Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Wallenburg]

A pregnancy is a fetus or an embryo. If there is not a fetus or an embryo in there, you're not pregnant.

Jesus fucking Christ...please open a dictionary.

Plus, it's only annoying if you've never been in that situation. Do you really think it's annoying that his mother is happy that she chose life for her child? I thought all of this was about wanting to make sure no child is unwanted, yet when someone says they are happy their mother did not abort them, all of a sudden that's annoying?

I'd think it would be annoying to have my mother talking non-stop about how she didn't abort her pregnancy, yes.

[Godular]

You're perfectly welcome to your opinions. But those don't give you the right to lord it over other people. Seriously, get it through your skull.



I'mma just set fire to that shiny strawman you set out.



Important bit: your logic is terrible. 'Its a natural process' is a lot like saying a woman is 'meant to be pregnant' and should 'just let nature take its course', whether she wants to or not.

A vagina is built to have a penis in it, too. It is a wholly natural phenomenon. This does not mean that if one should happen to just show up there without the vagina-owner's consent that she should 'just let nature take its course'. Even many pro-lifers consider such a thing to be anathema.

I merely pointed out that any definition of what is 'natural' is rather subjective. If it is possible, it is natural. If an abortion is possible, it is natural. The grounds to utilize the argument on whether 'it is natural' is flawed at best and misogynistic at worst. And yes, women can be misogynistic.



I care about equality. Any attempt to deny any person the right to control how their own body is used is a denial of that equality. It is not a denial of the fetus' rights to cut it off from the support provided by the body of the woman within which it resides, if the woman chooses that path.

A person can get a tattoo, drink alcohol, smoke, do drugs, stare at the sun, cut off their own arm, what the fuck ever, so long as they understand that their actions have consequences and to take responsibility for their actions. Getting an abortion IS taking responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy. Just because it is in a manner that you do not like does not make it less so.



I'mma set fire to that other shiny strawman you just trotted out.

Your questions have been answered, your points have been obliterated, your logic has been refuted, your sources have either been discredited or turned back on you. The only one here sloganizing is you, in refusing to adjust your position in light of the fact that your opinion is insufficient basis to deny others their fundamental rights.

Yet you lord your opinions over me like I'm not allowed to have mine.

No I don't. I just point out that your opinions are insufficient basis to deny other people their rights. You're perfectly welcome to find it personally disagreeable, but you need to respect other people's opinions. Not everybody agrees with your opinion, and your opinion should not control their actions.

And these aren't strawman.

Yes they are. You're trying to throw things in another direction by accusing me of doing what you've been doing all along, and making it seem as if you've 'refuted' the concept of 'my body, my choice', which in point of fact you have only expressed indignant rage at and never addressed on any actual level or in any way that we consider convincing.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Just a bee-tee-dub.

These are your opinions, the actions I've seen you take when you argue with me. All of your arguments come back to "my body, my choice", am I right? I don't use slogans. I avoid them.

But you continue to trot-out slogans about "women's rights" and "my body, my choice".

And you consistently fail to refute them while upholding any notion of equality. You see, the critical thing here is that the arguments that you have thrown out have been consistently defeated by the same arguments because you keep trotting out the same damn arguments in the first place. Defund planned parenthood. Abortion is icky. OMG I'MMA DESCRIBE THIS ONE KIND OF ABORTION IN A BLATANT APPEAL TO EMOTION BECAUSE ITS REALLY ICKY AND PRETEND LIKE THE FETUS CAN EXPERIENCE PAIN EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN COMPLETELY DISPROVEN ON THIS POINT BEFORE AND SAYING IT FOR THE TWELFTH TIME MIGHT BE THE ONE TIME IT DOESN'T MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN IGNORAMUS.

OMG YOU'RE CALLING ME ON MY BULLSHIT REPETITIVE ARGUMENTS SO I'M GONNA ACCUSE YOU OF NOT CHANGING YOUR ARGUMENTS TOO.

Small hint, if you actually employed an original argument and didn't repeat yourself so often despite the fact that you have already been defeated on exactly the arguments you continue to press forward, you might see something different in terms of how people respond to you.

