New Zealand to change name to ALL BLACKS

[Formicashig]

I have wanted to change the flag pretty much my entire life but having viewed the tacky and lacklustre short list, even I am inclined to vote for the current flag.

When I saw the final four I thought it was a joke.

[The Alexanderians]

If it's hitting referendum someone wants it.

Yeah, the PM. This isn't a citizens initiated referendum. This is because the PM wanting to "instill overt signs of patriotism". And patriotism is something New Zealanders just don't do.

I'm surprised it is going to ref though. If the PM wants to change it wouldn't there be other channels to go through?

[Costa Fierro]

I have wanted to change the flag pretty much my entire life but having viewed the tacky and lacklustre short list, even I am inclined to vote for the current flag.

When I saw the final four I thought it was a joke.

It is. None of the people on the panel had any qualifications in art or graphic design and they're only there because they're "prominent New Zealanders".

I've never supported changing the flag. Not because I'm one of those old farts who whines about people dying under that flag or keeping the Union Jack because "it's our heritage", it's that all the proposals are absolute shit.

[Costa Fierro]

I'm surprised it is going to ref though. If the PM wants to change it wouldn't there be other channels to go through?

I'm not. The PM can call a referendum if they want to. Stupid thing about this, is that it was going to happen no matter who won last year's election.

[The Alexanderians]

I have wanted to change the flag pretty much my entire life but having viewed the tacky and lacklustre short list, even I am inclined to vote for the current flag.

When I saw the final four I thought it was a joke.

It is. None of the people on the panel had any qualifications in art or graphic design and they're only there because they're "prominent New Zealanders".

I've never supported changing the flag. Not because I'm one of those old farts who whines about people dying under that flag or keeping the Union Jack because "it's our heritage", it's that all the proposals are absolute shit.

I will agree with you there, the new ones while unique don't feel right. Something with a kiwi would be better. In any case this is just a choice between multiple bowls of crap. The old one has to go but the new ones aren't better.

[The Alexanderians]

I'm surprised it is going to ref though. If the PM wants to change it wouldn't there be other channels to go through?

I'm not. The PM can call a referendum if they want to. Stupid thing about this, is that it was going to happen no matter who won last year's election.

Why was the ref already in the works at that point?

[Forsher]

Yeah, the PM. This isn't a citizens initiated referendum. This is because the PM wanting to "instill overt signs of patriotism". And patriotism is something New Zealanders just don't do.

I'm surprised it is going to ref though. If the PM wants to change it wouldn't there be other channels to go through?

Tomorrow, if parliament's sitting, John Key could change basically everything in New Zealand to whatever he wants. Then, on Friday, he could change it all back. The way NZ works, this is perfectly possible if you had the right kind of Bill and did everything under urgency. So, yes.

However, because such a scenario is completely unreasonable, we have a referendum. Yet it is a referendum entirely different to the ones on MMP or Scottish Independence or Irish Gay Marriage or Australian Republicanism in that it has been imposed top down.

There's actually a similarity with the last one because both have been manipulated to try and get the result closest to what the person with the most power wants (in the Australian case, of course, this was not a republic). In this case, by skipping the stage where you build a mandate (because this will fail) and instead rigging things so it gets as close to possible as looking as if change will happen and also the guilt trip of having spent 26 million dollars which will be "wasted" if you choose to have the current flag remain so.

This is not democracy in action. If you look at the facts, it's just the veneer of democracy. Rather it is another example of John Key (National?) not being so keen on democracy.*

*National's all for rotten boroughs but wouldn't entertain the idea of one being used to get the Conservatives in, possibly in part because the Conservatives want citizen's initiated referenda to be binding (they're not; they're essentially really big opinion polls) and possibly because doing so would be tantamount to acknowledging the 5% threshold is broken (and the existence of the threshold is the reason for the provision that let's NZ have rotten boroughs).

[The Nuclear Fist]

Those are some ugly fucking designs. Just keep the current one.

[Mushet]

I think those flags look cooler than the current ones, but I don't really care for any of them becoming New Zealand's.

Quite the radical change though. Don't new flags usually come with regime changes, except for the US which came with the acquisition of new states that kept the same concept.

[Forsher]

I'm not. The PM can call a referendum if they want to. Stupid thing about this, is that it was going to happen no matter who won last year's election.

Why was the ref already in the works at that point?

No, because it was also a Labour party promise. This was mentioned in this thread.

However, I think Labour would've preferred to have the first referendum be the one that asks whether or not the flag should change. Certainly, if you ask anyone associated with Labour right now if this is the case, they'll tell you this but that doesn't mean much.

People who suggest this order is the right way around (because people need to have that bit of information about what their vote could actually do) are also missing the bigger picture. You could have had, in the election this:

Do you support a change in New Zealand's national flag?
Yes
Yes, but my opinion is dependent on the alternatives
No
No, but my opinion is dependent on the options

or maybe,

yes
no
I'd need to see the options

Unless the straight nos achieved a majority, go ahead with the consideration panel and we'd have a new flag by the end of the year, at lower cost.

Alternatively, you could go ahead with the panel, develop some designs (the 40) and then have the referendum last Saturday or something asking:

Given the existence of these potential alternatives, do you support a flag change?

yes
no

This would be somewhat cheaper.

There is no justification at all for the current ordering, except that which says it's a deliberate attempt to manipulate voters.

Edit: actually, some would say this means you'd have to have another referendum to narrow down the long list if you did it this way. However, I think it's clear we could have had a transferable vote system, so you rank the four (five?) options in order of preference and eliminate the options one at a time until there's a majority.

[Forsher]

I think those flags look cooler than the current ones, but I don't really care for any of them becoming New Zealand's.

Quite the radical change though. Don't new flags usually come with regime changes, except for the US which came with the acquisition of new states that kept the same concept.

