Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Godular]

Good job at being a dictator then.

Outlawing murder equals dictatorship, mmhmm.

Abortion is not murder. Telling people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies is a dictatorship tho.

[Ohioan Territory]

Pro-choice, the world is overpopulated anyway.

[Vorond]

Outlawing murder equals dictatorship, mmhmm.

Except it's not murder. And dictating what people can or cannot do with their own bodies is, in fact, undemocratic.

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder. Given that abortion is murder, it should be made illegal.

[Godular]

Except it's not murder. And dictating what people can or cannot do with their own bodies is, in fact, undemocratic.

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder.

Yes it does. Self-defense is a thing. All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder. If the woman does not wish it to be there, it has no right to remain there against the woman's will.

Given that abortion is murder

Not given. You have been told this.

it should be made illegal.

It is not murder. It is not illegal.

Nor should it be.

[Shazbotdom]

Good job at being a dictator then.

Outlawing murder equals dictatorship, mmhmm.

Seeing as Abortion does not meet the legal definition of Murder, it is not murder. Good job at a failed logical fallacy.

[Alvecia]

Except it's not murder. And dictating what people can or cannot do with their own bodies is, in fact, undemocratic.

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder. Given that abortion is murder, it should be made illegal.

What do you think the definition of murder is?

[The V O I D]

Except it's not murder. And dictating what people can or cannot do with their own bodies is, in fact, undemocratic.

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder. Given that abortion is murder, it should be made illegal.

It is not murder. Seriously, stop being so willfully ignorant to the facts. Abortion does not meet the legal qualifications for murder, not even manslaughter. An embryo/fetus are therefor allowed to be removed. Not only that, but the minute a woman doesn't want the fetus/embryo there, it is assaulting her, whether it intends to or not; therefor, she has a right to defend herself by removing the parasite.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder) and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)

[Wallenburg]

Except it's not murder. And dictating what people can or cannot do with their own bodies is, in fact, undemocratic.

Yes, a zygote/embryo/fetus resides within a woman’s body, but that does not make terminating it any less murder. Given that abortion is murder, it should be made illegal.

For God's sake, look up "murder" and stop talking shit. We've eviscerated this soundbite a hundred times over and a hundred times again. Murder is illegal. Abortion is not illegal. Therefore, abortion is not murder.

[Leerka]

Abortion isn't murder... IN THE US.

[Godular]

Abortion isn't murder... IN THE US.

And in a great number of other nations as well. The ones where it does count as such... not exactly bastions of enlightened thought.

[Luminesa]

I'm not pro-life to sham anyone. That sort of attitude cuts people down. I want to build people up, to fix broken communities, and to make life better for all parties involved.

Then mind your own durn business and let women make their own decisions. Sure you can help to reduce the likelihood that a woman will choose abortion as the necessary option, but it will never 100% go away.

Why is it that everyone talks about pregnancy as a punishment?

You tell me. It's the pro-lifers that keep doing it. We just keep calling 'em on it.

Sure, it's not easy and it's complicated, but that doesn't mean it's a punishment.

It is if its forced on them because they should have done X or Y or nothing at all or whateverthefuck arbitrarily judgemental actions might be put forward as a reason to deny a woman the right to control her own body.

It's a natural part of a natural process.

And as Abortion is possible in this great big natural universe of ours, so is Abortion. Also, so the hell what?

That's not shamming anyone, that's just saying a fact. If I say someone is going to go blind if they look at the sun, I'm not saying the person is dumb. I'm saying that looking at the sun will make you go blind.

And? Its their body. Sure it might be frickin' stupid in our view, but what are we gonna do to stop 'em? Lock 'em in a cave?

If I say that eating lots of hamburgers will make one chubby, I'm not saying the person is a porker. I'm saying eating lots of hamburgers will make one chubby.

Liposuction. Oh, sorry, were you trying to put forward a situation that can't be fixed medically?