But you do not do this thing. You put forward the same insipid arguments over and over again, so you have no cause to make frustrated when the same refutations get jammed into your face as if we have a rubber stamp with the argument on it.

Also, I'm not justifying rape, I would never do that. Rape is evil. I'm simply saying that when a has sex with a man, there is the possibility she can get pregnant. I'm not saying rape is fine, I'm simply describing how a process works. Of course I don't want women to be raped!

Thank you for demonstrating that your reading comprehension is just as bad as Stellonia's.

I was pointing out how your argument was comparable to it, and that if you consider the one situation to be abhorrent, why does the other get a pass?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Lemme bold something for you and why your question about quick Google searches is crap:

She said "mammogram," not "mammogram referral." I'm done discussing this. Is that clear?

If you do not want to be told that you're wrong, then get yourself informed so we don't have to enlighten you. Over and over again.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I would respect pro-lifers more if many of them admitted that the reason they are pro-life, against abortion, is because they see pregnancy as a means to punish ''those sluts. If they can't be responsible in the bedroom, opening their legs, they must be punished with an unwanted pregnancy. Har har harrr!'' Because I see this attitude in so many of them.

I'm not pro-life to sham anyone. That sort of attitude cuts people down. I want to build people up, to fix broken communities, and to make life better for all parties involved.

Then respect the choices people make, with their health care providers, for what they think is best for them.

Why is it that everyone talks about pregnancy as a punishment? Sure, it's not easy and it's complicated, but that doesn't mean it's a punishment. It's a natural part of a natural process. That's not shamming anyone, that's just saying a fact. If I say someone is going to go blind if they look at the sun, I'm not saying the person is dumb. I'm saying that looking at the sun will make you go blind. If I say that eating lots of hamburgers will make one chubby, I'm not saying the person is a porker. I'm saying eating lots of hamburgers will make one chubby.

Because that is a large chunk of the pro-life band's line of thinking. If you stop bandying that line, people will stop pointing out that that is something your side often says. And if you want proof, check the post I was responding to.

[Luminesa]

Yet you lord your opinions over me like I'm not allowed to have mine.

No I don't. I just point out that your opinions are insufficient basis to deny other people their rights. You're perfectly welcome to find it personally disagreeable, but you need to respect other people's opinions. Not everybody agrees with your opinion, and your opinion should not control their actions.

And these aren't strawman.

Yes they are. You're trying to throw things in another direction by accusing me of doing what you've been doing all along, and making it seem as if you've 'refuted' the concept of 'my body, my choice', which in point of fact you have only expressed indignant rage at and never addressed on any actual level or in any way that we consider convincing.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Just a bee-tee-dub.

These are your opinions, the actions I've seen you take when you argue with me. All of your arguments come back to "my body, my choice", am I right? I don't use slogans. I avoid them.

But you continue to trot-out slogans about "women's rights" and "my body, my choice".

And you consistently fail to refute them while upholding any notion of equality. You see, the critical thing here is that the arguments that you have thrown out have been consistently defeated by the same arguments because you keep trotting out the same damn arguments in the first place. Defund planned parenthood. Abortion is icky. OMG I'MMA DESCRIBE THIS ONE KIND OF ABORTION IN A BLATANT APPEAL TO EMOTION BECAUSE ITS REALLY ICKY AND PRETEND LIKE THE FETUS CAN EXPERIENCE PAIN EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN COMPLETELY DISPROVEN ON THIS POINT BEFORE AND SAYING IT FOR THE TWELFTH TIME MIGHT BE THE ONE TIME IT DOESN'T MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN IGNORAMUS.

OMG YOU'RE CALLING ME ON MY BULLSHIT REPETITIVE ARGUMENTS SO I'M GONNA ACCUSE YOU OF NOT CHANGING YOUR ARGUMENTS TOO.

Small hint, if you actually employed an original argument and didn't repeat yourself so often despite the fact that you have already been defeated on exactly the arguments you continue to press forward, you might see something different in terms of how people respond to you.

But you do not do this thing. You put forward the same insipid arguments over and over again, so you have no cause to make frustrated when the same refutations get jammed into your face as if we have a rubber stamp with the argument on it.