Generally, I would say yes.

However, there are lots of reasons why countries change flags. NZ's is a branding exercise. This is the perfect metaphor... look at Google. Although, unlike our four alternatives, the new logo seems as thought it'll be fairly easy to adapt to.

[The Alexanderians]

I think those flags look cooler than the current ones, but I don't really care for any of them becoming New Zealand's.

Quite the radical change though. Don't new flags usually come with regime changes, except for the US which came with the acquisition of new states that kept the same concept.

You should see some of the proposals for a 51 state US flag if Puerto Rico joined them. Some of them are quite out there.

So much for convention though

[Mushet]

I think those flags look cooler than the current ones, but I don't really care for any of them becoming New Zealand's.

Quite the radical change though. Don't new flags usually come with regime changes, except for the US which came with the acquisition of new states that kept the same concept.

Generally, I would say yes.

However, there are lots of reasons why countries change flags. NZ's is a branding exercise. This is the perfect metaphor... look at Google. Although, unlike our four alternatives, the new logo seems as thought it'll be fairly easy to adapt to.

Well if NZ needs a regime change I can always take over

[Formicashig]

I have wanted to change the flag pretty much my entire life but having viewed the tacky and lacklustre short list, even I am inclined to vote for the current flag.

When I saw the final four I thought it was a joke.

It is. None of the people on the panel had any qualifications in art or graphic design and they're only there because they're "prominent New Zealanders".

I've never supported changing the flag. Not because I'm one of those old farts who whines about people dying under that flag or keeping the Union Jack because "it's our heritage", it's that all the proposals are absolute shit.

I'm with you on that one mate! It does make me sad though because it is a once in a lifetime chance and we really blew it as a nation.

Though the timing was terrible - it's painfully obvious that this is just John Key's vanity project.

[Forsher]

It is. None of the people on the panel had any qualifications in art or graphic design and they're only there because they're "prominent New Zealanders".

I've never supported changing the flag. Not because I'm one of those old farts who whines about people dying under that flag or keeping the Union Jack because "it's our heritage", it's that all the proposals are absolute shit.

I'm with you on that one mate! It does make me sad though because it is a once in a lifetime chance and we really blew it as a nation.

Though the timing was terrible - it's painfully obvious that this is just John Key's vanity project.

He could've waited... I think he's probably going to get a fourth term. Or, at least, if he doesn't it'll be because of this. Makes you wonder if, perhaps, they don't have such a clear direction... the populist nature of Key means he always needs something to look at that isn't him, they depend on action of whatever kind.

[Meryuma]

The fern's pretty good, but damn I'm feeling that Red Peak.

As for whether the flag should be changed in the first place, absolutely.

[Costa Fierro]

I'm not. The PM can call a referendum if they want to. Stupid thing about this, is that it was going to happen no matter who won last year's election.

Why was the ref already in the works at that point?

Because that's what the PM was planning. This is his pet project. The problem for him, and unusual for referendums in New Zealand, is that it's binding.

I will agree with you there, the new ones while unique don't feel right. Something with a kiwi would be better. In any case this is just a choice between multiple bowls of crap. The old one has to go but the new ones aren't better.

The only reason people think the old one needs to go is because New Zealand was in uber decolonization mode in the 1980's, oddly enough when the PM and basically everyone in their 40's and 50's were being young and influenced. Fast forward 30 years and we have a new generation of slack-jawed morons who really couldn't give two shits about it because it doesn't affect them in any meaningful way.

I think those flags look cooler than the current ones, but I don't really care for any of them becoming New Zealand's.

Quite the radical change though. Don't new flags usually come with regime changes, except for the US which came with the acquisition of new states that kept the same concept.

Well, if we're looking at flag changes, Canada and Malawi didn't seem to have that many issues with changing their flags. Not that anyone really noticed.

Well if NZ needs a regime change I can always take over

Oh, no. Not more freedom and equality.

I'm with you on that one mate! It does make me sad though because it is a once in a lifetime chance and we really blew it as a nation.

I don't see the point. The only people who still think that New Zealand is a colony of Britain are the sorts of people who think you can drive to Hawai'i.

Though the timing was terrible - it's painfully obvious that this is just John Key's vanity project.

Well, yeah.

The fern's pretty good, but damn I'm feeling that Red Peak.

As for whether the flag should be changed in the first place, absolutely.

Why?

[Old Tyrannia]

I think it looks cool.

Right? It's iconic. It says "we are not Britain we are independent damn it"

No it doesn't, it says "maple leaf."

Besides, why on Earth would anyone be proud of not being British?

[The Blaatschapen]

Right? It's iconic. It says "we are not Britain we are independent damn it"

No it doesn't, it says "maple leaf."

Besides, why on Earth would anyone be proud of not being British?

I like not being on an island, thank you very much

[Cetacea]

Right? It's iconic. It says "we are not Britain we are independent damn it"

No it doesn't, it says "maple leaf."

Besides, why on Earth would anyone be proud of not being British?

lol
sassenachs

[Avalon]

I've had a few puppets based on RW New Zealand, and I created this flag for them:

Good luck, New Zealand.

[Imperializt Russia]

What's wrong with the Canton?

[Avalon]

What's wrong with the Canton?

It's not unique.

[Imperializt Russia]

What's wrong with the Canton?

It's not unique.

The Canton isn't, which is why it's only a Canton. The remainder of the flag is.

[Avalon]

It's not unique.

The Canton isn't, which is why it's only a Canton. The remainder of the flag is.

No it's not. Blue with a simplified version of the southern cross?, do you really think that's an original idea? it's all over, that combined with the most overused canton ever... The result is probably the less original flag ever made. It's nice, kinda cool, but not unique, if I were given a penny every time I've heard anyone calling it the Australian flag...