European Migrant Crisis Megathread

[Baltenstein]

Humans have been migrating since the beginning. From their origin in Africa they spread all over the earth. Just last week, scientists reported that DNA studies show Irish origins are as diverse as the Middle East and Russia. "DNA analysis of the Neolithic woman from Ballynahatty, near Belfast, reveals that she was most similar to modern people from Spain and Sardinia. But her ancestors ultimately came to Europe from the Middle East, where agriculture was invented.

Point is, even if these migrants came in large enough numbers to change European society, it wouldn't matter.

Humans have also fought against and killed each other since the beginning, so how is this an argument?

[Sanctissima]

Humans have been migrating since the beginning. From their origin in Africa they spread all over the earth. Just last week, scientists reported that DNA studies show Irish origins are as diverse as the Middle East and Russia. "DNA analysis of the Neolithic woman from Ballynahatty, near Belfast, reveals that she was most similar to modern people from Spain and Sardinia. But her ancestors ultimately came to Europe from the Middle East, where agriculture was invented.

Point is, even if these migrants came in large enough numbers to change European society, it wouldn't matter.

Humans have also fought against and killed each other since the beginning, so how is this an argument?

Because it means there's a bit less "genetic purity" than some might otherwise claim.

[Baltenstein]

Humans have also fought against and killed each other since the beginning, so how is this an argument?

Because it means there's a bit less "genetic purity" than some might otherwise claim.

He's not talking about European genetics though, but European society, which matters quite a bit to a lot of people.

[Aelex]

Because it means there's a bit less "genetic purity" than some might otherwise claim.

The fact that three, four millenary old, corpses seem to share a somewhat common genotype with people from Middle East of the same period isn't really that much of a "proof" of anything, really.
Moreover, don't take it bad but I have an hard time understanding how exactly would this constitute an argument for allowing migrants to come here nowadays, anyway.

[Sanctissima]

Because it means there's a bit less "genetic purity" than some might otherwise claim.

He's not talking about European genetics though, but European society, which matters quite a bit to a lot of people.

Eh, I don't know if one could really make a claim as to the existence of a European society. There's certainly European societies, but as a singular entity, its mostly an artificial construct of the past couple of decades. At any rate, I don't see how a comparatively small influx of non-Europeans could cause any great change.

[Aelex]

Eh, I don't know if one could really make a claim as to the existence of a European society. There's certainly European societies, but as a singular entity, its mostly an artificial construct of the past couple of decades. At any rate, I don't see how a comparatively small influx of non-Europeans could cause any great change.

Well, there do is an European "society", at least in a cultural sense, which is more or less built around the cultures of France, Italy, Germany and the U.K; each of them having more or less stole/copied from one another at sometime making them if not alike, at least somewhat similar.
Now, I would say that the massive influx of non-Europeans can indeed be damaging for the European's "Culture" because of a couple of factors the most prevalents ones being multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

[Geilinor]

Eh, I don't know if one could really make a claim as to the existence of a European society. There's certainly European societies, but as a singular entity, its mostly an artificial construct of the past couple of decades. At any rate, I don't see how a comparatively small influx of non-Europeans could cause any great change.

Well, there do is an European "society", at least in a cultural sense, which is more or less built around the cultures of France, Italy, Germany and the U.K; each of them having more or less stole/copied from one another at sometime making them if not alike, at least somewhat similar.
Now, I would say that the massive influx of non-Europeans can indeed be damaging for the European's "Culture" because of a couple of factors the most prevalents ones being multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

French, Italian, German, and British culture are not alike - they're only slightly, superficially similar. And you realize that a few million is nothing compared to the population of Europe?

[Sanctissima]

Eh, I don't know if one could really make a claim as to the existence of a European society. There's certainly European societies, but as a singular entity, its mostly an artificial construct of the past couple of decades. At any rate, I don't see how a comparatively small influx of non-Europeans could cause any great change.

Well, there do is an European "society", at least in a cultural sense, which is more or less built around the cultures of France, Italy, Germany and the U.K; each of them having more or less stole/copied from one another at sometime making them if not alike, at least somewhat similar.
Now, I would say that the massive influx of non-Europeans can indeed be damaging for the European's "Culture" because of a couple of factors the most prevalents ones being multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

Yes, but the question is exactly how damaging it would be. The current influx of refugees into Europe doesn't even raise the total population by 1%. Such a small and spread-out demographic, even with multiculturalism and other factors taken into account, couldn't pose a veritable threat.

[Aelex]

French, Italian, German, and British culture are not alike - they're only slightly, superficially similar. And you realize that a few million is nothing compared to the population of Europe?

I never said that they were alike. What I said is that century of sharing common values and symbols as well as reciprocally influencing each others was enough for them to form a somewhat coherent entity that we call "Western Culture".
And yes, millions of people flooding into countries who make no effort to preserve their own cultures may indeed damages them, especially if the said countries are actually endorsing communitarian and self-segregating trends among the migrants.