Also, I'm not justifying rape, I would never do that. Rape is evil. I'm simply saying that when a has sex with a man, there is the possibility she can get pregnant. I'm not saying rape is fine, I'm simply describing how a process works. Of course I don't want women to be raped!

Thank you for demonstrating that your reading comprehension is just as bad as Stellonia's.

I was pointing out how your argument was comparable to it, and that if you consider the one situation to be abhorrent, why does the other get a pass?

I'm not raging. You're the one yelling at me in all-caps. Don't accuse me of raging if you can't control your own emotions.

I'm not talking about abortion itself anymore, but about your line of arguing. So yeah, now you're strawmanning me by saying that I'm talking about how icky abortion is, when I'm not talking about that anymore.

You seem to argue things you yourself are not capable of doing. I am totally calm. You're simply ranting now because you can't answer my questions.

[Godular]

No I don't. I just point out that your opinions are insufficient basis to deny other people their rights. You're perfectly welcome to find it personally disagreeable, but you need to respect other people's opinions. Not everybody agrees with your opinion, and your opinion should not control their actions.



Yes they are. You're trying to throw things in another direction by accusing me of doing what you've been doing all along, and making it seem as if you've 'refuted' the concept of 'my body, my choice', which in point of fact you have only expressed indignant rage at and never addressed on any actual level or in any way that we consider convincing.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Just a bee-tee-dub.



And you consistently fail to refute them while upholding any notion of equality. You see, the critical thing here is that the arguments that you have thrown out have been consistently defeated by the same arguments because you keep trotting out the same damn arguments in the first place. Defund planned parenthood. Abortion is icky. OMG I'MMA DESCRIBE THIS ONE KIND OF ABORTION IN A BLATANT APPEAL TO EMOTION BECAUSE ITS REALLY ICKY AND PRETEND LIKE THE FETUS CAN EXPERIENCE PAIN EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN COMPLETELY DISPROVEN ON THIS POINT BEFORE AND SAYING IT FOR THE TWELFTH TIME MIGHT BE THE ONE TIME IT DOESN'T MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN IGNORAMUS.

OMG YOU'RE CALLING ME ON MY BULLSHIT REPETITIVE ARGUMENTS SO I'M GONNA ACCUSE YOU OF NOT CHANGING YOUR ARGUMENTS TOO.

Small hint, if you actually employed an original argument and didn't repeat yourself so often despite the fact that you have already been defeated on exactly the arguments you continue to press forward, you might see something different in terms of how people respond to you.

But you do not do this thing. You put forward the same insipid arguments over and over again, so you have no cause to make frustrated when the same refutations get jammed into your face as if we have a rubber stamp with the argument on it.



Thank you for demonstrating that your reading comprehension is just as bad as Stellonia's.

I was pointing out how your argument was comparable to it, and that if you consider the one situation to be abhorrent, why does the other get a pass?

I'm not raging. You're the one yelling at me in all-caps. Don't accuse me of raging if you can't control your own emotions.

Aw, lookit you, thinking that the use of caps means I'm emotionally invested in this argument. Reading comprehension fail once again. Explains a lot really.

I'm not talking about abortion itself anymore, but about your line of arguing. So yeah, now you're strawmanning me by saying that I'm talking about how icky abortion is, when I'm not talking about that anymore.

Incorrect. You're attempting the redirection by yammering inanely about how I keep calling you on using the same disproven arguments again and again, and then yammering inanely about how you keep hearing the same retorts over and over again. Mayhap it would be in your best interests to be more introspective than to continue trotting out the previously mentioned arguments again and again.

It really is the only reason you keep seeing the same refutations again and again.

You seem to argue things you yourself are not capable of doing. I am totally calm. You're simply ranting now because you can't answer my questions.

Your questions have been answered. Your points obliterated. Your logic refuted, sometimes using sources that you put forward yourself. This has been done by me and others, over and over again, throughout this thread and before.

It is not my fault that you fail to recognize reality, but I shall consistently remind you of said failure every time it arises.

You're still Tu quoque'ing btw.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

More than 99% of all abortions occur prior to the nervous system being developed enough to feel pain in any capacity. For the less than 1% that occur after that, theres no researchvto show the fetus feel anything, regardless of whether or not the nervous system is developed.

