NationStates

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Othelos wrote:>women as objects to be acquired

Oh look, your statement is grammatically incorrect.

>grammatically correct greenposting

Kubra wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:Oh look, your statement is grammatically incorrect.

>grammatically correct greenposting

I'm harping on Othelos because they complained earlier how "<2000" was "grammatically incorrect".

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Kubra wrote: >grammatically correct greenposting

I'm harping on Othelos because they complained earlier how "<2000" was "grammatically incorrect".

At least I got my math right.

Othelos wrote:

Tafhan wrote:doesn't the Qur'an say specifically not to do that, though?

24:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

you can be modest and polite but still think of women as objects.

You can, but the Qur'an repeatedly makes it clear that you are to respect women, that men and women are equal, and that every human being has value.

Threlizdun wrote:

Othelos wrote:you can be modest and polite but still think of women as objects.

You can, but the Qur'an repeatedly makes it clear that you are to respect women, that men and women are equal, and that every human being has value.

Actually, I think even the numbers of times the word 'man' and the word 'woman' are used is equal.

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:

Aethrys wrote:The attitude towards women in Islam is off course dismissive. That they aren't thought of when considering what divine rewards to bestow is hardly surprising. Indeed, it seems that the only two things Islamic women can hope for are to be objectified and treated as property, or to be neglected and ignored. I imagine the various types of mandatory coverings aid in this. For the former they establish and enforce a difference between the sexes and obscure humanizing features, and for the latter, the principle of "out of sight, out of mind" applies, of course.

Well, I knew someone would bring that up so,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SYvYBx ... L&index=13

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/04/c ... s-to-hijab

And this quote from this article: https://advokatdyavola.wordpress.com/20 ... -veil-ban/

(Brackets are theirs, parentheses and asterisks mine)

“[these people] (proponents of the Hijab ban in France) typically don’t know much about Islam and would have a hard time saying what symbolizes what in that religion. But the more glaring flaw in the argument is that (Western )society is suffused with symbols of male supremacy that treat women as objects. S- magazines, n- photos, tight jeans* — all of these products, arguably, treat women as objects, as do so many aspects of our (Western) media culture. Every time I undress in the locker room of my gym, I see women bearing the scars of liposuction, tummy tucks, breast implants. Isn’t much of this done in order to conform to a male norm of female beauty that casts women as s- objects? Proponents of the burqa ban do not propose to ban all these objectifying practices. Indeed, they often participate in them.”

*Which by the way, can hurt women severely, http://www.bbc.com/news/health-33223045

You're presuming support for an issue. I'm ambivalent regarding a french style ban. Paradoxically, restrictions on such attire are themselves limiting freedoms. You're dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

The best argument in favor of such a ban is that anyone wearing it isn't going to be doing so of their own volition, in contrast with objectifying, evil, "slutty" western clothing. Consequently it's a better situation to be in than the UK's lunacy regarding informal religious courts.

Aethrys wrote:

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:
Well, I knew someone would bring that up so,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SYvYBx ... L&index=13

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/04/c ... s-to-hijab

And this quote from this article: https://advokatdyavola.wordpress.com/20 ... -veil-ban/

(Brackets are theirs, parentheses and asterisks mine)

“[these people] (proponents of the Hijab ban in France) typically don’t know much about Islam and would have a hard time saying what symbolizes what in that religion. But the more glaring flaw in the argument is that (Western )society is suffused with symbols of male supremacy that treat women as objects. S- magazines, n- photos, tight jeans* — all of these products, arguably, treat women as objects, as do so many aspects of our (Western) media culture. Every time I undress in the locker room of my gym, I see women bearing the scars of liposuction, tummy tucks, breast implants. Isn’t much of this done in order to conform to a male norm of female beauty that casts women as s- objects? Proponents of the burqa ban do not propose to ban all these objectifying practices. Indeed, they often participate in them.”