[Aelex]

Yes, but the question is exactly how damaging it would be. The current influx of refugees into Europe doesn't even raise the total population by 1%. Such a small and spread-out demographic, even with multiculturalism and other factors taken into account, couldn't pose a veritable threat.

A threat? No, indeed. European Culture isn't, because of the very presence of the migrants, threatened to be destroyed. It could, however, be to some extent damaged which would be regrettable.
Anyway, I need to precise that it's not on the Cultural grounds that I think we should refuse migrants. There are a lot of others, betters, reasons than this one.

[The Nuclear Fist]

He's not talking about European genetics though, but European society, which matters quite a bit to a lot of people.

Eh, I don't know if one could really make a claim as to the existence of a European society. There's certainly European societies, but as a singular entity, its mostly an artificial construct of the past couple of decades. At any rate, I don't see how a comparatively small influx of non-Europeans could cause any great change.

That might be true if they were spreading out equally across the entirety of Europe, but mostly they're congregating in ghettos in the wealthiest of the western nations. When your entire community is backwards reactionaries and religious fundamentalists, it makes it difficult to integrate.

[Sanctissima]

Eh, I don't know if one could really make a claim as to the existence of a European society. There's certainly European societies, but as a singular entity, its mostly an artificial construct of the past couple of decades. At any rate, I don't see how a comparatively small influx of non-Europeans could cause any great change.

That might be true if they were spreading out equally across the entirety of Europe, but mostly they're congregating in ghettos in the wealthiest of the western nations. When your entire community is backwards reactionaries and religious fundamentalists, it makes it difficult to integrate.

Eh, fair enough.

[Ghatawerpya]

French, Italian, German, and British culture are not alike - they're only slightly, superficially similar. And you realize that a few million is nothing compared to the population of Europe?

I never said that they were alike. What I said is that century of sharing common values and symbols as well as reciprocally influencing each others was enough for them to form a somewhat coherent entity that we call "Western Culture".
And yes, millions of people flooding into countries who make no effort to preserve their own cultures may indeed damages them, especially if the said countries are actually endorsing communitarian and self-segregating trends among the migrants.

How does the self-segregation of immigrant minorities harm the culture of the nation they live in? Unless these minorities are large enough to wipe out or assimilate their hosts it seems unlikely. Foreign minorities refusing to integrate is a social problem for Europe, but don't exaggerate the situation as if European culture is in any danger.

Also I believe the meaning of the word "communitarian" in French is not the same as it is in English.

[Baltenstein]

I never said that they were alike. What I said is that century of sharing common values and symbols as well as reciprocally influencing each others was enough for them to form a somewhat coherent entity that we call "Western Culture".
And yes, millions of people flooding into countries who make no effort to preserve their own cultures may indeed damages them, especially if the said countries are actually endorsing communitarian and self-segregating trends among the migrants.

How does the self-segregation of immigrant minorities harm the culture of the nation they live in? Unless these minorities are large enough to wipe out or assimilate their hosts it seems unlikely. Foreign minorities refusing to integrate is a social problem for Europe, but don't exaggerate the situation as if European culture is at stake.

Muslim immigrant majority classes are already a reality in most large German cities (and I assume, the same is true for France and Britain as well). The only "integration" happening there is people accomodating to their reactionary and in some cases disgusting sensibilities.

[Kubra]

Yes, but the question is exactly how damaging it would be. The current influx of refugees into Europe doesn't even raise the total population by 1%. Such a small and spread-out demographic, even with multiculturalism and other factors taken into account, couldn't pose a veritable threat.

A threat? No, indeed. European Culture isn't, because of the very presence of the migrants, threatened to be destroyed. It could, however, be to some extent damaged which would be regrettable.
Anyway, I need to precise that it's not on the Cultural grounds that I think we should refuse migrants. There are a lot of others, betters, reasons than this one.

what's wrong with damaging european culture? It's got some shit that could use damaging. Poles weren't exactly the most liberal of euros, but you raise em up right and they'll fight in the Grande Armée, and that's pretty nifty.

[Baltenstein]

A threat? No, indeed. European Culture isn't, because of the very presence of the migrants, threatened to be destroyed. It could, however, be to some extent damaged which would be regrettable.
Anyway, I need to precise that it's not on the Cultural grounds that I think we should refuse migrants. There are a lot of others, betters, reasons than this one.

what's wrong with damaging european culture? It's got some shit that could use damaging. Poles weren't exactly the most liberal of euros, but you raise em up right and they'll fight in the Grande Armée, and that's pretty nifty.

Hooray for the glorious return of violent antisemitism, gender segregation, religious censorship, clan tribalism etc. etc. Europe just hasn't been the same without those things.

[The balkens]

what's wrong with damaging european culture? It's got some shit that could use damaging. Poles weren't exactly the most liberal of euros, but you raise em up right and they'll fight in the Grande Armée, and that's pretty nifty.

Hooray for the glorious return of violent antisemitism, gender segregation, religious censorship, clan tribalism etc. etc. Europe just hasn't been the same without those things.

Cultural enrichment you mean?