My mother almost had an abortion with me as well. That was her right, and no one should force any woman to give birth against her will.

I have to ask you then, and this is a serious question. When your mother told you she nearly aborted you, how did you respond?

When I was about 9-10, and I responded with, "I'm sorry your pregnancies were so hard. I would have had an abortion."

[Luminesa]

I have to ask you then, and this is a serious question. When your mother told you she nearly aborted you, how did you respond?

When I was about 9-10, and I responded with, "I'm sorry your pregnancies were so hard. I would have had an abortion."

That's really young...wow...

...Did you thank her for giving you life? Another serious question.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

When I was about 9-10, and I responded with, "I'm sorry your pregnancies were so hard. I would have had an abortion."

That's really young...wow...

...Did you thank her for giving you life? Another serious question.

No. Because had she had an abortion or never conceived me, it wouldn't have affected me. I thank my mom for things that matter- teaching me to read, caring for me when i was sick, making sure i always had food, etc. Thanking her for giving birth is just an emotional appeal you want to get me to say, but lets be honest, she would have been better off with an abortion, and so would I.

[Wallenburg]

When I was about 9-10, and I responded with, "I'm sorry your pregnancies were so hard. I would have had an abortion."

That's really young...wow...

...Did you thank her for giving you life? Another serious question.

I'm not really sure what relevance these questions have...

[Luminesa]

That's really young...wow...

...Did you thank her for giving you life? Another serious question.

No. Because had she had an abortion or never conceived me, it wouldn't have affected me. I thank my mom for things that matter- teaching me to read, caring for me when i was sick, making sure i always had food, etc. Thanking her for giving birth is just an emotional appeal you want to get me to say, but lets be honest, she would have been better off with an abortion, and so would I.

No, it's a serious question. Not any sort of rhetoric. But I mean...that's...legit...kinda depressing. That you think your mom would be better-off without you, and that you think you'd be better off dead. We might argue hard on here, but I would never wish you were dead. And I would never want you to wish you were dead.

[Luminesa]

That's really young...wow...

...Did you thank her for giving you life? Another serious question.

I'm not really sure what relevance these questions have...

She mentioned her mom had nearly aborted her, I was simply asking her about that.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

That's really young...wow...

...Did you thank her for giving you life? Another serious question.

I'm not really sure what relevance these questions have...

She thinks that plays on emotions work on me and that I'll suddenly think "OH MY GOD I LIKE BEING ALIVE. FORCE ALL WOMEN TO REMAIN PREGNANT." but if we're going on that steaming pile of cumdrizzled shit, we beed to forcibly inseminate every woman from puberty until menopause while pumping them full of fertility drugs, bevause, ya know, what if those eggs never get to experience life?!

[Godular]

No. Because had she had an abortion or never conceived me, it wouldn't have affected me. I thank my mom for things that matter- teaching me to read, caring for me when i was sick, making sure i always had food, etc. Thanking her for giving birth is just an emotional appeal you want to get me to say, but lets be honest, she would have been better off with an abortion, and so would I.

No, it's a serious question. Not any sort of rhetoric. But I mean...that's...legit...kinda depressing. That you think your mom would be better-off without you, and that you think you'd be better off dead. We might argue hard on here, but I would never wish you were dead. And I would never want you to wish you were dead.

That's just it though. She wouldn't be dead. She would simply never have existed.

It could also transpire that in getting an abortion when the woman does not wish to have a child, said woman is paving the way towards becoming a parent on her own terms, and with the capacity to provide a better environment than would have been afforded to the get of the undesired pregnancy.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

No. Because had she had an abortion or never conceived me, it wouldn't have affected me. I thank my mom for things that matter- teaching me to read, caring for me when i was sick, making sure i always had food, etc. Thanking her for giving birth is just an emotional appeal you want to get me to say, but lets be honest, she would have been better off with an abortion, and so would I.

No, it's a serious question. Not any sort of rhetoric. But I mean...that's...legit...kinda depressing. That you think your mom would be better-off without you, and that you think you'd be better off dead. We might argue hard on here, but I would never wish you were dead. And I would never want you to wish you were dead.

