European Migrant Crisis Megathread

[The Huskar Social Union]

I have a very simple solution to this "migrant" crisis. Simply position regiments along the border give a warning to the "migrants" then open fire. There I have just solved the entire problem. If liberals question you put them in a room with these "migrants".

Yup sure, lets just slaughter a ton of people, that will totally fix the situation and not drive more people into the hands of the Islamic State who will point at it and go "Aha we were right evil west!"

I wonder which poster you are a puppet of as well.

[Baltenstein]

Our infrastructure and social structure is already pushed to breaking point too, as it much of europes.
I've seen no evidence that middle class islamic families are any better.

Further, most of the migrants are not Syrians as has been repeatedly shown.
Only 1/5 of those turning up in Europe are from Syria.

Incorrect.

What has been shown is that only 1/5th of the asylum seekers in 2014 were from Syria. You're using outdated information and, well, one should not let outdated information guide public policy, eh?

So well before the start of the current "Migrant crisis" Syrians made up 20 % of the asylum seekers. Specifically, 122 790 asylum applications were lodged by Syrians in 2014, out of a total of 625 065 asylum applications.

After the "Migrant crisis" started during the summer of last year, the numbers changed. Syrians made up 29 % of the asylum seekers in 2015. That is, 362 775 applications for asylum out of a total of 1 255 640. The numbers have changed from 1/5 to 1/4 and closer to 1/3. The rate is increasing significantly as the total number of Syrian applicants remain high while the total number of applicants from Albania, Kosovo and Serbia go down. (In fact, if you really want to talk about "those turning up in Europe" and thus exclude European asylum applications, Syrians will make up 33 %)

The demographics also seem to be changing. The current arrivals in Greece include more women and children than before, as the rate of men has been reduced from 55 % to 38 %.

Which is precisely the reason why people to whom the refugee status does not apply (aka, illegal immigrants) and refugees who have repeatedly shown that they are trouble-makers (aka multiple cases of violent and/or sexual crime) should be deported more severely and decisively. To free room and resources that genuine refugee families are much more in need of.

[Aelex]

I do not believe that people should be let into a country based on "whether they can assimilate", because assimilation is so nebulous it can be a source for endlessly shifting goalposts. In every quantifiable way, there is no detectable major problem with the immigrants whiich is worth letting thousands of people drown in the sea or get killed in Lybia and Syria and Afghanistan over.

Apart from the fact that they won't integrate and will form ghettos, are coming from extremists areas and thus likely to radicalize other people into the country they forced themselves into, aren't skilled enough to get jobs in our tertiary based economy and will thus just weigh on both our economy AND welfare?
I mean, sure, if you count your emotions as a "quantifiable argument", I guess there is indeed at least one argument in favor of allowing those migrants to come.

[Vassenor]

I have a very simple solution to this "migrant" crisis. Simply position regiments along the border give a warning to the "migrants" then open fire. There I have just solved the entire problem. If liberals question you put them in a room with these "migrants".

Mass murder is the solution to all problems *nods*

Of course. Anyone who thinks it isn't is a #terroristsympathiser.

[Gravlen]

Incorrect.

What has been shown is that only 1/5th of the asylum seekers in 2014 were from Syria. You're using outdated information and, well, one should not let outdated information guide public policy, eh?

So well before the start of the current "Migrant crisis" Syrians made up 20 % of the asylum seekers. Specifically, 122 790 asylum applications were lodged by Syrians in 2014, out of a total of 625 065 asylum applications.

After the "Migrant crisis" started during the summer of last year, the numbers changed. Syrians made up 29 % of the asylum seekers in 2015. That is, 362 775 applications for asylum out of a total of 1 255 640. The numbers have changed from 1/5 to 1/4 and closer to 1/3. The rate is increasing significantly as the total number of Syrian applicants remain high while the total number of applicants from Albania, Kosovo and Serbia go down. (In fact, if you really want to talk about "those turning up in Europe" and thus exclude European asylum applications, Syrians will make up 33 %)

The demographics also seem to be changing. The current arrivals in Greece include more women and children than before, as the rate of men has been reduced from 55 % to 38 %.

Which is precisely the reason why people to whom the refugee status does not apply (aka, illegal immigrants) and refugees who have repeatedly shown that they are trouble-makers (aka multiple cases of violent and/or sexual crime) should be deported more severely and decisively. To free room and resources that genuine refugee families are much more in need of.

