Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Sanctissima]

It's not a strawman, it's a very reasonable deduction. You're saying that it's essentially impossible to prove whether or not someone is telling the truth when they say they've been raped.

That inherently means you think most, if not all cases of rape ultimately come down to hearsay.

Words.

Mouth.

Spit.

Face.

Then explain how this isn't the case.

You made a claim that my system wouldn't work since most rape allegations would be hearsay. If that's what you think, then how is this not currently applicable to most rape cases?

[Camelza]

First error: Abortion is not murder.

Primary mistake: Your opinion does not constitute sufficient basis to deny the rights of others to control their own body.



Because it is, as self-defense laws agree, and my position does not involve denying others the right to control their own body on the basis of an opinion.



Again, high horse.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

The only thing abortion is missing is the "unlawful" part, and even that varies by country.

And in case you didn't notice, your belief that the rights of the fetus should be denied is also an opinion.

Once more, impasse.

You may ignore my post, but I insist:

Biology, medicine, law, philosophy, and theology have no consensus on the issue, and neither does society as a whole. There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim, so we must give the benefit of the doubt to women, who are indisputable human beings with rights.
Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body to survive. Soemeone might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. Anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. She can’t hire someone else to do it. Furthermore, a fetus doesn't just depend on a woman's body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They do not gain the status of human being by virtue of living inside the body of another human being

[Geilinor]

A rape exception would only take effect when the rapist was convicted. Right?

No, it would be granted immediately, upon request. If the investigation uncovers that she lied, then there are consequences.

Then a lot of people will lie to get past your unjust law, which would be unconstitutional in both of our countries.

[Ashmoria]

Words.

Mouth.

Spit.

Face.

Then explain how this isn't the case.

You made a claim that my system wouldn't work since most rape allegations would be hearsay. If that's what you think, then how is this not currently applicable to most rape cases?

today women have no big incentive to make up rape allegations. if a woman says she was raped the police take it seriously.

if crying rape is the only way to be allowed to get an abortion then EVERY woman who wants an abortion is going to cry rape. that not only messes up the lives of countless men who had innocent sex with a woman who got pregnant but it would also mess up the cases of all those women who really were raped.

[Sanctissima]

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

The only thing abortion is missing is the "unlawful" part, and even that varies by country.

And in case you didn't notice, your belief that the rights of the fetus should be denied is also an opinion.

Once more, impasse.

You may ignore my post, but I insist:

Biology, medicine, law, philosophy, and theology have no consensus on the issue, and neither does society as a whole. There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim, so we must give the benefit of the doubt to women, who are indisputable human beings with rights.
Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body to survive. Soemeone might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. Anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. She can’t hire someone else to do it. Furthermore, a fetus doesn't just depend on a woman's body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They do not gain the status of human being by virtue of living inside the body of another human being

I'm trying to respond to about 5 people at once, so sorry if it seems like I'm ignoring you.

Science is on my side when it comes to a fetus' classification as a living human being. The "being" part might be subjective, but there is no speculation whatsoever in terms of whether it is alive and human. This much is fact. As for its dependency on the mother, well, with all due respect I've gone over that several times already within the past couple of hours. I'd rather not do so again.

[Godular]

First error: Abortion is not murder.

Primary mistake: Your opinion does not constitute sufficient basis to deny the rights of others to control their own body.



Because it is, as self-defense laws agree, and my position does not involve denying others the right to control their own body on the basis of an opinion.



Again, high horse.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

The only thing abortion is missing is the "unlawful" part, and even that varies by country.

Indeed... let us hear more of these countries that you hold in such esteem. Are they pillars of liberty and equality? Are they paragons of enlightenment and rational thought?

And in case you didn't notice, your belief that the rights of the fetus should be denied is also an opinion.

It is not a denial of the rights of the fetus to prevent it from using another person's body against their will. This is attested to by self-defense laws. My position has actual basis to it. Yours, not so.

Once more, impasse.

High horse.

[Godular]

Then explain how this isn't the case.

You made a claim that my system wouldn't work since most rape allegations would be hearsay. If that's what you think, then how is this not currently applicable to most rape cases?

today women have no big incentive to make up rape allegations. if a woman says she was raped the police take it seriously.

if crying rape is the only way to be allowed to get an abortion then EVERY woman who wants an abortion is going to cry rape. that not only messes up the lives of countless men who had innocent sex with a woman who got pregnant but it would also mess up the cases of all those women who really were raped.

Exactly. I THOUGHT that point to be obvious.

[Sanctissima]

Then explain how this isn't the case.

You made a claim that my system wouldn't work since most rape allegations would be hearsay. If that's what you think, then how is this not currently applicable to most rape cases?

today women have no big incentive to make up rape allegations. if a woman says she was raped the police take it seriously.

if crying rape is the only way to be allowed to get an abortion then EVERY woman who wants an abortion is going to cry rape. that not only messes up the lives of countless men who had innocent sex with a woman who got pregnant but it would also mess up the cases of all those women who really were raped.

Then we punish it very severely when it's provable that the woman did lie. Create a deterrent.

[Godular]

today women have no big incentive to make up rape allegations. if a woman says she was raped the police take it seriously.

if crying rape is the only way to be allowed to get an abortion then EVERY woman who wants an abortion is going to cry rape. that not only messes up the lives of countless men who had innocent sex with a woman who got pregnant but it would also mess up the cases of all those women who really were raped.

Then we punish it very severely when it's provable that the woman did lie. Create a deterrent.

Holy shit, you just don't get the concept of unenforceable, do you?

[Kauthar]

notice how all abortion supporters are alive, is there any unborn abortion supporters??? No, there isn't.

