European Migrant Crisis Megathread

[Kelinfort]

I think we ought to kick every European not historically from the UK out of the US. We must reclaim our culture, of course. That includes the Irish.

America is a melting-pot, there is no such thing as "American culture" or whatever, but European culture is most certainly real.

He has a a point, why should we change our culture for others? Our culture is our way of life, and if people don't like it, they can go elsewhere.

You've seen how the likes of Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt respond to anything remotely foreign. We can't practice our religions or cultural traditions over there, but their people want free reign in our countries?

What are those jeans you're wearing or that burger you're eating or that coke you're drinking, again? Don't be absurd, you're not going to change your nation's culture and I never suggested you should.

Just because other countries restrict democracy and free expression does not mean yours should.

[New Ogunquit]

Ahem. Collapse of Rome and Migration Period. Ahem, history likes to repeat itself.

I'm not sure how that even works? They're not even from the same places. And what would be "Rome" in this case?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration ... pire_1.png

[ErVaReAn rEpUbLiC]

Europe must continue to accept immigrants, or leave millions of future retirees to die in poverty. Those are their only options, short of the most massive entitlement reforms in Western history, reforms with absolutely no precedent.

So I say, good on the Germans for recognizing fact over fiction (for once).

While the US is free from all responsibility, having admitted less than 70,000 refugees annually, even as it has contributed substantially to the waves of refugees for the last decade or so. Great.

[Gallia-]

The only way to address declining TFR is introducing viable and sustainable, long-term immigration, hence why Scandinavia, France, UK, and America aren't going to be going extinct in population predictions. o:



How do you have "several generations" of immigrants? An immigrant is someone from a foreign country, not a native born to naturalized parents.

Immigrants and their descendants, you grammar nazi

I know what you meant, I was just pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of the American myth [melting pot] and its use of language and cultural assumptions like "generational immigrant", "hyphenated American", and "race". The USA survives on myth, not necessarily good policy. It isn't actively hostile to immigration, but it isn't capable of functioning on the same level as, say, Australia, because its divided into a tremendous number of people and a tremendous number of ethnic enclaves.

It's like if the European Union were more federalized.

It's not a fair comparison to make to an individual European country, since parts of Europe are very pro-immigration (as are parts of the USA) such as Sweden or France.

You should be comparing individual state or perhaps even regional differences between attitudes towards immigrants with European states instead. Consider Arizona, as an example, IIRC it has the most strict attitude against "illegal immigration".

[Imperialisium]

America is a melting-pot, there is no such thing as "American culture" or whatever, but European culture is most certainly real.

He has a a point, why should we change our culture for others? Our culture is our way of life, and if people don't like it, they can go elsewhere.

You've seen how the likes of Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt respond to anything remotely foreign. We can't practice our religions or cultural traditions over there, but their people want free reign in our countries?

Then Europeans better get crackin' on cracks. Have you seen European birthrates? The place will be depopulated in a few hundred years without immigration. Socialism assumes population growth and Europe isn't growing but for immigrants. You should be thankful that people are willing to move to countries actively hostile to their existence so they can pay for your retirement.

Just because the population is stagnate or declining doesn't mean it'll be depopulated. Such events are natural and happens throughout history. Europeans are not becoming genetically sterile. Further, that doesn't mean it is okay to have mass immigration because of it. Their is a correlation between industrialized countries and birth rate drops. As a society becomes more saturated with materials and resources the amount of disposable income increases to spend on other areas. Japan has a major population decline occurring where they are estimated to drop to 20-30 Million people. But that is simply because A:)Rising cost of living B:) People only want one or two kids which creates a stable replacement rate C:)You are seeing the effects of previous generations that had bigger families now growing older and dying off while the smaller more nucleic younger generation takes over. The smaller families are more desirable since it is easier to manage and allows more wealth distribution across 3-5 people rather than trying to provide for 6-12 and up in a single household.