Being a mother ruined her life. i don't think you get that. My mother was a national tennis champ with a full ride to multiple universities, a high GPA, and she was gorgeous. She threw that away, realized she fucked up, and hit rock bottom over and over again.

Its mot about "wishing I was dead," it's about the fact that a fetus ceasing to exist is the exact same thing from the fetus' point of view as never having been conceived in the first place.

I had a period 12 days ago, should i apologize to the egg? Because it didnt get fertilized. Now its dead 4 ever. Crie so much.

[Wallenburg]

I'm not really sure what relevance these questions have...

She mentioned her mom had nearly aborted her, I was simply asking her about that.

No, you weren't. You asked her about her conversations with her mother about her birth. That has nothing to do with abortion.

[The V O I D]

No, I'm just pointing out that your consent to anything is now irrelevant. Don't want to consent to a DNA test? Doesn't matter; you might be a match to someone who needs life-saving. Don't want to give up the organ? Too bad! Someone has an eye lens infection which is life-threatening? Guess what, eye lens transplants are a thing; you need to sacrifice sight in one or both your eyes so that other person can live.

No, what I'm saying is, yes a person has a right to defend themselves, but you propose that a person has the ability to do that without restrictions. I don't have a problem donating something if someone needs it, but that's not the point. There needs to be a limit on what one can do with their body, and that's not being oppressive. It's avoiding self-destructive behavior.

Yes. A person should have a right to defend themselves without restrictions from threats - whether there is intent or not. It's you who are proposing the right to life is superior to bodily sovereignty; thus, because we can't be picky-choosey now, all bodily sovereignty is less than right to life. And it doesn't matter whether you have a problem donating an organ or not; the minute bodily sovereignty is lesser to the right to life, the government can steal your organs without any form or shape of input from you. You could be kicking and screaming for them not to make you blind, but they're still giving those eye lens' to the person who's going to die without them. You can yell and cry all you would like to, but the government's still taking that kidney. You don't get a choice.

And, no, there really shouldn't be a limit to what a person can do with their bodies. Bodily sovereignty comes first to avoid the mess I have described just-now, and earlier on. If you have bodily sovereignty, you can get tattoos, drink, smoke, do whatever you want concerning your body if it doesn't harm any other person.

That's another thing; without choice/bodily sovereignty, you lose the ability to get a tattoo. The government can decide whether or not you can't because the ink might harm you or be a health risk, which is a threat to your right to life. You also can't drink or smoke, not even a little bit; not even wine or celebratory champagne. Health risk. You also get even more codes of conduct for the road, making it harder to get a license and drive. The government can also regulate what you eat; why? Some foods are health risks. You'd also be required to hire a professional to shave you and do other such things; because doing it yourself could risk cutting you, or if it's near your neck because you're shaving facial hair, you could slit your own throat by accident. Health. Risk.

And it goes on, and on, and on. You no longer get any form of choice at anything concerning your body; just a list of regulations of what you can't/can do. And, surprise, there's a lot more can'ts than cans. All in the name of preserving your right to life.

[Vorond]

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder.

OK, I'll have to split this up:

Yes it does. Self-defense is a thing.

Even if I were to actually argue that the fetus actively harms its creator, it hardly users dealy force, so a lethal response seems disproportionate.

All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder.

Indeed, since murder requires malice aforethought, which is given here: "I regret not using a contraceptive, so I'm gonna get rid of it"

If the woman does not wish it to be there, it has no right to remain there against the woman's will.

This seems to be the general theme here: everything going against a womens will is wrong, and if biology does so it must be utterly reprehensible. Newsflash: actions have consequences.

[Alvecia]

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder.

OK, I'll have to split this up:

Yes it does. Self-defense is a thing.

Even if I were to actually argue that the fetus actively harms its creator, it hardly users dealy force, so a lethal response seems disproportionate.

All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder.

Indeed, since murder requires malice aforethought, which is given here: "I regret not using a contraceptive, so I'm gonna get rid of it"

If the woman does not wish it to be there, it has no right to remain there against the woman's will.