I don't disagree that people who are illegal immigrants and people who've had their applications for asylum rejected should be encouraged to return and, if necessary, deported. It needs to happen, and it needs to happen in a timely manner. Refugees who commit criminal acts should not simply be deported, however. They need to be given a new assessment after they've served the punishment for their crimes. Only if they no longer qualify for refugee status can and should they be returned.

I'm not sure how you deport someone "more severely", but it should be - and it is - a focus of european governments.

[Malisin]

Which is precisely the reason why people to whom the refugee status does not apply (aka, illegal immigrants) and refugees who have repeatedly shown that they are trouble-makers (aka multiple cases of violent and/or sexual crime) should be deported more severely and decisively. To free room and resources that genuine refugee families are much more in need of.

Refugees who commit criminal acts should not simply be deported, however.

Why not?

[The Kievan People]

What "unilateral action" did Germany take?

Suspending European rules that require asylum seekers to apply for refugee status in the first country they arrive in.

[Zoice]

Incorrect.

What has been shown is that only 1/5th of the asylum seekers in 2014 were from Syria. You're using outdated information and, well, one should not let outdated information guide public policy, eh?

So well before the start of the current "Migrant crisis" Syrians made up 20 % of the asylum seekers. Specifically, 122 790 asylum applications were lodged by Syrians in 2014, out of a total of 625 065 asylum applications.

After the "Migrant crisis" started during the summer of last year, the numbers changed. Syrians made up 29 % of the asylum seekers in 2015. That is, 362 775 applications for asylum out of a total of 1 255 640. The numbers have changed from 1/5 to 1/4 and closer to 1/3. The rate is increasing significantly as the total number of Syrian applicants remain high while the total number of applicants from Albania, Kosovo and Serbia go down. (In fact, if you really want to talk about "those turning up in Europe" and thus exclude European asylum applications, Syrians will make up 33 %)

The demographics also seem to be changing. The current arrivals in Greece include more women and children than before, as the rate of men has been reduced from 55 % to 38 %.

Which is precisely the reason why people to whom the refugee status does not apply (aka, illegal immigrants) and refugees who have repeatedly shown that they are trouble-makers (aka multiple cases of violent and/or sexual crime) should be deported more severely and decisively. To free room and resources that genuine refugee families are much more in need of.

Refugees that immigrate illegally or steal when they are in the new country tend to be the ones that are most in need, if they weren't so desperate they wouldn't be taking those measures.

[Baltenstein]

Refugees that immigrate illegally or steal when they are in the new country tend to be the ones that are most in need, if they weren't so desperate they wouldn't be taking those measures.

Um, no. By "illegal immigration" I mean "trying to enter a country posing as a refugee while you aren´t one" (The overwhelming majority of Moroccans, Tunisians and Algerians falls into this category).

And stuff like sexual crime simply shows that you´re an asshole, not that you are "desperate".

Refugees who commit criminal acts should not simply be deported, however. They need to be given a new assessment after they've served the punishment for their crimes.

In German law, you can and will lose your refugee status if you commit crimes of a certain calibre. Don't know about the regulations in other countries.

[Republic of Coldwater]

So ignoring the point then.

And by assimilation, I mean have it so they are capable of co-existing with our fundamental values as a society, free speech, gender equality, etc.

How do you measure a "capability to coexist"?

Millions of Muslims have been living in Europe for years and years now, where is all the violence and censorship I have been promised? I have been promised a Muslim Zombie Apocalypse. Where is it?

Well, crime rates hasn't really been any better, has it

[Zoice]

Refugees that immigrate illegally or steal when they are in the new country tend to be the ones that are most in need, if they weren't so desperate they wouldn't be taking those measures.

Um, no. By "illegal immigration" I mean "trying to enter a country posing as a refugee while you aren´t one" (The overwhelming majority of Moroccans, Tunisians and Algerians falls into this category).

And stuff like sexual crime simply shows that you´re an asshole, not that you are "desperate".

Is Syria the only shithole from which people are allowed to flee? Refugees are refugees, whether they're fleeing Syria, Nigeria, or North Korea.

[Sanctissima]

Um, no. By "illegal immigration" I mean "trying to enter a country posing as a refugee while you aren´t one" (The overwhelming majority of Moroccans, Tunisians and Algerians falls into this category).

And stuff like sexual crime simply shows that you´re an asshole, not that you are "desperate".

Is Syria the only shithole from which people are allowed to flee? Refugees are refugees, whether they're fleeing Syria, Nigeria, or North Korea.