This won't cause massive economic decline that can only be abated by massive immigration. Not even close. There might be a gradual drop, but that is solved by social adjustment to the new population and the markets would then stabilize.

[Gallia-]

Russia is an economic system for the New Europe.

[Glamour]

Britain has become less accessible to these migrants of late, and so mainland European countries will have to take more of them. Someone has to take them. We can't make them vanish into the thin of the air. The ones who don't drown on the way to Europe will land in Europe, and so the governments should be preparing for that certainty anyway without having to debate whether or not to allow it. Reality does not need to be allowed to happen. The only thing this is about is that based on the decisions made in Europe, reality could either become a lot worse or a lot better. We have to act in accordance with the fact that there is a global migrant crisis happening. You'd think they'd have started preparing for this when they started preparing to decimate the Middle East - the West, that is. Because it is now a Western problem, resulting from our actions in the Middle East and that place being rendered largely uninhabitable by war that we conducted. It is like the backbeat of a pendulum, or the surge of potential energy being released in a kinetic wave as with a Newton's cradle, or the speeding up of a point as it completes its first revolution. I believe they call this karma.

[Imperialisium]

Britain has become less accessible to these migrants of late, and so mainland European countries will have to take more of them. Someone has to take them. We can't make them vanish into the thin of the air. The ones who don't drown on the way to Europe will land in Europe, and so the governments should be preparing for that certainty anyway without having to debate whether or not to allow it. Reality does not need to be allowed to happen. The only thing this is about is that based on the decisions made in Europe, reality could either become a lot worse or a lot better. We have to act in accordance with the fact that there is a global migrant crisis happening. You'd think they'd have started preparing for this when they started preparing to decimate the Middle East - the West, that is. Because it is now a Western problem, resulting from our actions in the Middle East and that place being rendered largely uninhabitable by war that we conducted. It is like the backbeat of a pendulum, or the surge of potential energy being released in a kinetic wave as with a Newton's cradle, or the speeding up of a point as it completes its first revolution. I believe they call this karma.

Except the vast majority of European countries were not directly involved in the Middle East. Or only got involved due to NATO. The US and UK do not speak for the rest of Europe. Most Europeans I find found the war in Iraq unpopular and not warranted while the War in Afghanistan is a bit more mixed. Though support flagged as the goals of the ISAF were always not clear or able to be realized.

[MERIZoC]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/8/25/arson-suspected-at-refugee-shelter-in-germany.html

Likely another racist attack on a refugee shelter.

[Geilinor]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/8/25/arson-suspected-at-refugee-shelter-in-germany.html

Likely another racist attack on a refugee shelter.

Luckily, it looks like the government and newspapers are taking the right approach.

[United Marxist Nations]

Good on Germany. They really need to shift the burden from Greece, Italy and Malta in this crisis.

OR, we could just give Malta all the refugees so that it can finally wage its final holy war after converting them all to Christianity.

[Tierra Prime]

America is a melting-pot, there is no such thing as "American culture" or whatever, but European culture is most certainly real.

He has a a point, why should we change our culture for others? Our culture is our way of life, and if people don't like it, they can go elsewhere.

You've seen how the likes of Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt respond to anything remotely foreign. We can't practice our religions or cultural traditions over there, but their people want free reign in our countries?

What are those jeans you're wearing or that burger you're eating or that coke you're drinking, again? Don't be absurd, you're not going to change your nation's culture and I never suggested you should.

Just because other countries restrict democracy and free expression does not mean yours should.

You can hardly call business products culture.

I dare you to tell a Japanese person that hentai is an integral part of their culture, or a Russian that vodka is an integral part of their culture.

I never mentioned changing my nation's culture, why would I? The problem is other people trying to change European culture to suit themselves.

Just because other countries restrict democracy and free expression does not mean yours should.

They restrict cultural and religious change. They do it to the extreme, while we do nothing.

