European Migrant Crisis Megathread

[The Alma Mater]

You realise that your proposed solution does not work ? It has only been tried for 50 years or so, with negative results.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that internment and or deportation on the basis of religious discrimination had such a pure history of success.

It has a better history of succes. Which is indeed quite horrid; but putting an inferior solution opposite to it is not going to sway people.
Sadly, I also have no better idea

[Ostroeuropa]

You realise that your proposed solution does not work ? It has only been tried for 50 years or so, with negative results.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that internment and or deportation on the basis of religious discrimination had such a pure history of success.

It is better than the alternative, and there is some amount of integration that has happened, though not enough. Again, reinforcing lines between groups is the worst thing you could do.

We've been trying for decades, it hasn't worked. Not all cultures are compatible.

[Allanea]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that internment and or deportation on the basis of religious discrimination had such a pure history of success.

It is better than the alternative, and there is some amount of integration that has happened, though not enough. Again, reinforcing lines between groups is the worst thing you could do.

We've been trying for decades, it hasn't worked. Not all cultures are compatible.

How has it "not worked"? What is the epic disaster that has occurred?

[Ostroeuropa]

We've been trying for decades, it hasn't worked. Not all cultures are compatible.

How has it "not worked"? What is the epic disaster that has occurred?

Check the thread, we've posted plenty.

But try these, notably, these only need some of them present.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4996/ ... lamization
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7151/ ... lamization

Some data, some incidents.

[Allanea]

Most of these are either:

1. Not really data (quotes from interviewed dudes expressing their opinion on the radio).
2. 2-3 anecdotes (especially, repeated reference to the Rotterham incident).
3. A reference to the same right-wing tabloids. (For example, the 3,000-extremist stat is from The Express again). Note that - even according to the same tabloid - these 3,000 extremists, this vast army of terror.... hatched six terror plots in 2015, all of them stopped by MI-5.
4. Unrelated stats (there is an increase in child abuse reported to the police - but it's not clear if it's due to an increase in child abuse... or, as the British government claims, due to people feeling more empowered to come forward. If anything, people feeling empowered to come forward is a GOOD thing. If Muslims somehow manage to empower people to complain about child abuse, ALLAHU AQBAR.


Should I go on?

[USHALLNOTPASS]

So we try to change that, and remind misguided people that allowing violence inside religious groups only serves to hurt people in that group. Your solution of banning Muslim migrants doesn't help.

Temporarily banning them.

And that would cause them to rage, and possibly more muslims will join the ranks of ISIS. People do stupid things when they are angry. Look at Hitler's rise to power. We needn't make big decisions when we are pissed off. We should cooperate with them and have mutual respect instead of marginalizing them.

[Ostroeuropa]

Temporarily banning them.

And that would cause them to rage, and possibly more muslims will join the ranks of ISIS. People do stupid things when they are angry. Look at Hitler's rise to power. We needn't make big decisions when we are pissed off. We should cooperate with them and have mutual respect instead of marginalizing them.

They don't respect us, there is little point. By the way, that's part of the problem. These groups are too easily provoked to violence. The presence of them has already had profound effects on our culture even as a minority. So ban them, and deport the ones who go apeshit. If they were born here, just imprison them for terrorism.

Appeasement to far-right religious fanatics is not a solution.

Most of these are either:

1. Not really data (quotes from interviewed dudes expressing their opinion on the radio).
2. 2-3 anecdotes (especially, repeated reference to the Rotterham incident).
3. A reference to the same right-wing tabloids. (For example, the 3,000-extremist stat is from The Express again). Note that - even according to the same tabloid - these 3,000 extremists, this vast army of terror.... hatched six terror plots in 2015, all of them stopped by MI-5.
4. Unrelated stats (there is an increase in child abuse reported to the police - but it's not clear if it's due to an increase in child abuse... or, as the British government claims, due to people feeling more empowered to come forward. If anything, people feeling empowered to come forward is a GOOD thing. If Muslims somehow manage to empower people to complain about child abuse, ALLAHU AQBAR.


Should I go on?

Well, ignoring that you're wrong here, let's run with it.