[The Nuclear Fist]

How does the self-segregation of immigrant minorities harm the culture of the nation they live in? Unless these minorities are large enough to wipe out or assimilate their hosts it seems unlikely. Foreign minorities refusing to integrate is a social problem for Europe, but don't exaggerate the situation as if European culture is at stake.

Muslim immigrant majority classes are already a reality in most large German cities (and I assume, the same is true for France and Britain as well). The only "integration" happening there is people accomodating to their reactionary and in some cases disgusting sensibilities.

Tbh the problem could be solved by immediately deporting any migrant that commits a crime, and putting in a three strikes rule for ones in mandatory integration courses. As well as not letting them decide where they go, and instead having an EU council or something spread them out as evenly as possible. If they're forced to integrate, forced to spread out, and the EU refuses to tolerate any form of criminality, they'll bleed out the chaff and keep only the wheat. Don't want to obey to law? Have fun sweltering in whatever sandbox they slithered out of. Don't want to integrate? Enjoy the culture and way of life in your homeland.

Basically if the EU had a single policy on migrants, and a sensible one at that, things would be okay.

[The Nuclear Fist]

what's wrong with damaging european culture? It's got some shit that could use damaging. Poles weren't exactly the most liberal of euros, but you raise em up right and they'll fight in the Grande Armée, and that's pretty nifty.

Hooray for the glorious return of violent antisemitism, gender segregation, religious censorship, clan tribalism etc. etc. Europe just hasn't been the same without those things.

Surely you're not suggesting that people fleeing a region of endless tribal and religious warfare, backwards religious fundamentalism, and reactionary medieval worldviews might clash somewhat with the relatively more egalitarian West, are you? Because that's racist. Obviously.

[The balkens]

Hooray for the glorious return of violent antisemitism, gender segregation, religious censorship, clan tribalism etc. etc. Europe just hasn't been the same without those things.

Surely you're not suggesting that people fleeing a region of endless tribal and religious warfare, backwards religious fundamentalism, and reactionary medieval worldviews might clash somewhat with the relatively more egalitarian West, are you? Because that's racist. Obviously.

And somehow non-European.

[Kubra]

what's wrong with damaging european culture? It's got some shit that could use damaging. Poles weren't exactly the most liberal of euros, but you raise em up right and they'll fight in the Grande Armée, and that's pretty nifty.

Hooray for the glorious return of violent antisemitism, gender segregation, religious censorship, clan tribalism etc. etc. Europe just hasn't been the same without those things.

Growing pains, growing pains. Integrating the various territories into the french empire was no easy process, and an abortive one at that. We cannot say it was the final victory of liberalism. But it really did spread ideas of such, and migrants have no choice but to be in some ways forcefully exposed to such. A couple generations down, ethno-cultural boundaries start blurring. Maybe not eradicated outright, but blurred. As always, the dominant culture is the one that comes out on top, and you're left with the brownest of brown folks voting for La Pen.
You're thinking short term, while demographics is a long war.

[Saiwania]

Muslim immigrant majority classes are already a reality in most large German cities (and I assume, the same is true for France and Britain as well). The only "integration" happening there is people accommodating to their reactionary and in some cases disgusting sensibilities.

I've kept telling people that this is all the more reason to keep these people out of Europe but they don't listen and are surprised that the outcome isn't what they wanted. Well Europe deserves what they voted for. They elected in governments which don't care and will never stop the flow of people coming in. The only solution is the far right.

[Ghatawerpya]

How does the self-segregation of immigrant minorities harm the culture of the nation they live in? Unless these minorities are large enough to wipe out or assimilate their hosts it seems unlikely. Foreign minorities refusing to integrate is a social problem for Europe, but don't exaggerate the situation as if European culture is at stake.

Muslim immigrant majority classes are already a reality in most large German cities (and I assume, the same is true for France and Britain as well). The only "integration" happening there is people accomodating to their reactionary and in some cases disgusting sensibilities.

But you see that doesn't harm European culture, though it might harm integration. Until Muslims are no longer a minority in Europe the only thing they can accomplish is getting Europeans angry at their government's supposed kowtowing to Islamic traditions.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Muslim immigrant majority classes are already a reality in most large German cities (and I assume, the same is true for France and Britain as well). The only "integration" happening there is people accomodating to their reactionary and in some cases disgusting sensibilities.

But you see that doesn't harm European culture, though it might harm integration. Until Muslims are no longer a minority in Europe the only thing they can accomplish is getting Europeans angry at their government's supposed kowtowing to Islamic traditions.

I'd imagine rampant antisemitism amongst muslim migrants might do some harm to European jews.

[The balkens]

Muslim immigrant majority classes are already a reality in most large German cities (and I assume, the same is true for France and Britain as well). The only "integration" happening there is people accomodating to their reactionary and in some cases disgusting sensibilities.

But you see that doesn't harm European culture, though it might harm integration. Until Muslims are no longer a minority in Europe the only thing they can accomplish is getting Europeans angry at their government's supposed kowtowing to Islamic traditions.

if a Holocaust survivor is in fear of his/her own life due to the present situation, then something is clearly wrong.

what are we going to do, call the Holocaust Victims racists?