This seems to be the general theme here: everything going against a womens will is wrong, and if biology does so it must be utterly reprehensible. Newsflash: actions have consequences.

Abortions are how you can deal with those consequences.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder.

OK, I'll have to split this up:

Yes it does. Self-defense is a thing.

Even if I were to actually argue that the fetus actively harms its creator, it hardly users dealy force, so a lethal response seems disproportionate.

All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder.

Indeed, since murder requires malice aforethought, which is given here: "I regret not using a contraceptive, so I'm gonna get rid of it"

If the woman does not wish it to be there, it has no right to remain there against the woman's will.

This seems to be the general theme here: everything going against a womens will is wrong, and if biology does so it must be utterly reprehensible. Newsflash: actions have consequences.

I'm going to break this down real easy for you.
No one has a right to use another person's body against their will.
If someone is using someone's body against their will, the person whose rights are being violated has the right to reclaim bodily autonomy using self defense.
No fetus has the right to use a woman's body against their will.
A woman has the right to reclaim her bodily autonomy by defending herself.

[Vorond]

I'm going to break this down real easy for you.
No one has a right to use another person's body against their will.
If someone is using someone's body against their will, the person whose rights are being violated has the right to reclaim bodily autonomy using self defense.
No fetus has the right to use a woman's body against their will.
A woman has the right to reclaim her bodily autonomy by defending herself.

If I sign up for combat duty I accept getting shot at, ikf I have unprotected sex I accept potential pregnancy.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I'm going to break this down real easy for you.
No one has a right to use another person's body against their will.
If someone is using someone's body against their will, the person whose rights are being violated has the right to reclaim bodily autonomy using self defense.
No fetus has the right to use a woman's body against their will.
A woman has the right to reclaim her bodily autonomy by defending herself.

If I sign up for combat duty I accept getting shot at, ikf I have unprotected sex I accept potential pregnancy.

You accept the risk of being shot. If you get shot you have a right to medical treatment rather than bleeding out.
If i have sex, i accept that i might get pregnant. If i get pregnant, i can seek medical treatment to stop being pregnant. Not a hard concept.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I'm going to break this down real easy for you.
No one has a right to use another person's body against their will.
If someone is using someone's body against their will, the person whose rights are being violated has the right to reclaim bodily autonomy using self defense.
No fetus has the right to use a woman's body against their will.
A woman has the right to reclaim her bodily autonomy by defending herself.

If I sign up for combat duty I accept getting shot at, ikf I have unprotected sex I accept potential pregnancy.

If I sign up for combat duty I accept getting shot at, ikf I have unprotected sex I accept getting shot at.

That's not how it works, btw. Infantry are crazy, women are not.

Don't correct me, SAT.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

If I sign up for combat duty I accept getting shot at, ikf I have unprotected sex I accept potential pregnancy.

If I sign up for combat duty I accept getting shot at, ikf I have unprotected sex I accept getting shot at.

That's not how it works, btw. Infantry are crazy, women are not.

Don't correct me, SAT.

I wouldn't dream of it lmao

[Godular]

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder.

OK, I'll have to split this up:

Yes it does. Self-defense is a thing.

Even if I were to actually argue that the fetus actively harms its creator, it hardly users dealy force, so a lethal response seems disproportionate.

'Disproportionate' does not come into play at all in self defense. One stops the harm being done. If that results in the death of the harmful entity, oh well.

All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder.

Indeed, since murder requires malice aforethought, which is given here: "I regret not using a contraceptive, so I'm gonna get rid of it"

You don't get to judge the woman's reasons. The only one that really matters in any event is 'I don't want to be pregnant'.

If the woman does not wish it to be there, it has no right to remain there against the woman's will.

This seems to be the general theme here: everything going against a womens will is wrong, and if biology does so it must be utterly reprehensible.

So if she punches herself in the gut until she miscarries she's legit?

Just because it is 'natural' does not make it acceptable if the woman does not consent to it. Sex is natural too, but if THAT happens without the woman's consent damn near everybody agrees it is a terrible thing.

Newsflash: actions have consequences.

Pregnancy as punishment. AGAIN.

Stop. That. Stupid. Shit.