*Which by the way, can hurt women severely, http://www.bbc.com/news/health-33223045

You're presuming support for an issue. I'm ambivalent regarding a french style ban. Paradoxically, restrictions on such attire are themselves limiting freedoms. You're dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

The best argument in favor of such a ban is that anyone wearing it isn't going to be doing so of their own volition, in contrast with objectifying, evil, "slutty" western clothing. Consequently it's a better situation to be in than the UK's lunacy regarding informal religious courts.

I dunno what you mean in regards to the UK, but I think the first two links make it clear that the majority of Hijabis do so of their own free will

Just curious, are there any actual muslims in this discussion? I think it would a good idea that the believers have a say about their own religion in this discussion. Just a thought, no offense to anyone.

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:

Aethrys wrote:

You're presuming support for an issue. I'm ambivalent regarding a french style ban. Paradoxically, restrictions on such attire are themselves limiting freedoms. You're dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

The best argument in favor of such a ban is that anyone wearing it isn't going to be doing so of their own volition, in contrast with objectifying, evil, "slutty" western clothing. Consequently it's a better situation to be in than the UK's lunacy regarding informal religious courts.

I dunno what you mean in regards to the UK, but I think the first two links make it clear that the majority of Hijabis do so of their own free will

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... -told.html

The UK has seen a rise of unofficial religious courts forming among their Islamic communities, which they supported under the caveat that they had no official authority, and attending them and submitting to their rulings was entirely voluntary.

This is not the case, and people being forced to accept punishments for religious infractions has become the norm.

Therefore, one could conclude that there is a probability that a portion of those wearing these garments in these communities face significant coercion to do so.

Aethrys wrote:Therefore, one could conclude that there is a probability that a portion of those wearing these garments in these communities face significant coercion to do so.

This is such a token non-statement.
There is a probability that a portion of non-muslim women in white communities face coercion over their lifestyles.

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Aethrys wrote:Therefore, one could conclude that there is a probability that a portion of those wearing these garments in these communities face significant coercion to do so.

This is such a token non-statement.
There is a probability that a portion of non-muslim women in white communities face coercion over their lifestyles.

Contrary to popular belief, the fashion police, and indeed the fashion courts do not exist.

As right-wing fear mongering as it sounds, there are indeed Islamic religious courts that have taken control over muslim communities in order to force people to adhere to archaic religious codes that have no basis in the laws of their country of residence.

But do continue trying with your pseudo feminist "Everything in the west is male dominated/oppressive to women" nonsense.

Oasisa wrote:Just curious, are there any actual muslims in this discussion? I think it would a good idea that the believers have a say about their own religion in this discussion. Just a thought, no offense to anyone.

Well am just reading earlier posts...why would someone want to participate when the discussion started with so much hate and Islamophobia.
It is very easy to see criticisms and mind blowing understandings and interpretations of the Quran by some maniacs the least I can say are just another example of ISIS.

I mean for heaven sake, a civilization born from the religion that ruled Spain for nearly 800 years, to which Cordoba was its biggest city and the most enlightened in Europe is in our world today being demeaned to a group of fanatics such as ISIS or other groups is like a very good movie coming to a bad ending.

Come on people think before you simplify a whole religion with comments that breed hate and lack of understanding.

Its not like any other religious texts have inherent sexism, is it? None of this would have to do with the time when they were written, either.

Oasisa wrote:Just curious, are there any actual muslims in this discussion? I think it would a good idea that the believers have a say about their own religion in this discussion. Just a thought, no offense to anyone.

Yes. Several, myself included. (Islamic Republic e Jairi posted a ton of good debunking a couple pages back, but I don't know where he's gone now.)

Aethrys wrote:

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:
I dunno what you mean in regards to the UK, but I think the first two links make it clear that the majority of Hijabis do so of their own free will

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... -told.html

The UK has seen a rise of unofficial religious courts forming among their Islamic communities, which they supported under the caveat that they had no official authority, and attending them and submitting to their rulings was entirely voluntary.