I'm not saying we should clamp down on the likes of Islam, only that we should work to preserve European values like secularism.

[Glamour]

Britain has become less accessible to these migrants of late, and so mainland European countries will have to take more of them. Someone has to take them. We can't make them vanish into the thin of the air. The ones who don't drown on the way to Europe will land in Europe, and so the governments should be preparing for that certainty anyway without having to debate whether or not to allow it. Reality does not need to be allowed to happen. The only thing this is about is that based on the decisions made in Europe, reality could either become a lot worse or a lot better. We have to act in accordance with the fact that there is a global migrant crisis happening. You'd think they'd have started preparing for this when they started preparing to decimate the Middle East - the West, that is. Because it is now a Western problem, resulting from our actions in the Middle East and that place being rendered largely uninhabitable by war that we conducted. It is like the backbeat of a pendulum, or the surge of potential energy being released in a kinetic wave as with a Newton's cradle, or the speeding up of a point as it completes its first revolution. I believe they call this karma.

Except the vast majority of European countries were not directly involved in the Middle East. Or only got involved due to NATO. The US and UK do not speak for the rest of Europe. Most Europeans I find found the war in Iraq unpopular and not warranted while the War in Afghanistan is a bit more mixed. Though support flagged as the goals of the ISAF were always not clear or able to be realized.

Most of the UK population didn't support the Iraq war either. Take from that what you will about the nature of democracy. And while very few of us actively support the economic enslavement of Africa, it has been a slow boiling pot and now the West is seeing the negative side of living as one species on one planet together following a long, "positive" period of seeing it as the white man's planet plus everybody else. We did not acknowledge the interconnectedness of all things, and now it is a concept beginning to prove itself forcefully to us in all sorts of ways. Migrants are the least of our worries. If California was to be struck by heavy earthquakes or tsunamis brought on by drought, or if Yellowstone were to erupt because of earthquakes, the North Americans would be drowning in the seas trying to reach Cuba or scrambling over the border to Mexico. One of the only true constants in life is irony. This isn't some crackpot theory either, it's simply how nature works, how climate change is affecting us and how delicate and fragile human civilisation really is. Not to mention that on a less cataclysmic scale, but with a much higher degree of probability and a shorter timescale, Florida will be underwater. That could be contained by the United States internally. But the point is that any of us could potentially become migrants - those in Ukraine did. We have to remember that when we respond to migration now, especially when we have taken the destitution of that part of the world for granted and ignored it while we become obese and pay enough to feed half a country to pump fat from our stomachs into our tits and arses and parade around in clothes that their children fashioned with their bare hands for too long.

[Arkinesia]

Europe must continue to accept immigrants, or leave millions of future retirees to die in poverty. Those are their only options, short of the most massive entitlement reforms in Western history, reforms with absolutely no precedent.

So I say, good on the Germans for recognizing fact over fiction (for once).

While the US is free from all responsibility, having admitted less than 70,000 refugees annually, even as it has contributed substantially to the waves of refugees for the last decade or so. Great.

I want an America that denies no law-abiding person admittance to the country. So nice attempt at deflection, but you missed.

[Tierra Prime]

America is a melting-pot, there is no such thing as "American culture" or whatever, but European culture is most certainly real.

He has a a point, why should we change our culture for others? Our culture is our way of life, and if people don't like it, they can go elsewhere.

You've seen how the likes of Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt respond to anything remotely foreign. We can't practice our religions or cultural traditions over there, but their people want free reign in our countries?

Then Europeans better get crackin' on cracks. Have you seen European birthrates? The place will be depopulated in a few hundred years without immigration. Socialism assumes population growth and Europe isn't growing but for immigrants. You should be thankful that people are willing to move to countries actively hostile to their existence so they can pay for your retirement.

The issue with population growth can easily be solved, just look at Russia and Canada.

My country doesn't even have an issue with population growth, so we don't need immigration at all.

