Abortion: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

[Sanctissima]

A sperm and egg are basically a "human construction kit" as well.

Not quite.

The sperm and egg are tools. The embryo is, so to speak, whole. After fertilization, everything is there, as one.

[Zoice]

When I said human being, what I meant is human person, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

To Sanctissima, the potential to become an adult and everything that means is irrelevant, because a sperm and egg has that potential as well.

You're still missing the point.

Once it's fertilized, the whole paradigm changes. Whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, the fact is irrevocable that after fertilization, a human being has been created. It may be extremely undeveloped, but it is a member of our species.

Sure, the argument of potential is still there. Will it or will it not become a person. That being said, this isn't the same situation as an individual sperm or egg. They're just clumps of tissue and bits of DNA. It's when they join together that, well... the situation just changes. Significantly.

I don't see an embryo or fetus as a person. For that, it needs sentience (which admittedly happens slightly before birth). I do, however, see it as a member of our species. And I think its life is one that is worthy of preservation.

Once it is fertilized, yes, it's a new individual, neither the father or the mother but a new human being, a new member of the species. Why is that enough for you?

We're getting close to growing human hearts in the laboratory. If we grew one with its own unique DNA, it is a new member of species. A new human being, and I would say that it's irrelevant because it isn't sapient. What would you say?

A sperm and egg are basically a "human construction kit" as well.

Not quite.

The sperm and egg are tools. The embryo is, so to speak, whole. After fertilization, everything is there, as one.

The distinction you're making between a tool and a construction kit isn't a real distinction. It isn't relevant to the discussion, because personhood is what is important.

[Jimmy Carter]

Pro-Peanut.

[Equestria Our Town]

Pro-Pane

[Wallenburg]

Pro-Peanut.

Every legume is sacred. We must ban abortions of peanut plants.

[Nariterrr]

Pro-Pinapple

[Equestria Our Town]

this thread just got more fascinating

[Wallenburg]

Pro-sperity

[Equestria Our Town]

Pro-sperity

I'm done with this thread

[Jimmy Carter]

this thread just got more fascinating

That's what I do.

[Neutraligon]

A sperm and egg are basically a "human construction kit" as well.

Not quite.

The sperm and egg are tools. The embryo is, so to speak, whole. After fertilization, everything is there, as one.

Incorrect, as it still takes 9 months of living inside the womb of the mother gaining nutrients. There is still a lot missing at the point of conception.

[Ximea]

Not quite.

The sperm and egg are tools. The embryo is, so to speak, whole. After fertilization, everything is there, as one.

Incorrect, as it still takes 9 months of living inside the womb of the mother gaining nutrients. There is still a lot missing at the point of conception.

Gaining nutrients and being exposed to a bath of hormones provided by the mother's body.

[Neutraligon]

Incorrect, as it still takes 9 months of living inside the womb of the mother gaining nutrients. There is still a lot missing at the point of conception.

Gaining nutrients and being exposed to a bath of hormones provided by the mother's body.

Indeed, to me a sperm or egg is no less complete than a fertilized egg.

[Ashmoria]

A sperm and egg are basically a "human construction kit" as well.

Not quite.

The sperm and egg are tools. The embryo is, so to speak, whole. After fertilization, everything is there, as one.

after fertilization nothing is there. the embryo/fetus/baby is made one bit at a time.

[Bleumont (Ancient)]

As a Christian, I am pro-life.

[Shazbotdom]

As a Christian, I am pro-life.

So what is your take on Bodily Sovereignty, then?

[Talvezout]

Thought that I wanted to add my 0.02$ here.

I'm gonna add a disclaimer here and say that yes, I'm Pro-Life. However, I do recognize that the issue here isn't some black and white thing; it's pretty complex and unsurprisingly, is gray rather than being black and white. What my side need to recognize is that nobody wants an abortion. It's nasty, not to mention extremely unpleasant as well as potentially being guilt-inducing. And what Pro-Choice people need to realize is that not all pro-lifers are secretly scheming to control women or sex; no, it's because they may honestly believe that the fetus is a human or potential life, just like how pro-choicers honestly believe that they're helping a women by allowing her to have an abortion. Either way, both sides need to stop demonizing each other. Anyways, back to my main point. While I do believe that abortion is wrong, I do believe that banning it is like banning homeless people from sleeping on the streets; all it does is cover up the problem, not actually reduce it. Now, why do most women get an abortion? Sometimes it's because they don't want to carry a baby to term, sometimes it's because they just don't like pregnancy; however, most abortions are done for women who are in situations like poverty or economic trouble. They don't get an abortion because they hate babies, it's because they're scared, they know that they can't care for the baby in their situation, and they believe they are doing what's right. Banning abortion won't prevent this; instead it'll drive these women to get illegal abortions. So instead of simply banning abortion, I personally believe that both sides need to work together to recognize and to prevent the root cause of getting an abortion: poverty or economic hardships. And we can help prevent or overcome these hardships by spreading information and help; more social programs for poor pregnant women and mothers, before and after pregnancy, better sex education, and actually caring and actively trying to help the baby and mother after the baby is born - something that pro-lifers have a tendency to forget. And by implementing these measures, we can hopefully reduce the rate of abortions, so that now a soon-to-be mother's choice isn't carry the child to term and risk financial consequences or abortion, it's carry a child to term with proper help, support, and knowledge.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Edit: Also, for my fellow Christians, we need to stop ostracizing mothers who've had abortions and sincerely repent.