Frankly, you aren't a refugee if you aren't fleeing war, persecution or some terrible disaster. Wanting a better life alone does not make you a refugee. Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are by no means in the same state as places like Libya and Syria.

[Zoice]

Is Syria the only shithole from which people are allowed to flee? Refugees are refugees, whether they're fleeing Syria, Nigeria, or North Korea.

Frankly, you aren't a refugee if you aren't fleeing war, persecution or some terrible disaster. Wanting a better life alone does not make you a refugee. Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are by no means in the same state as places like Libya and Syria.

Persecution does not have to be on a genocidal civil war scale to justify being a refugee. If you're a blogger in Bangladesh, which is way better than Syria at the moment, you can be a refugee if the Bangladeshi government fails to put you in protective custody, which they always do.

[Vassenor]

How do you measure a "capability to coexist"?

Millions of Muslims have been living in Europe for years and years now, where is all the violence and censorship I have been promised? I have been promised a Muslim Zombie Apocalypse. Where is it?

Well, crime rates hasn't really been any better, has it

Hasn't it been shown here several times that crime in general is going down and has been for some time?

[Sanctissima]

Frankly, you aren't a refugee if you aren't fleeing war, persecution or some terrible disaster. Wanting a better life alone does not make you a refugee. Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are by no means in the same state as places like Libya and Syria.

Persecution does not have to be on a genocidal civil war scale to justify being a refugee. If you're a blogger in Bangladesh, which is way better than Syria at the moment, you can be a refugee if the Bangladeshi government fails to put you in protective custody, which they always do.

We're specifically talking about Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco here. The vast majority of the people emigrating from these countries are not refugees, they're immigrants. Aside from the Sahrawis of Southern Morocco (who only represent a handful of the refugees heading to Europe), none are actual refugees.

[Zoice]

Persecution does not have to be on a genocidal civil war scale to justify being a refugee. If you're a blogger in Bangladesh, which is way better than Syria at the moment, you can be a refugee if the Bangladeshi government fails to put you in protective custody, which they always do.

We're specifically talking about Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco here. The vast majority of the people emigrating from these countries are not refugees, they're immigrants. Aside from the Sahrawis of Southern Morocco (who only represent a handful of the refugees heading to Europe), none are actual refugees.

If they are legitimately in danger where they came from, which many could be because of religious persecution or tensions without any actual civil war, then they are refugees. Otherwise they are immigrants, but I think you've overestimated how many people are immigrants, and I don't think you're taking the plight of the refugees seriously enough.

[Sanctissima]

We're specifically talking about Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco here. The vast majority of the people emigrating from these countries are not refugees, they're immigrants. Aside from the Sahrawis of Southern Morocco (who only represent a handful of the refugees heading to Europe), none are actual refugees.

If they are legitimately in danger where they came from, which many could be because of religious persecution or tensions without any actual civil war, then they are refugees. Otherwise they are immigrants, but I think you've overestimated how many people are immigrants, and I don't think you're taking the plight of the refugees seriously enough.

In terms of those three countries, I'm taking it as seriously as it ought to be, which is to say not at all. The vast majority are Sunni Muslims, so there's no religious persecution whatsoever for them in their homecountries. The only reason they're coming to Europe is because of the economy and social policies. These people are immigrants, and Western Europe (particularly France since that's where most are going) cannot afford to accept them by the droves.

[Zoice]

If they are legitimately in danger where they came from, which many could be because of religious persecution or tensions without any actual civil war, then they are refugees. Otherwise they are immigrants, but I think you've overestimated how many people are immigrants, and I don't think you're taking the plight of the refugees seriously enough.

In terms of those three countries, I'm taking it as seriously as it ought to be, which is to say not at all. The vast majority are Sunni Muslims, so there's no religious persecution whatsoever for them in their homecountries. The only reason they're coming to Europe is because of the economy and social policies. These people are immigrants, and Western Europe (particularly France since that's where most are going) cannot afford to accept them by the droves.

Islamic law enforced by the government is not a good system. The people fleeing there because you get your head chopped off for nothing aren't motivated by better dental care, they're motivated by being terrified of living there. Would you want to live in Saudi Arabia? *Involuntary shudder* The people hurt by super hard right Muslims is mostly other Muslims that aren't quite as super insane as they are.

[Sanctissima]

In terms of those three countries, I'm taking it as seriously as it ought to be, which is to say not at all. The vast majority are Sunni Muslims, so there's no religious persecution whatsoever for them in their homecountries. The only reason they're coming to Europe is because of the economy and social policies. These people are immigrants, and Western Europe (particularly France since that's where most are going) cannot afford to accept them by the droves.

Islamic law enforced by the government is not a good system. The people fleeing there because you get your head chopped off for nothing aren't motivated by better dental care, they're motivated by being terrified of living there. Would you want to live in Saudi Arabia? *Involuntary shudder* The people hurt by super hard right Muslims is mostly other Muslims that aren't quite as super insane as they are.

Again Zoice, those three countries in particular. Saudi Arabia is a whole other basket of nutjobbery (and at any rate, there aren't a whole lot of immigrants coming from the North Korea of the Middle-East). Neither the Moroccan, Algerian or Tunisian governments are perfect, but they're far from being Wahhabists. These people aren't in any immediate danger, and frankly, Western Europe can't serve as home to everyone who wants to leave their shitty third-world country.

[The Kievan People]

Islamic law enforced by the government is not a good system. The people fleeing there because you get your head chopped off for nothing aren't motivated by better dental care, they're motivated by being terrified of living there. Would you want to live in Saudi Arabia? *Involuntary shudder* The people hurt by super hard right Muslims is mostly other Muslims that aren't quite as super insane as they are.

The number of people who would qualify as refugees under such a comically expansive definition is precisely why it fails. And it vindicates anyone who says refugees will eventually swamp Europe completely, as there are far more people who could be refugees to you (and I suspect many people of the same political persuasion) than there are Europeans and Americans put together.

[Geilinor]

Islamic law enforced by the government is not a good system. The people fleeing there because you get your head chopped off for nothing aren't motivated by better dental care, they're motivated by being terrified of living there. Would you want to live in Saudi Arabia? *Involuntary shudder* The people hurt by super hard right Muslims is mostly other Muslims that aren't quite as super insane as they are.

The number of people who would qualify as refugees under such a comically expansive definition is precisely why it fails. And it vindicates anyone who says refugees will eventually swamp Europe completely, as there are far more people who could be refugees to you (and I suspect many people of the same political persuasion) than there are Europeans and Americans put together.

Muslim countries aren't going to be completely emptied, but the only way to stop it is to promote democratic, secular government.

[Sanctissima]

The number of people who would qualify as refugees under such a comically expansive definition is precisely why it fails. And it vindicates anyone who says refugees will eventually swamp Europe completely, as there are far more people who could be refugees to you (and I suspect many people of the same political persuasion) than there are Europeans and Americans put together.

Muslim countries aren't going to be completely emptied, but the only way to stop it is to promote democratic, secular government.

It's not just Muslim countries so much as it is the third world as a whole. We've been trying the "promote democratic government" approach for a while now, it hasn't worked.

[Baltenstein]

In terms of those three countries, I'm taking it as seriously as it ought to be, which is to say not at all. The vast majority are Sunni Muslims, so there's no religious persecution whatsoever for them in their homecountries. The only reason they're coming to Europe is because of the economy and social policies. These people are immigrants, and Western Europe (particularly France since that's where most are going) cannot afford to accept them by the droves.

Islamic law enforced by the government is not a good system. The people fleeing there because you get your head chopped off for nothing aren't motivated by better dental care, they're motivated by being terrified of living there. Would you want to live in Saudi Arabia? *Involuntary shudder* The people hurt by super hard right Muslims is mostly other Muslims that aren't quite as super insane as they are.

Seriously dude, the Islamic World has like, what, 1,5 billion inhabitants? Are you arguing that all of them should be given the right to enter Europe as "refugees" and get asylum?

Oh, and I just saw this:

Against: Jews

Oh my.

[Thirdwheelium]

...When did religious persecution become a good thing?

Just because we're white, right? Racist.

And naturally, it's alright and not discriminative to impose Sharia in a muslim country.

[Gravlen]

Refugees who commit criminal acts should not simply be deported, however.

Why not?

Because their refugee status makes it impossible to send them back. The principle of non refoulement, that is the principle that nobody can be returned to persecution, torture or death, is one that we cannot deviate from.

There's two exceptions to this: One is if the refugee is guilty of very serious crimes, and is excluded from refugee status. We're talking about war crimes and crimes against humanity here, so it's unlikely to happen while staying as a refugee in the host country.
The second is if the refugee no longer is entitled to protection because the reasons for asylum no longer is there. For example if the dictator has been toppled or a conflict has come to an end. At that point, following a renewed assessment of the asylum status and a revocation of said status, the (now former) refugee can be deported.