[Camelza]

You may ignore my post, but I insist:

I'm trying to respond to about 5 people at once, so sorry if it seems like I'm ignoring you.

Science is on my side when it comes to a fetus' classification as a living human being. The "being" part might be subjective, but there is no speculation whatsoever in terms of whether it is alive and human. This much is fact. As for its dependency on the mother, well, with all due respect I've gone over that several times already within the past couple of hours. I'd rather not do so again.

The "being" part is quite important. Hair is human and is alive, yet we do not call haircuts "mass murder".
You also seem to ignore the whole point of being completely dependent and living specifically off the mother and none other.

[Geilinor]

notice how all abortion supporters are alive, is there any unborn abortion supporters??? No, there isn't.

Are there any unborn supporters or opponents of anything?

[Sanctissima]

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

The only thing abortion is missing is the "unlawful" part, and even that varies by country.

Indeed... let us hear more of these countries that you hold in such esteem. Are they pillars of liberty and equality? Are they paragons of enlightenment and rational thought?

And in case you didn't notice, your belief that the rights of the fetus should be denied is also an opinion.

It is not a denial of the rights of the fetus to prevent it from using another person's body against their will. This is attested to by self-defense laws. My position has actual basis to it. Yours, not so.

Once more, impasse.

High horse.

How the hell does this have anything to do with self-defense? Is the fetus some kind of "aggressor"?

Abortion's mostly illegal in Poland and Japan, and is on semi-legal in the UK, Iceland, Finland, Taiwan and South Korea. Those countries aren't all that bad.

Impasse.

[Godular]

notice how all abortion supporters are alive, is there any unborn abortion supporters??? No, there isn't.

I'm sure this sounded profound when you were typing it out.

[Kauthar]

notice how all abortion supporters are alive, is there any unborn abortion supporters??? No, there isn't.

Are there any unborn supporters or opponents of anything?

no, but my point still stands
also if you didn't know it's a ronald reagan quote

[Geilinor]

Abortion's mostly illegal in Poland and Japan, and is on semi-legal in the UK, Iceland, Finland, Taiwan and South Korea. Those countries aren't all that bad.

Impasse.

You don't want abortion to be semi-legal. You oppose it in all situations but rape.

[Wallenburg]

notice how all abortion supporters are alive, is there any unborn abortion supporters??? No, there isn't.

Reagan died a while ago, and I doubt his Alzheimer's did wonders for his thought process.

[Geilinor]

Are there any unborn supporters or opponents of anything?

no, but my point still stands
also if you didn't know it's a ronald reagan quote

The Ronald Reagan who signed a bill legalizing abortion in California.

[Kauthar]

Abortion's mostly illegal in Poland and Japan, and is on semi-legal in the UK, Iceland, Finland, Taiwan and South Korea. Those countries aren't all that bad.

Impasse.

You don't want abortion to be semi-legal. You oppose it in all situations but rape.

it should be illegal no matter what. it's like going into the town and shooting someone because they walked too close to you.

[Sanctissima]

Then we punish it very severely when it's provable that the woman did lie. Create a deterrent.

Holy shit, you just don't get the concept of unenforceable, do you?

It's quite enforceable, that's what an investigation is all about.

Hell, even a lie detector could give a pretty good hint as to whether or not they're telling the truth.

[Ashmoria]

today women have no big incentive to make up rape allegations. if a woman says she was raped the police take it seriously.

if crying rape is the only way to be allowed to get an abortion then EVERY woman who wants an abortion is going to cry rape. that not only messes up the lives of countless men who had innocent sex with a woman who got pregnant but it would also mess up the cases of all those women who really were raped.

Then we punish it very severely when it's provable that the woman did lie. Create a deterrent.

no

women don't get abortions lightly. women have gotten abortions throughout human history. they risk their lives. they risk prison time. they risk leaving their children orphans. a little lie about rape would never deter a women who wants an abortion.

back in the old days when some states had an exception for the life of the mother that included suicide, women would routinely say they would kill themselves if they had to continue their pregnancies.

[Sanctissima]

Abortion's mostly illegal in Poland and Japan, and is on semi-legal in the UK, Iceland, Finland, Taiwan and South Korea. Those countries aren't all that bad.

Impasse.

You don't want abortion to be semi-legal. You oppose it in all situations but rape.

Rape and life endangerment, yes.

[Sanctissima]

Then we punish it very severely when it's provable that the woman did lie. Create a deterrent.

no

women don't get abortions lightly. women have gotten abortions throughout human history. they risk their lives. they risk prison time. they risk leaving their children orphans. a little lie about rape would never deter a women who wants an abortion.

back in the old days when some states had an exception for the life of the mother that included suicide, women would routinely say they would kill themselves if they had to continue their pregnancies.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of women desiring an abortion would go to such lengths.

[Wallenburg]

You don't want abortion to be semi-legal. You oppose it in all situations but rape.

it should be illegal no matter what. it's like going into the town and shooting someone because they walked too close to you.

It isn't anything like that and you know it. It is more like someone walking into town and demanding to have your kidneys, and you saying no. Or you shooting someone because they are raping you."

[Geilinor]

no

women don't get abortions lightly. women have gotten abortions throughout human history. they risk their lives. they risk prison time. they risk leaving their children orphans. a little lie about rape would never deter a women who wants an abortion.

back in the old days when some states had an exception for the life of the mother that included suicide, women would routinely say they would kill themselves if they had to continue their pregnancies.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of women desiring an abortion would go to such lengths.

The majority won't, but it will happen and you won't be able to stop it. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africas-deadly-backroom-abortions/article4353134/