[Bleumont (Ancient)]

I completely agree with Talvezout. We shouldn't demonize women who have abortions. There are various reasons why a woman may get an abortion, most of which a woman has no control over. I think if we work on the reasons why most women get abortions, such as poverty and lack of childcare, the number of abortions would be drastically decreased.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Thought that I wanted to add my 0.02$ here.

I'm gonna add a disclaimer here and say that yes, I'm Pro-Life. However, I do recognize that the issue here isn't some black and white thing; it's pretty complex and unsurprisingly, is gray rather than being black and white. What my side need to recognize is that nobody wants an abortion. It's nasty, not to mention extremely unpleasant as well as potentially being guilt-inducing. And what Pro-Choice people need to realize is that not all pro-lifers are secretly scheming to control women or sex; no, it's because they may honestly believe that the fetus is a human or potential life, just like how pro-choicers honestly believe that they're helping a women by allowing her to have an abortion. Either way, both sides need to stop demonizing each other. Anyways, back to my main point. While I do believe that abortion is wrong, I do believe that banning it is like banning homeless people from sleeping on the streets; all it does is cover up the problem, not actually reduce it. Now, why do most women get an abortion? Sometimes it's because they don't want to carry a baby to term, sometimes it's because they just don't like pregnancy; however, most abortions are done for women who are in situations like poverty or economic trouble. They don't get an abortion because they hate babies, it's because they're scared, they know that they can't care for the baby in their situation, and they believe they are doing what's right. Banning abortion won't prevent this; instead it'll drive these women to get illegal abortions. So instead of simply banning abortion, I personally believe that both sides need to work together to recognize and to prevent the root cause of getting an abortion: poverty or economic hardships. And we can help prevent or overcome these hardships by spreading information and help; more social programs for poor pregnant women and mothers, before and after pregnancy, better sex education, and actually caring and actively trying to help the baby and mother after the baby is born - something that pro-lifers have a tendency to forget. And by implementing these measures, we can hopefully reduce the rate of abortions, so that now a soon-to-be mother's choice isn't carry the child to term and risk financial consequences or abortion, it's carry a child to term with proper help, support, and knowledge.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Edit: Also, for my fellow Christians, we need to stop ostracizing mothers who've had abortions and sincerely repent.

I completely agree with Talvezout. We shouldn't demonize women who have abortions. There are various reasons why a woman may get an abortion, most of which a woman has no control over. I think if we work on the reasons why most women get abortions, such as poverty and lack of childcare, the number of abortions would be drastically decreased.

This is what I've kept saying in more advanced discussions of abortion. Thank you guys for acknowledging the big fucking elephant in the room.

[Talvezout]

This is what I've kept saying in more advanced discussions of abortion. Thank you guys for acknowledging the big fucking elephant in the room.

No problem

In all honesty, I think the abortion issue would become a minor one if both sides agreed and cooperated in trying to deal with the root causes, not the symptoms. I mean, it might just be me being optimistic, but who knows really.

[Korhal IVV]

Thought that I wanted to add my 0.02$ here.

I'm gonna add a disclaimer here and say that yes, I'm Pro-Life. However, I do recognize that the issue here isn't some black and white thing; it's pretty complex and unsurprisingly, is gray rather than being black and white. What my side need to recognize is that nobody wants an abortion. It's nasty, not to mention extremely unpleasant as well as potentially being guilt-inducing. And what Pro-Choice people need to realize is that not all pro-lifers are secretly scheming to control women or sex; no, it's because they may honestly believe that the fetus is a human or potential life, just like how pro-choicers honestly believe that they're helping a women by allowing her to have an abortion. Either way, both sides need to stop demonizing each other. Anyways, back to my main point. While I do believe that abortion is wrong, I do believe that banning it is like banning homeless people from sleeping on the streets; all it does is cover up the problem, not actually reduce it. Now, why do most women get an abortion? Sometimes it's because they don't want to carry a baby to term, sometimes it's because they just don't like pregnancy; however, most abortions are done for women who are in situations like poverty or economic trouble. They don't get an abortion because they hate babies, it's because they're scared, they know that they can't care for the baby in their situation, and they believe they are doing what's right. Banning abortion won't prevent this; instead it'll drive these women to get illegal abortions. So instead of simply banning abortion, I personally believe that both sides need to work together to recognize and to prevent the root cause of getting an abortion: poverty or economic hardships. And we can help prevent or overcome these hardships by spreading information and help; more social programs for poor pregnant women and mothers, before and after pregnancy, better sex education, and actually caring and actively trying to help the baby and mother after the baby is born - something that pro-lifers have a tendency to forget. And by implementing these measures, we can hopefully reduce the rate of abortions, so that now a soon-to-be mother's choice isn't carry the child to term and risk financial consequences or abortion, it's carry a child to term with proper help, support, and knowledge.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Edit: Also, for my fellow Christians, we need to stop ostracizing mothers who've had abortions and sincerely repent.