I'm making a decision to give my opinion, and I'm a woman. But you don't want me to make the decision to have that opinion, because it's not your opinion. So what is it? Am I allowed to have opinions, or am I only allowed to have opinions as long as they fit whatever opinions you say I should be able to make? Then you tell me not to judge, but you judge me and say I'm an oppressor. So am I at fault for trying to discuss something, or do you just need to practice what you preach?

Then I say something is a natural process, and I try to use logic to explain what I mean by natural processes, but you don't seem to care about those, since you continually say "so what" to all of them. So tell me: is it true that you only seem to care about protecting your slogan about "my body my choice"? Because that seems like the only thing you know how to fall back on, when all else fails. I might be repeating myself, now, but only because you refuse to answer the question and to try to do something besides mock me and fall back on a slogan.

[The V O I D]

Then mind your own durn business and let women make their own decisions. Sure you can help to reduce the likelihood that a woman will choose abortion as the necessary option, but it will never 100% go away.



You tell me. It's the pro-lifers that keep doing it. We just keep calling 'em on it.



It is if its forced on them because they should have done X or Y or nothing at all or whateverthefuck arbitrarily judgemental actions might be put forward as a reason to deny a woman the right to control her own body.



And as Abortion is possible in this great big natural universe of ours, so is Abortion. Also, so the hell what?



And? Its their body. Sure it might be frickin' stupid in our view, but what are we gonna do to stop 'em? Lock 'em in a cave?



Liposuction. Oh, sorry, were you trying to put forward a situation that can't be fixed medically?

I'm making a decision to give my opinion, and I'm a woman. But you don't want me to make the decision to have that opinion, because it's not your opinion. So what is it? Am I allowed to have opinions, or am I only allowed to have opinions as long as they fit whatever opinions you say I should be able to make? Then you tell me not to judge, but you judge me and say I'm an oppressor. So am I at fault for trying to discuss something, or do you just need to practice what you preach?

Then I say something is a natural process, and I try to use logic to explain what I mean by natural processes, but you don't seem to care about those, since you continually say "so what" to all of them. So tell me: is it true that you only seem to care about protecting your slogan about "my body my choice"? Because that seems like the only thing you know how to fall back on, when all else fails. I might be repeating myself, now, but only because you refuse to answer the question and to try to do something besides mock me and fall back on a slogan.

Can I borrow your kidney? I need one. Oh, wait, don't answer that; under your beliefs, I can take it without consent if you're a match.

[Stellonia]

I'm making a decision to give my opinion, and I'm a woman. But you don't want me to make the decision to have that opinion, because it's not your opinion. So what is it? Am I allowed to have opinions, or am I only allowed to have opinions as long as they fit whatever opinions you say I should be able to make? Then you tell me not to judge, but you judge me and say I'm an oppressor. So am I at fault for trying to discuss something, or do you just need to practice what you preach?

Then I say something is a natural process, and I try to use logic to explain what I mean by natural processes, but you don't seem to care about those, since you continually say "so what" to all of them. So tell me: is it true that you only seem to care about protecting your slogan about "my body my choice"? Because that seems like the only thing you know how to fall back on, when all else fails. I might be repeating myself, now, but only because you refuse to answer the question and to try to do something besides mock me and fall back on a slogan.

Can I borrow your kidney? I need one. Oh, wait, don't answer that; under your beliefs, I can take it without consent if you're a match.

There is a difference between borrowing an organ for several months and taking it for life.

[Luminesa]

I'm Pro-Life, for a few reasons.

Morality is one of them, I believe Abortions are inhumane.

No, they are actually very humane. Some even save lives.

Most abortions occur during the stage of development in which the nerve cells and pain receptors have already developed, meaning they feel the pain. Contrary to popular belief, The Fetus usually comes out in multiple pieces for at that stage that abortions usually occur, they are too large to be safely removed from the would-be-mother in one piece.

That simply isn't true.

I am also against it because I was almost aborted when my mother was pregnant with me.

No you weren't. Pregnancies, not fetuses or children, are aborted.

My mother never misses a chance to tell me that she was happy that she didn't abort me, and my grandmother doesn't miss a chance to apologize for suggesting that my mother should have aborted me.

That must be exceedingly annoying. You guys don't have anything else to talk about?