[Arkinesia]

The issue with population growth can easily be solved, just look at Russia and Canada.

You'll need to be more specific than that, because I honestly haven't the foggiest what you're talking about.

Seeing the edit, what is your country of origin, if I may?

[MERIZoC]

Then Europeans better get crackin' on cracks. Have you seen European birthrates? The place will be depopulated in a few hundred years without immigration. Socialism assumes population growth and Europe isn't growing but for immigrants. You should be thankful that people are willing to move to countries actively hostile to their existence so they can pay for your retirement.

The issue with population growth can easily be solved, just look at Russia and Canada.

My country doesn't even have an issue with population growth, so we don't need immigration at all.

…Canada, the country that relies heavily on immigration to sustain its population?

[Rio Cana]

Immigrants and their descendants, you grammar nazi

I know what you meant, I was just pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of the American myth [melting pot] and its use of language and cultural assumptions like "generational immigrant", "hyphenated American", and "race". The USA survives on myth, not necessarily good policy. It isn't actively hostile to immigration, but it isn't capable of functioning on the same level as, say, Australia, because its divided into a tremendous number of people and a tremendous number of ethnic enclaves.

It's like if the European Union were more federalized.

It's not a fair comparison to make to an individual European country, since parts of Europe are very pro-immigration (as are parts of the USA) such as Sweden or France.

You should be comparing individual state or perhaps even regional differences between attitudes towards immigrants with European states instead. Consider Arizona, as an example, IIRC it has the most strict attitude against "illegal immigration".

When it comes to Arizona you need to remember that the original inhabitants, the natives and Mexicans, over time were outnumbered by people coming in from other states especially before and after WW II. Many retirees fom the US Midwest and some from the Eastern States starting pouring in during the 1980's. So today, the original people s are outnumbered by right leaning people who want financial stability, green grass and golf.

Found out 60% of the Republican voters in Az. come from Maricopa county which is around three times the size of the island I am on. So cut them from Arziona and the state would go Democratic. Phoenix which is in Maricopa county is generally democratic voting not Republican.

Maricopa has been republican since 1948. Many out-staters moved there after the end of WW II thus most likely affecting the 1948 elections.

Map of Arizona with Maricopa county in red.

[Othelos]

America is a melting-pot, there is no such thing as "American culture" or whatever, but European culture is most certainly real.

You think america doesn't have a culture? Yep, no people live in the US.

[Othelos]

Socialism assumes population growth

Actually, that's capitalism. Less growth = less people powering the economy through jobs (either holding or creating them) or consuming products.

[Geilinor]

Socialism assumes population growth

Actually, that's capitalism. Less growth = less people powering the economy through jobs (either holding or creating them) or consuming products.

No economic system assumes population growth. Except feudalism, where you need soldiers and people to work the fields.

[Othelos]

Actually, that's capitalism. Less growth = less people powering the economy through jobs (either holding or creating them) or consuming products.

No economic system assumes population growth. Except feudalism, where you need soldiers and people to work the fields.

As well as capitalism.

[Geilinor]

No economic system assumes population growth. Except feudalism, where you need soldiers and people to work the fields.

As well as capitalism.

Not necessarily, if technology can increase productivity enough.

[Tierra Prime]

The issue with population growth can easily be solved, just look at Russia and Canada.

You'll need to be more specific than that, because I honestly haven't the foggiest what you're talking about.

Seeing the edit, what is your country of origin, if I may?

Ireland.

You said Europe needs immigration because it will become depopulated, but you can easily reverse that by using money as an incentive, as they have done in Canada and Russia.

[Tierra Prime]

The issue with population growth can easily be solved, just look at Russia and Canada.

My country doesn't even have an issue with population growth, so we don't need immigration at all.

…Canada, the country that relies heavily on immigration to sustain its population?

The growth rate is 0.76%.

It has slowed down since the 60's, but it's still 10% every decade.