"Mein Führur, do you agree with Talvezout?"

"Yes Jodl."

"But Mein Führur I object to your decision to legalize abortion!"

"Dammit Jodl! I said I agree with Talvezout!"

"Abortion is murder!"

"Shut your bald head up."

(I agree with Talvezout)

[Ardavia]

Thought that I wanted to add my 0.02$ here.

I'm gonna add a disclaimer here and say that yes, I'm Pro-Life. However, I do recognize that the issue here isn't some black and white thing; it's pretty complex and unsurprisingly, is gray rather than being black and white. What my side need to recognize is that nobody wants an abortion. It's nasty, not to mention extremely unpleasant as well as potentially being guilt-inducing. And what Pro-Choice people need to realize is that not all pro-lifers are secretly scheming to control women or sex; no, it's because they may honestly believe that the fetus is a human or potential life, just like how pro-choicers honestly believe that they're helping a women by allowing her to have an abortion. Either way, both sides need to stop demonizing each other. Anyways, back to my main point. While I do believe that abortion is wrong, I do believe that banning it is like banning homeless people from sleeping on the streets; all it does is cover up the problem, not actually reduce it. Now, why do most women get an abortion? Sometimes it's because they don't want to carry a baby to term, sometimes it's because they just don't like pregnancy; however, most abortions are done for women who are in situations like poverty or economic trouble. They don't get an abortion because they hate babies, it's because they're scared, they know that they can't care for the baby in their situation, and they believe they are doing what's right. Banning abortion won't prevent this; instead it'll drive these women to get illegal abortions. So instead of simply banning abortion, I personally believe that both sides need to work together to recognize and to prevent the root cause of getting an abortion: poverty or economic hardships. And we can help prevent or overcome these hardships by spreading information and help; more social programs for poor pregnant women and mothers, before and after pregnancy, better sex education, and actually caring and actively trying to help the baby and mother after the baby is born - something that pro-lifers have a tendency to forget. And by implementing these measures, we can hopefully reduce the rate of abortions, so that now a soon-to-be mother's choice isn't carry the child to term and risk financial consequences or abortion, it's carry a child to term with proper help, support, and knowledge.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Edit: Also, for my fellow Christians, we need to stop ostracizing mothers who've had abortions and sincerely repent.

"Mein Führur, do you agree with Talvezout?"

"Yes Jodl."

"But Mein Führur I object to your decision to legalize abortion!"

"Dammit Jodl! I said I agree with Talvezout!"

"Abortion is murder!"

"Shut your bald head up."

(I agree with Talvezout)

okay

the shitty hitler reacts video wasn't funny

this wasn't funny

it's cringeworthy, even

please stop

[Wallenburg]

This is what I've kept saying in more advanced discussions of abortion. Thank you guys for acknowledging the big fucking elephant in the room.

No problem

In all honesty, I think the abortion issue would become a minor one if both sides agreed and cooperated in trying to deal with the root causes, not the symptoms. I mean, it might just be me being optimistic, but who knows really.

I agree entirely with this, and I'm always glad when pro-lifers take this stance. Most everyone wants to reduce the number of abortions, and I think that we should work on alleviating poverty, reinvigorating sex education, encouraging the use of safe, low-cost contraceptives, and pushing viability further toward conception.

[Talvezout]

No problem

In all honesty, I think the abortion issue would become a minor one if both sides agreed and cooperated in trying to deal with the root causes, not the symptoms. I mean, it might just be me being optimistic, but who knows really.

I agree entirely with this, and I'm always glad when pro-lifers take this stance.

No problem, again. I'm honestly kinda sad that there isn't more pro-lifers (or at least vocal ones) who at least care somewhat for the mother and child post-birth.

Most everyone wants to reduce the number of abortions, and I think that we should work on alleviating poverty, reinvigorating sex education, encouraging the use of safe, low-cost contraceptives, and pushing viability further toward conception.

Which is something that I'll admit that my side needs to acknowledge. I mean, with the exception for the occasional lady, most women don't get abortions because they think it's gonna be a burden that will interrupt their lifestyle. No, they're scared and they don't know what to do, or they don't want to bring the baby into a lifetime of suffering. While I still heavily believe that abortion is ending a potential life, I still understand why a mother might have an abortion; the pastor of my parish, for example, described this reason as being like a person's stealing to feed his or her family.

[Zoice]

As much as I do like it when pro-lifers acknowledge some complexity, I have to disagree, I think it is a very black and white issue, and there's nothing wrong with abortion.