Who knows what that fetus could grow up to be and what they would do. They could do great things, and the idea of stomping out such potential before it can get a chance to blossom sickens me.

Every fetus also has the potential to grow into a terrible person, even the next Hitler or Stalin.

I understand that some situations it is still morally just to have an abortion, a few examples are when the would-be-mother's life is in danger, or if they were a victim of rape.

Why do you consider these good but others wrong?

I also have no problem with early development abortions where the fetus can not be seen as "sentient" nor "sapient" yet because they have not developed nerves cells yet.

That covers most abortions.

but that is all just my opinion.

I'd like to clarify something: do you want to outlaw certain kinds of abortions, or is your opposition to them a matter of personal choice and suggestion to others?

A pregnancy is a fetus or an embryo. If there is not a fetus or an embryo in there, you're not pregnant.

Plus, it's only annoying if you've never been in that situation. Do you really think it's annoying that his mother is happy that she chose life for her child? I thought all of this was about wanting to make sure no child is unwanted, yet when someone says they are happy their mother did not abort them, all of a sudden that's annoying?

[The V O I D]

Can I borrow your kidney? I need one. Oh, wait, don't answer that; under your beliefs, I can take it without consent if you're a match.

There is a difference between borrowing an organ for several months and taking it for life.

If bodily sovereignty is made less than the right to life, then it is made lesser in all aspects. That means the difference is irrelevant, and thus if I need your kidney and you don't, I can take it, if you match me.

[Luminesa]

I'm Pro-Life, for a few reasons.

Morality is one of them, I believe Abortions are inhumane. Most abortions occur during the stage of development in which the nerve cells and pain receptors have already developed, meaning they feel the pain. Contrary to popular belief, The Fetus usually comes out in multiple pieces for at that stage that abortions usually occur, they are too large to be safely removed from the would-be-mother in one piece.

I am also against it because I was almost aborted when my mother was pregnant with me. My mother never misses a chance to tell me that she was happy that she didn't abort me, and my grandmother doesn't miss a chance to apologize for suggesting that my mother should have aborted me. Who knows what that fetus could grow up to be and what they would do. They could do great things, and the idea of stomping out such potential before it can get a chance to blossom sickens me.

I understand that some situations it is still morally just to have an abortion, a few examples are when the would-be-mother's life is in danger, or if they were a victim of rape. I also have no problem with early development abortions where the fetus can not be seen as "sentient" nor "sapient" yet because they have not developed nerves cells yet.

but that is all just my opinion.

More than 99% of all abortions occur prior to the nervous system being developed enough to feel pain in any capacity. For the less than 1% that occur after that, theres no researchvto show the fetus feel anything, regardless of whether or not the nervous system is developed.

My mother almost had an abortion with me as well. That was her right, and no one should force any woman to give birth against her will.

I have to ask you then, and this is a serious question. When your mother told you she nearly aborted you, how did you respond?

[Luminesa]

There is a difference between borrowing an organ for several months and taking it for life.

If bodily sovereignty is made less than the right to life, then it is made lesser in all aspects. That means the difference is irrelevant, and thus if I need your kidney and you don't, I can take it, if you match me.

Wait, so would you rather I don't give you a kidney? Because you obviously don't want the right to life to be held higher than bodily sovereignty. So now I'm confused.

[Godular]

Then mind your own durn business and let women make their own decisions. Sure you can help to reduce the likelihood that a woman will choose abortion as the necessary option, but it will never 100% go away.



You tell me. It's the pro-lifers that keep doing it. We just keep calling 'em on it.



It is if its forced on them because they should have done X or Y or nothing at all or whateverthefuck arbitrarily judgemental actions might be put forward as a reason to deny a woman the right to control her own body.



And as Abortion is possible in this great big natural universe of ours, so is Abortion. Also, so the hell what?



And? Its their body. Sure it might be frickin' stupid in our view, but what are we gonna do to stop 'em? Lock 'em in a cave?



Liposuction. Oh, sorry, were you trying to put forward a situation that can't be fixed medically?

