back them up; this is Nietzsche's point, ultimately, isn't it? The ubermensch comes to mind; your appeals to "consent," under this view, do not express any sacrosanct and inviolable moral value; they only identify you as a member of the slavish herd, as a weak, pathetic sheep).

2. You recognize that your very nature as a human being gives you a certain inviolable dignity and worth which may not justly be violated. In other words: your very nature as a human being makes you a subject of justice and right (right understood not in the sense of this modern foolishness, but in the classic understanding of "the right," i.e., of claims of justice and obligation).

Either consent does not matter, or else, nature ultimately (in the natural order, of course; I do not wish to enter into a theological discussion) is the source and well-spring of ethics. Again: either consent does not matter, or else, nature is even more fundamental than consent and is the very basis for its moral relevence. Expressed a third time: either consent does not matter, or else, justice matters even more and consent only properly may be understood in terms of justice.

Let us consider, once more, the first principle of practical reason (according to St. Thomas Aquinas): "Do good and avoid evil."

You will, of course, accuse me of the so called "naturalistic fallacy." I'll answer that it's not actually a fallacy, at least, not in certain understandings. I'll quote St. Thomas Aquinas in answer: ens et verum et bonum convertuntur (being, true and good are convertible or co-extensive with each other). It is the being and truth apprehended by the intellect which we subsequently will and desire as good. (It is in this light that we should understand Pope Francis a while back; when he said "do good and avoid evil," he was just quoting St. Thomas Aquinas.)

For this, I need give no argument, since it is plainly evident from day to day experience. What do you know except insofar as it is true and being? What do you desire except under the description of the good? As color is to sight or sound is to hearing, so too is being and truth to the intellect, and so too is good to the will. [It is in this light that we should understand Maritain's insistence that man is "an intellectual universe of knowledge and love." He has an intrinsic and innate ordering to the truth and being of things in virtue of his intellectual faculties, and an innate ordering to good, as lovable, through his will; in fact, this very ordering of the intellectual faculties to being and truth as such and of the will to the good as such speaks to the fact that each human being is made in the image and likeness of God and is made to know and love God forever; the natural longing of the human being to know truth and being and the natural love of the human being for the good, because these analogons are infinite, only can be brought to rest and satisfied in the "face to face vision" of Infinite Being, Truth and Good; as St. Augustine says in the Confessions: "Our hearts are restless Lord..."]

Thus, just as being never is presented to us, in this state of life, except "covered in essence [i.e., the nature of the thing]," so to speak, as Maritain says somewhere, so too the work of the practical intellect, when it "puts its hand to the plow," so to speak, always must be to enter into a consideration of the concrete good to be done here and now in these circumstances (thus the great importance and indispensable nature of the virtue of prudence), dealing with these determinate kinds of things. "What is the good to be done here and now given that we are dealing with this kind of thing in these circumstances?"

Ethics depends upon nature.

Why is it wrong to commit acts of injustice against a human being? Why is it wrong to murder him, to steal from him, etc? Because he is a human being.

I'll end this particular bit here and continue the argument in a new posting.

[Geilinor]

Why is it wrong to commit acts of injustice against a human being? Why is it wrong to murder him, to steal from him, etc? Because he is a human being.

I'll end this particular bit here and continue the argument in a new posting.

You've never managed to explain why abortion is equivalent to murder. That's the fatal flaw in your argument.

[Mega City 5]

You've never managed to explain why abortion is equivalent to murder. That's the fatal flaw in your argument.

Geilinor, I'm afraid that you've misunderstood the point and general "thrust" of the argument above. Please re-read it. I'll be continuing the argument later. My point here is the consent is not fundamental. Nature is.

[Galloism]

Screw you shitstains.

Im fucking done with this debate, pro choicers, go fuck yourself in a pool of baby blood.

Na, you shouldn't fuck in baby blood. Just use it to make delicious yummy yummy blood sausage to eat with the corpses of the aborted "beeeeeeeeeybaaaaaaaaaaays".

You'd have to cut it with aspirin anyway to prevent coagulation. Blood dries and coagulates quickly when exposed to the open air.

[Ifreann]

So apparently, there's been a flame war in my absense?

Well, I'm not wading through it to find the last set of replies to my stuff.

You may wish to note that you were warned for trolling.

Oh, and stones fall to the ground because of gravity, not because they're stones.