We've seen repeated attempts from the establishment to avoid coming across inconvenient information about muslims and suppress incidents.
The lack of data being collected is partially a result of that. Were it not, you should be able to find good figures on them being assimilated, right?
You're whining about a lack of hard data (despite me providing some.), well, if the people responsible for collecting the data are a part of the problem in the first place, then a shortage is to be expected. What we have are numerous incidents saying there is a culture of fear in british institutions.

Suppose if every time someone were sexually assaulted they were punished for reporting it and berated with comments about scare mongering and such, and then you come along and whine about a lack of hard data to support the idea its endemic.

Warraq

"Muslims avail themselves of the right to criticize in their frequent denunciations of Westernculture, in terms that would have been deemed racist, neocolonialist, or imperialist had a European directed them against Islam. Without criticism, Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified in its totalitarian, intolerant, paranoid past. It will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality, and truth."

Hume

"[The Koran is a] wild and absurd performance. Let us attend to his [Muhammad's] narration; and we shall soon find that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, and bigotry as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers ...."

Are you seriously accusing those two of Islamophobia too?

[Allanea]

I don't think assimilation is a worthy goal, nor can it be measured.

If there was a massive spike of crime (like the Eurabia propagandists have claimed for 45 years since the term has been introduced), we would know. If there were a massive spike of terrorism, we would know. If there were an economic collapse, we would know.

But there is not such a spike in crime, there is not a spike of terrorism, the European economy is better off than it was before the Eurabia propagandists started whining - and they started whining decades and years before the current crisis began.

I do not believe that people should be let into a country based on "whether they can assimilate", because assimilation is so nebulous it can be a source for endlessly shifting goalposts. In every quantifiable way, there is no detectable major problem with the immigrants whiich is worth letting thousands of people drown in the sea or get killed in Lybia and Syria and Afghanistan over.

[MarcoRubio]

Let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Angela Merkel doesn't know what she's doing. She knows exactly what she's doing. Angela Merkel is undertaking a systematic effort to bring falafel pros to Germany, to make it like the opposite of Eastern Europe's fundamentalist world.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't think assimilation is a worthy goal, nor can it be measured.

If there was a massive spike of crime (like the Eurabia propagandists have claimed for 45 years since the term has been introduced), we would know. If there were a massive spike of terrorism, we would know. If there were an economic collapse, we would know.

But there is not such a spike in crime, there is not a spike of terrorism, the European economy is better off than it was before the Eurabia propagandists started whining - and they started whining decades and years before the current crisis began.

I do not believe that people should be let into a country based on "whether they can assimilate", because assimilation is so nebulous it can be a source for endlessly shifting goalposts. In every quantifiable way, there is no detectable major problem with the immigrants whiich is worth letting thousands of people drown in the sea or get killed in Lybia and Syria and Afghanistan over.

So ignoring the point then.

And by assimilation, I mean have it so they are capable of co-existing with our fundamental values as a society, free speech, gender equality, etc.

[USHALLNOTPASS]

And that would cause them to rage, and possibly more muslims will join the ranks of ISIS. People do stupid things when they are angry. Look at Hitler's rise to power. We needn't make big decisions when we are pissed off. We should cooperate with them and have mutual respect instead of marginalizing them.

They don't respect us, there is little point. By the way, that's part of the problem. These groups are too easily provoked to violence. The presence of them has already had profound effects on our culture even as a minority. So ban them, and deport the ones who go apeshit. If they were born here, just imprison them for terrorism.

Appeasement to far-right religious fanatics is not a solution.

Most of these are either:

1. Not really data (quotes from interviewed dudes expressing their opinion on the radio).
2. 2-3 anecdotes (especially, repeated reference to the Rotterham incident).
3. A reference to the same right-wing tabloids. (For example, the 3,000-extremist stat is from The Express again). Note that - even according to the same tabloid - these 3,000 extremists, this vast army of terror.... hatched six terror plots in 2015, all of them stopped by MI-5.
4. Unrelated stats (there is an increase in child abuse reported to the police - but it's not clear if it's due to an increase in child abuse... or, as the British government claims, due to people feeling more empowered to come forward. If anything, people feeling empowered to come forward is a GOOD thing. If Muslims somehow manage to empower people to complain about child abuse, ALLAHU AQBAR.


Should I go on?

Well, ignoring that you're wrong here, let's run with it.

We've seen repeated attempts from the establishment to avoid coming across inconvenient information about muslims and suppress incidents.
The lack of data being collected is partially a result of that. Were it not, you should be able to find good figures on them being assimilated, right?
You're whining about a lack of hard data (despite me providing some.), well, if the people responsible for collecting the data are a part of the problem in the first place, then a shortage is to be expected. What we have are numerous incidents saying there is a culture of fear in british institutions.

Suppose if every time someone were sexually assaulted they were punished for reporting it and berated with comments about scare mongering and such, and then you come along and whine about a lack of hard data to support the idea its endemic.

Warraq

"Muslims avail themselves of the right to criticize in their frequent denunciations of Westernculture, in terms that would have been deemed racist, neocolonialist, or imperialist had a European directed them against Islam. Without criticism, Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified in its totalitarian, intolerant, paranoid past. It will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality, and truth."

Hume

"[The Koran is a] wild and absurd performance. Let us attend to his [Muhammad's] narration; and we shall soon find that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, and bigotry as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers ...."

Are you seriously accusing those two of Islamophobia too?

" If they were born here, just imprison them for terrorism.

So er you're just going to assume that every muslim is a terrorist? What logic is that?

[Ostroeuropa]

They don't respect us, there is little point. By the way, that's part of the problem. These groups are too easily provoked to violence. The presence of them has already had profound effects on our culture even as a minority. So ban them, and deport the ones who go apeshit. If they were born here, just imprison them for terrorism.

Appeasement to far-right religious fanatics is not a solution.



Well, ignoring that you're wrong here, let's run with it.

We've seen repeated attempts from the establishment to avoid coming across inconvenient information about muslims and suppress incidents.
The lack of data being collected is partially a result of that. Were it not, you should be able to find good figures on them being assimilated, right?
You're whining about a lack of hard data (despite me providing some.), well, if the people responsible for collecting the data are a part of the problem in the first place, then a shortage is to be expected. What we have are numerous incidents saying there is a culture of fear in british institutions.

Suppose if every time someone were sexually assaulted they were punished for reporting it and berated with comments about scare mongering and such, and then you come along and whine about a lack of hard data to support the idea its endemic.

Warraq


Hume


Are you seriously accusing those two of Islamophobia too?

" If they were born here, just imprison them for terrorism.

So er you're just going to assume that every muslim is a terrorist? What logic is that?

If they use violence to protest a political change, they are terrorists.

the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

[USHALLNOTPASS]

"These groups are too easily provoked to violence. The presence of them has already had profound effects on our culture even as a minority."

Stereotyping much? I mean some Christens can be easily provoked, so why not ban them too?

[Allanea]

I don't think assimilation is a worthy goal, nor can it be measured.

If there was a massive spike of crime (like the Eurabia propagandists have claimed for 45 years since the term has been introduced), we would know. If there were a massive spike of terrorism, we would know. If there were an economic collapse, we would know.

But there is not such a spike in crime, there is not a spike of terrorism, the European economy is better off than it was before the Eurabia propagandists started whining - and they started whining decades and years before the current crisis began.

I do not believe that people should be let into a country based on "whether they can assimilate", because assimilation is so nebulous it can be a source for endlessly shifting goalposts. In every quantifiable way, there is no detectable major problem with the immigrants whiich is worth letting thousands of people drown in the sea or get killed in Lybia and Syria and Afghanistan over.

So ignoring the point then.

And by assimilation, I mean have it so they are capable of co-existing with our fundamental values as a society, free speech, gender equality, etc.

How do you measure a "capability to coexist"?

Millions of Muslims have been living in Europe for years and years now, where is all the violence and censorship I have been promised? I have been promised a Muslim Zombie Apocalypse. Where is it?

[Ostroeuropa]

"These groups are too easily provoked to violence. The presence of them has already had profound effects on our culture even as a minority."

Stereotyping much? I mean some Christens can be easily provoked, so why not ban them too?

As a culture we've been actively mocking and shitting on Christianity for a while now.
Some of them go apeshit, but not for merely going about our daily lives and mocking them. Not usually, not in large numbers.

Meanwhile, a guy draws a mohammed cartoon, and what happens?
Hundreds, Thousands out protesting, and dozens going on killing sprees.
Each time there is an incident.

Think about that.
Think about if every time there was a joke about christians or jesus or the pope or whatever, there were mass protests and bombs going off.

One of the main reasons we don't see more violent muslims is that our institutions have caved into their bitching and complaining about being offended and their feelings out of fear.
To avoid violence and terrorism, as well as the incessant shriek of racism and islamophobia, we've pedestalized their religion. The Islamization of other areas of life also follows this policy of capitulation.

The mere presence of EVEN A MINORITY has terrorized our culture into submission, the basis of their entire ethos and worldview is domination. (Fuck, the word Islam itself means submission.)

We cannot tolerate these people being here, and certainly not in larger numbers.

Much of their religion is explicitly based on dominance and being treated better than everybody else. Entitlement and violence when your entitled attitude isn't met is the bedrock of much of their theology.

"[The Koran is a] wild and absurd performance. Let us attend to his [Muhammad's] narration; and we shall soon find that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, and bigotry as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers ...."

Not all cultures are equal. There is no one path to memetic viability.

How do you measure a "capability to coexist"?

Millions of Muslims have been living in Europe for years and years now, where is all the violence and censorship I have been promised? I have been promised a Muslim Zombie Apocalypse. Where is it?

The censorship has been extensively documented, and in part is a result of the violence.

[Allanea]

Hundreds, Thousands out protesting, and dozens going on killing sprees.

Dozens of Muslims in Europe go on killing sprees each time there's a Muhammad Cartoon published?

The total amount of people who carried out any murders, including attempted murders, related to any kind of Islamic cartoons in Europe is three murderers, and they've killed eleven people.

Protesting against people you disagree with is.... yes, wait for it, free speech!

[USHALLNOTPASS]

Hundreds, Thousands out protesting, and dozens going on killing sprees.

Dozens of Muslims in Europe go on killing sprees each time there's a Muhammad Cartoon published?

The total amount of people who carried out any murders, including attempted murders, related to any kind of Islamic cartoons in Europe is three murderers, and they've killed eleven people.

Protesting against people you disagree with is.... yes, wait for it, free speech!

BURN THE WITCH

[Zoice]

I don't think assimilation is a worthy goal, nor can it be measured.

If there was a massive spike of crime (like the Eurabia propagandists have claimed for 45 years since the term has been introduced), we would know. If there were a massive spike of terrorism, we would know. If there were an economic collapse, we would know.

But there is not such a spike in crime, there is not a spike of terrorism, the European economy is better off than it was before the Eurabia propagandists started whining - and they started whining decades and years before the current crisis began.

I do not believe that people should be let into a country based on "whether they can assimilate", because assimilation is so nebulous it can be a source for endlessly shifting goalposts. In every quantifiable way, there is no detectable major problem with the immigrants whiich is worth letting thousands of people drown in the sea or get killed in Lybia and Syria and Afghanistan over.

So ignoring the point then.

And by assimilation, I mean have it so they are capable of co-existing with our fundamental values as a society, free speech, gender equality, etc.

Of course it can exist. Take a look at Iran before the revilution, those existed just fine there. We're seeing an upswell of fundamentalism but that doesn't mean that the culture is incompatible. There are plenty of Muslims that are westerners with western values,not to mention that really the people you're hurting by banning Muslim immigration is the Muslims themselves, by forcing the moderates to live with the crazies, and not letting the children of the crazies escape from that life.

[Gravlen]

Haha, c'mon, thats not the point I'm trying to get across.

Britain has taken a small sliver of Syrian refugees, whereas Germany has been burdened. Do you see what I'm getting at? Britain shouldn't have to accept more than it can take, but they have effectively closed their doors to most applicants, leaving the burden on a select few countries.

Germanies unilateral action in this matter is what caused this problem in the first place.
If they act alone and then demand solidarity to deal with their own fuck up, why should we listen?

Had they acted united with the rest of Europe, i'd agree with you.
They stepped out of line and are now demanding we deal with it. Why should we.

What "unilateral action" did Germany take?

[Gravlen]

Sure, Merkel fucked up, as did the rest of the Bundestag. However, I say this as a humanitarian and Christian both, its morally wrong to deny entry to thousands of those in need while simultaneously letting the German citizens(who are just as pissed at Merkel) deal with more than their infrastructure and social structure can handle.

Syrians aren't a bunch of hot potatoes to be passed around, not a statistic to be carefully looked at. They're people, and while many are fundamentalist and barely educated, many are middle class families that could be of benefit to the stagnating European economies. Its common sense, and I dislike the notion that Syrians are a class of people that are to be "dealt with."

Our infrastructure and social structure is already pushed to breaking point too, as it much of europes.
I've seen no evidence that middle class islamic families are any better.

Further, most of the migrants are not Syrians as has been repeatedly shown.
Only 1/5 of those turning up in Europe are from Syria.

Incorrect.

What has been shown is that only 1/5th of the asylum seekers in 2014 were from Syria. You're using outdated information and, well, one should not let outdated information guide public policy, eh?

So well before the start of the current "Migrant crisis" Syrians made up 20 % of the asylum seekers. Specifically, 122 790 asylum applications were lodged by Syrians in 2014, out of a total of 625 065 asylum applications.

After the "Migrant crisis" started during the summer of last year, the numbers changed. Syrians made up 29 % of the asylum seekers in 2015. That is, 362 775 applications for asylum out of a total of 1 255 640. The numbers have changed from 1/5 to 1/4 and closer to 1/3. The rate is increasing significantly as the total number of Syrian applicants remain high while the total number of applicants from Albania, Kosovo and Serbia go down. (In fact, if you really want to talk about "those turning up in Europe" and thus exclude European asylum applications, Syrians will make up 33 %)

The demographics also seem to be changing. The current arrivals in Greece include more women and children than before, as the rate of men has been reduced from 55 % to 38 %.

[Mefpan]

Germanies unilateral action in this matter is what caused this problem in the first place.
If they act alone and then demand solidarity to deal with their own fuck up, why should we listen?

Had they acted united with the rest of Europe, i'd agree with you.
They stepped out of line and are now demanding we deal with it. Why should we.

What "unilateral action" did Germany take?

We made a rough initial estimation about refugee numbers which was then portrayed as us inviting masses upon masses of foreign nationals, sometimes even described as part of some alleged conspiracy to eternally break the purity of the True Caucasian Christian European Minority, if far right propaganda is to be believed.

Something like that, at least.

[Kaiserreich2]

I have a very simple solution to this "migrant" crisis. Simply position regiments along the border give a warning to the "migrants" then open fire. There I have just solved the entire problem. If liberals question you put them in a room with these "migrants".

[Alvecia]

I have a very simple solution to this "migrant" crisis. Simply position regiments along the border give a warning to the "migrants" then open fire. There I have just solved the entire problem. If liberals question you put them in a room with these "migrants".

Mass murder is the solution to all problems *nods*

[Gravlen]

They predominantly originate from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and Eritrea. The first three are war torn countries and the last one is horrendously oppressive.

That doesn't appear to be the case.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fac ... yria/21625

Asylum seekers from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and Eritrea made up 55 % of the applicants in 2015 (695 635 applications out of 1 255 640), so what Tule says isn't wrong.

[Gravlen]

What "unilateral action" did Germany take?

We made a rough initial estimation about refugee numbers which was then portrayed as us inviting masses upon masses of foreign nationals, sometimes even described as part of some alleged conspiracy to eternally break the purity of the True Caucasian Christian European Minority, if far right propaganda is to be believed.

Something like that, at least.

Yup.

Because publishing an estimate about the exprected number of asylum seekers = inviting/importing foreigners