I'm making a decision to give my opinion, and I'm a woman. But you don't want me to make the decision to have that opinion, because it's not your opinion. So what is it? Am I allowed to have opinions, or am I only allowed to have opinions as long as they fit whatever opinions you say I should be able to make?

You're perfectly welcome to your opinions. But those don't give you the right to lord it over other people. Seriously, get it through your skull.

Then you tell me not to judge, but you judge me and say I'm an oppressor. So am I at fault for trying to discuss something, or do you just need to practice what you preach?

I'mma just set fire to that shiny strawman you set out.

Then I say something is a natural process, and I try to use logic to explain what I mean by natural processes, but you don't seem to care about those, since you continually say "so what" to all of them.

Important bit: your logic is terrible. 'Its a natural process' is a lot like saying a woman is 'meant to be pregnant' and should 'just let nature take its course', whether she wants to or not.

A vagina is built to have a penis in it, too. It is a wholly natural phenomenon. This does not mean that if one should happen to just show up there without the vagina-owner's consent that she should 'just let nature take its course'. Even many pro-lifers consider such a thing to be anathema.

I merely pointed out that any definition of what is 'natural' is rather subjective. If it is possible, it is natural. If an abortion is possible, it is natural. The grounds to utilize the argument on whether 'it is natural' is flawed at best and misogynistic at worst. And yes, women can be misogynistic.

So tell me: is it true that you only seem to care about protecting your slogan about "my body my choice"?

I care about equality. Any attempt to deny any person the right to control how their own body is used is a denial of that equality. It is not a denial of the fetus' rights to cut it off from the support provided by the body of the woman within which it resides, if the woman chooses that path.

A person can get a tattoo, drink alcohol, smoke, do drugs, stare at the sun, cut off their own arm, what the fuck ever, so long as they understand that their actions have consequences and to take responsibility for their actions. Getting an abortion IS taking responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy. Just because it is in a manner that you do not like does not make it less so.

Because that seems like the only thing you know how to fall back on, when all else fails. I might be repeating myself, now, but only because you refuse to answer the question and to try to do something besides mock me and fall back on a slogan.

I'mma set fire to that other shiny strawman you just trotted out.

Your questions have been answered, your points have been obliterated, your logic has been refuted, your sources have either been discredited or turned back on you. The only one here sloganizing is you, in refusing to adjust your position in light of the fact that your opinion is insufficient basis to deny others their fundamental rights.

[The V O I D]

If bodily sovereignty is made less than the right to life, then it is made lesser in all aspects. That means the difference is irrelevant, and thus if I need your kidney and you don't, I can take it, if you match me.

Wait, so would you rather I don't give you a kidney? Because you obviously don't want the right to life to be held higher than bodily sovereignty. So now I'm confused.

No, I'm just pointing out that your consent to anything is now irrelevant. Don't want to consent to a DNA test? Doesn't matter; you might be a match to someone who needs life-saving. Don't want to give up the organ? Too bad! Someone has an eye lens infection which is life-threatening? Guess what, eye lens transplants are a thing; you need to sacrifice sight in one or both your eyes so that other person can live.

[Godular]

If bodily sovereignty is made less than the right to life, then it is made lesser in all aspects. That means the difference is irrelevant, and thus if I need your kidney and you don't, I can take it, if you match me.

Wait, so would you rather I don't give you a kidney? Because you obviously don't want the right to life to be held higher than bodily sovereignty. So now I'm confused.

Hey, if you don't want to give it up and I needed it to live, I'd be sad but oh well.

Your body, your choice.

[Luminesa]

I'm making a decision to give my opinion, and I'm a woman. But you don't want me to make the decision to have that opinion, because it's not your opinion. So what is it? Am I allowed to have opinions, or am I only allowed to have opinions as long as they fit whatever opinions you say I should be able to make?

You're perfectly welcome to your opinions. But those don't give you the right to lord it over other people. Seriously, get it through your skull.

Then you tell me not to judge, but you judge me and say I'm an oppressor. So am I at fault for trying to discuss something, or do you just need to practice what you preach?

I'mma just set fire to that shiny strawman you set out.