This is not the case, and people being forced to accept punishments for religious infractions has become the norm.

Therefore, one could conclude that there is a probability that a portion of those wearing these garments in these communities face significant coercion to do so.

Well...I must admit I'm surprised. There are ignorant loonies like this running around in the Islamic world. However, people do what they want no matter what their religious authorities say. Example: in the Catholic Philippines, people often crucify themselves on Easter (they only go for five minutes, and usually there's an ambulance waiting next to the cross, so they don't die). There is nothing in the Bible, or any of the Catholic Church's (or any church I know of, for that matter) literature, sayings etc. that condone it. Catholic priests in the Philippines speak against this, but people still do it, and it's not like the church can arrest anyone. The vast majority of Islamic scholars (a vast majority of Sunni and all Shia that I know of), say very specifically, 'If you live in a non-Muslim country, you follow its laws. If you don't like e'm either move out of the country or use legal means, such as petitions, to try an enact change.' Example: in the US, it is illegal to pray in any way in schools. Muslim students in the US, while doing things like petitioning to try and enact change, follow the law to the letter. I, and most Muslims, disagree with Muslims taking the law into their own hands this way.

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:

Aethrys wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... -told.html

The UK has seen a rise of unofficial religious courts forming among their Islamic communities, which they supported under the caveat that they had no official authority, and attending them and submitting to their rulings was entirely voluntary.

This is not the case, and people being forced to accept punishments for religious infractions has become the norm.

Therefore, one could conclude that there is a probability that a portion of those wearing these garments in these communities face significant coercion to do so.

Well...I must admit I'm surprised. There are ignorant loonies like this running around in the Islamic world. However, people do what they want no matter what their religious authorities say. Example: in the Catholic Philippines, people often crucify themselves on Easter (they only go for five minutes, and usually there's an ambulance waiting next to the cross, so they don't die). There is nothing in the Bible, or any of the Catholic Church's (or any church I know of, for that matter) literature, sayings etc. that condone it. Catholic priests in the Philippines speak against this, but people still do it, and it's not like the church can arrest anyone. The vast majority of Islamic scholars (a vast majority of Sunni and all Shia that I know of), say very specifically, 'If you live in a non-Muslim country, you follow its laws. If you don't like e'm either move out of the country or use legal means, such as petitions, to try an enact change.' Example: in the US, it is illegal to pray in any way in schools. Muslim students in the US, while doing things like petitioning to try and enact change, follow the law to the letter. I, and most Muslims, disagree with Muslims taking the law into their own hands this way.

Unfortunately there are always those that think they know better, and these people tend to shout the loudest.

Aethrys wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:This is such a token non-statement.
There is a probability that a portion of non-muslim women in white communities face coercion over their lifestyles.

Contrary to popular belief, the fashion police, and indeed the fashion courts do not exist.

As right-wing fear mongering as it sounds, there are indeed Islamic religious courts that have taken control over muslim communities in order to force people to adhere to archaic religious codes that have no basis in the laws of their country of residence.

But do continue trying with your pseudo feminist "Everything in the west is male dominated/oppressive to women" nonsense.

OK...yes there is no uniformed police strutting around, but what about the skyrocketing rates of Anorexia and Bulimia among young women? What about things like Revenge Porn? Or Phobe Prince, who committed suicide after being bullied for her relation with a boy? or two people who committed suicide over the Ashely Madison incident or the skyrocketing teen woman suicide rate? (and to prove this isn't a rightist conspiracy, this comes form Vox: http://www.vox.com/2015/3/9/8174657/Teen-suicide-women

And you still haven't tried to rebut the first two links.

Yes, maybe a portion of Muslim women to face coercion. But coercion happens in every society that ever existed, and every society that will ever exist, because people naturally want to fit in, and some others will take advantage of that.

And also, myself and most other Muslims do disagree with Saudi-or Iran style hijab laws.

Aethrys wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:This is such a token non-statement.
There is a probability that a portion of non-muslim women in white communities face coercion over their lifestyles.

Contrary to popular belief, the fashion police, and indeed the fashion courts do not exist.

As right-wing fear mongering as it sounds, there are indeed Islamic religious courts that have taken control over muslim communities in order to force people to adhere to archaic religious codes that have no basis in the laws of their country of residence.

But do continue trying with your pseudo feminist "Everything in the west is male dominated/oppressive to women" nonsense.

Furthermore, let's take a YouTube video talking about a mathematical descovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rudzYPHuewc

Now, look how many of the comments relate to her appearance rather than to the video's actual edifying content.

Aethrys wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:This is such a token non-statement.
There is a probability that a portion of non-muslim women in white communities face coercion over their lifestyles.

Contrary to popular belief, the fashion police, and indeed the fashion courts do not exist.

As right-wing fear mongering as it sounds, there are indeed Islamic religious courts that have taken control over muslim communities in order to force people to adhere to archaic religious codes that have no basis in the laws of their country of residence.

But do continue trying with your pseudo feminist "Everything in the west is male dominated/oppressive to women" nonsense.

Do you get off on addressing posts I don't make, or were you just not arsed to read today?

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:Furthermore, let's take a YouTube video talking about a mathematical descovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rudzYPHuewc

Now, look how many of the comments relate to her appearance rather than to the video's actual edifying content.

Given the very same thing happen to men too; I don't really see your point.

Cannot think of a name wrote:---a whole bum-tonne of quotes from the Bible about similar things to this topic, and then some---

You see, this is why I don't Abrahamic~ 0u0

Noraika wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:---a whole bum-tonne of quotes from the Bible about similar things to this topic, and then some---

You see, this is why I don't Abrahamic~ 0u0

You realize there are several Abrahamic religions not even mentioned by this right?

The fact it isn't in Samaritan Hebrew, Modern Hebrew, or Greek helps to .

Cannot think of a name wrote: *Snip*

Where do I even begin...

While I am no longer a member of the "criticize Islam for being (allegedly) terrible" crowd, and thus I am not saying this to say that Christianity is "better" than Islam, I have to say that you've taken a lot of those verses out of context. First of all, a lot of it is from the Old Testament, which as I have said and provided evidence for earlier in this thread (and will again if you ask for it), does not apply as law in Christianity. So anything from Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Exodus, and pretty much any other Old Testament book can be tossed out.
I mean, this should be common sense really, a lot of this likely wasn't even practiced in Jesus's time, let alone in the Early Church. But, if you just want to smear Christianity without actually educating yourself I guess it's a good place to start.

As for the New Testament verses on slavery, you should realize (as should everyone else) that Christianity formed in the Roman Empire, in which slavery was a firmly entrenched institution (and was actually a lot better and relatively more humane than the race based slavery of the U.S), so obviously slavery had to be addressed in the Apostles' writings. It should be noted, especially by you considering you're posting said verses, that the slaves are not considered to be somehow lesser than a free man. In fact, allow me to show the COMPLETED versions of some of those verses you quoted.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Don't threaten them; remember, you both have the same Master in heaven, and He has no favorites. Ephesians 6:9 New Living Translation.

It's nice to put things in context.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

It should be noted that this is a PARABLE said by Jesus. And does not necessarily apply to Slavery. Note that he referred to them as "servants" rather than "slaves".

Colossians 3:18 *

18. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

19. Husbands, love your wives and never treat them harshly. Colossians 3:19.


I could do this for all your verses, but I suppose this is sufficient for my point.

Aelex wrote:

Islamic Meritocratic Transoxiana wrote:Furthermore, let's take a YouTube video talking about a mathematical descovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rudzYPHuewc

Now, look how many of the comments relate to her appearance rather than to the video's actual edifying content.

Given the very same thing happen to men too; I don't really see your point.

Your link seems to be about his shirt, not him.