Then I say something is a natural process, and I try to use logic to explain what I mean by natural processes, but you don't seem to care about those, since you continually say "so what" to all of them.

Important bit: your logic is terrible. 'Its a natural process' is a lot like saying a woman is 'meant to be pregnant' and should 'just let nature take its course', whether she wants to or not.

A vagina is built to have a penis in it, too. It is a wholly natural phenomenon. This does not mean that if one should happen to just show up there without the vagina-owner's consent that she should 'just let nature take its course'. Even many pro-lifers consider such a thing to be anathema.

I merely pointed out that any definition of what is 'natural' is rather subjective. If it is possible, it is natural. If an abortion is possible, it is natural. The grounds to utilize the argument on whether 'it is natural' is flawed at best and misogynistic at worst. And yes, women can be misogynistic.

So tell me: is it true that you only seem to care about protecting your slogan about "my body my choice"?

I care about equality. Any attempt to deny any person the right to control how their own body is used is a denial of that equality. It is not a denial of the fetus' rights to cut it off from the support provided by the body of the woman within which it resides, if the woman chooses that path.

A person can get a tattoo, drink alcohol, smoke, do drugs, stare at the sun, cut off their own arm, what the fuck ever, so long as they understand that their actions have consequences and to take responsibility for their actions. Getting an abortion IS taking responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy. Just because it is in a manner that you do not like does not make it less so.

Because that seems like the only thing you know how to fall back on, when all else fails. I might be repeating myself, now, but only because you refuse to answer the question and to try to do something besides mock me and fall back on a slogan.

I'mma set fire to that other shiny strawman you just trotted out.

Your questions have been answered, your points have been obliterated, your logic has been refuted, your sources have either been discredited or turned back on you. The only one here sloganizing is you, in refusing to adjust your position in light of the fact that your opinion is insufficient basis to deny others their fundamental rights.

Yet you lord your opinions over me like I'm not allowed to have mine. And these aren't strawman. These are your opinions, the actions I've seen you take when you argue with me. All of your arguments come back to "my body, my choice", am I right? I don't use slogans. I avoid them. But you continue to trot-out slogans about "women's rights" and "my body, my choice".

Also, I'm not justifying rape, I would never do that. Rape is evil. I'm simply saying that when a has sex with a man, there is the possibility she can get pregnant. I'm not saying rape is fine, I'm simply describing how a process works. Of course I don't want women to be raped!

[Luminesa]

Wait, so would you rather I don't give you a kidney? Because you obviously don't want the right to life to be held higher than bodily sovereignty. So now I'm confused.

No, I'm just pointing out that your consent to anything is now irrelevant. Don't want to consent to a DNA test? Doesn't matter; you might be a match to someone who needs life-saving. Don't want to give up the organ? Too bad! Someone has an eye lens infection which is life-threatening? Guess what, eye lens transplants are a thing; you need to sacrifice sight in one or both your eyes so that other person can live.

No, what I'm saying is, yes a person has a right to defend themselves, but you propose that a person has the ability to do that without restrictions. I don't have a problem donating something if someone needs it, but that's not the point. There needs to be a limit on what one can do with their body, and that's not being oppressive. It's avoiding self-destructive behavior.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Can I borrow your kidney? I need one. Oh, wait, don't answer that; under your beliefs, I can take it without consent if you're a match.

There is a difference between borrowing an organ for several months and taking it for life.

Couple months? Taking an organ is perament.

[Rock Lobsters]

I just wanted to put this out there.
"In 2009, most (64.0%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.7% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Few abortions (7.0%) were performed at 14–20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation. From 2000 to 2009, the percentage of all abortions performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation increased 12%, whereas the percentage performed at >13 weeks' decreased 12%. Moreover, among abortions performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation, the distribution shifted toward earlier gestational ages, with the percentage of these abortions performed at ≤6 weeks' gestation increasing 47%. "

From the CDC. 2009 was awhile ago but I assume the data is still good. Sorry if this has already been posted or not, I just got back into Nationstates like... right now and have no idea what's going on. use it how you like.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm