European Migrant Crisis Megathread

[Grave_n_idle]

Who exactly is being 'swamped' by whom?

The proportion of these incoming settlers from beyond Europe is minor. We're being 'swamped' in the same way that one tomato is 'swamping' your salad.

The problem with the anti-integration platform is that it has to be argued in emotional terms. It's always 'swarms' and 'swamping' and 'invasions'.

Fair enough. I'll tone down the language. The thing is more over distribution. Take Germany. It's non-European population is about 2.5%. That's small. But it's expecting non European 600,000 migrants this year alone. That's about 0.94 of a percentage. But over the years, that adds up.

And it's worse in the smaller, less populated Scandinavian countries.

But look at the UK - we're talking about the immigrant population, but the simple truth is that 10% of our population... don't even live 'here'. One in TEN of us live somewhere else. How worrying can a percentage point of immigration really be - especially if we're so poorly connected to our territoriality that even WE don't really want to live here?

The beyond-Europe population is tiny, and it's increasing slowly. There's really no point worrying about a demographic trend that's going to take two generations to test.

[Nerotysia]

Other then the political tension and economic problems that entails.

Political tensions? Political tensions can come from anything. Economically, immigration either doesn't have an effect or has a small positive effect. And even in the few (I've only seen one) studies that do indicate that immigration is bad for the economy, the extent of the damage is minimal.

An overview: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... migration/

From within the article:
http://www.popline.org/node/278861
http://www.nber.org/papers/w16439#fromrss
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3KABal ... edit?pli=1
http://epi.3cdn.net/7de74ee0cd834d87d4_ ... df#page=12

And there's the famous Mariel Boatlift study: http://www.nber.org/papers/w3069.pdf?new_window=1

No, certainly not everyone is the best and brightest. But it's fair to assume that the best and brightest wouldn't mainly still be in the country. After all, they'd have the money and contacts to help them out, which many poorer one wouldn't have.

That's true. But you won't get stability via a massive brain drain of a third of the population of the country.

Why would you assume this? Maybe the richest have enough money to protect themselves from the instability. Assumptions aren't really worth much.

[Novus America]

Well killing ISIS is not easy. ISIS did not just appear. It was a the result of the problems in the region. Besides just as many people are fleeing Assad. And Europe has no fight in it. Sure make Syria into a nice place and no more Syrians want to leave. But that is easier said than done.

But the effort would be less costly in the long run than letting the amount of refugees grow and let the ultranationalisms fester.

Perhaps. But Europe is too weak willed. It is a pipe dream to think Europe would sucessfully fix Syria.

It is simply not going to happen.

[Grave_n_idle]

That's a subjective view, though, isn't it? The tiger thinks the tiger is pretty good. It's prey is less convinced.

Of course, in this discussion, I'd say the 'predatory monster' was the xenophobic militancy growing in the west, rather than the gentle spread of predominantly moderate settlers from beyond Europe.

Of course it is subjective. There is nothing wrong with that.

But yeah, to a mouse a house cat is a horrific monster. But can one blame the mouse for not wanting to be tortured to death just for the lols?

I don't blame that mouse. Then again, that mouse is actually a considerably bigger cat. Not a mouse.

So while I don't blame the mouse, I also have no sympathy for it's ridiculous hysteria.

[Talvezout]

I agree with this, although I do kinda disagree with the part on about support.

That being said, when this does end, let's hope we don't eff it up a 3rd time.

Which is why I suggested sending back relevant experts. To help with training and maintaining stability in the infancy of the recovery.

I mean that I disagree that Europe can't support the migrants, but still, fair point.

Night.

[Arkinesia]

But it won't happen. Europeans are too proud of shit they did 500+ years ago to try to catch up to the rest of us. Not to mention too xenophobic.

Best solution for everyone:

Send ALL the migrants to the U.S., who are clearly much better suited to integrate them then the racist, cowardly Europeans, and generally have much more relaxed, rational feeling about Islam in general.

Yay?

Sounds great, I love becoming more prosperous off the failures of the inferior.

And here I thought such cowardly, narrow-minded notions were only popular among Europeans.

So opposing open borders is cowardly and narrow minded? Well then yes, most Americans oppose open borders.

And we have a complex legal system which chooses who gets in and who does not.

Over 150 million want to migrate to the US. We let in about 1 million. So only 1 out of over 150 get chosen each year.

We could just let in all 150 million. We only choose a select few.

That the US doesn't have a modern open borders policy is embarrassing. Visas, work permits, etc. are for backwater third-world countries. The only person who should be telling me where to work is a communist.

Want to run a background check on entrants? Perfectly reasonable. You need to complete a background check to rent an apartment, for christ's sake. But what purpose does questioning legitimate, law-abiding persons serve other than as a measure of control?

[Novus America]

Best solution for everyone:

Send ALL the migrants to the U.S., who are clearly much better suited to integrate them then the racist, cowardly Europeans, and generally have much more relaxed, rational feeling about Islam in general.

Yay?

Sounds great, I love becoming more prosperous off the failures of the inferior.

So opposing open borders is cowardly and narrow minded? Well then yes, most Americans oppose open borders.

And we have a complex legal system which chooses who gets in and who does not.

Over 150 million want to migrate to the US. We let in about 1 million. So only 1 out of over 150 get chosen each year.

We could just let in all 150 million. We only choose a select few.

That the US doesn't have a modern open borders policy is embarrassing. Visas, work permits, etc. are for backwater third-world countries. The only person who should be telling me where to work is a communist.

Want to run a background check on entrants? Perfectly reasonable. You need to complete a background check to rent an apartment, for christ's sake. But what purpose does questioning legitimate, law-abiding persons serve other than as a measure of control?

No country has purely open borders. Not even Europe. The open borders extend only to certain countries. Europe still has a border.

We should have an open border with Canada. But that is it for now. Mexico still needs a lot of work.

Umm, we do not have the infrastructure or ability to accommodate over 150 million more people. Hence why immigration is controlled. It is necessary and practical to control it.

Where would we house them? Educate them? Provide them with electricity? Water? Sewage? Food? Medical care? Immigration can benefit the ecnomy in the long term, but it costs a lot as well.

Seriously?! You want over 150 million new arrivals overnight?

We can afford 1 million a year. Perhaps more. Not over 150 million.

[Eol Sha]

I personally revel in destroying Europe. It just makes the US stronger. *maniacal laughter*

[Geilinor]

Seriously?! You want over 150 million new arrivals overnight?

We can afford 1 million a year. Perhaps more. Not over 150 million.

It isn't going to happen overnight or in a year.

[Novus America]

Of course it is subjective. There is nothing wrong with that.

But yeah, to a mouse a house cat is a horrific monster. But can one blame the mouse for not wanting to be tortured to death just for the lols?

I don't blame that mouse. Then again, that mouse is actually a considerably bigger cat. Not a mouse.

So while I don't blame the mouse, I also have no sympathy for it's ridiculous hysteria.

I agree this has been blown out of proportion. But we still need to keep Salafis out. They are dangerous.

[Novus America]

Seriously?! You want over 150 million new arrivals overnight?

We can afford 1 million a year. Perhaps more. Not over 150 million.

It isn't going to happen overnight or in a year.

Yes because we only let in 1 million.
Because we have controlled borders. We could not afford a completely open border. We would be swamped with millions of of arrivals within days.

Controlled immigration is reasonable. 1 million is reasonable. Not 150 million. So you have to choose who the million a year will be. Simple.

[Afallyd]

I don't blame that mouse. Then again, that mouse is actually a considerably bigger cat. Not a mouse.

So while I don't blame the mouse, I also have no sympathy for it's ridiculous hysteria.

I agree this has been blown out of proportion. But we still need to keep Salafis out. They are dangerous.

That awkward moment when that's the religious doctrine of Saudi Arabia.

[Jochistan]

I agree this has been blown out of proportion. But we still need to keep Salafis out. They are dangerous.

That awkward moment when that's the religious doctrine of Saudi Arabia.

Yeah. It might sully relationships with them. But hey. You just want to let them fuck shit up?

[Eol Sha]

I agree this has been blown out of proportion. But we still need to keep Salafis out. They are dangerous.

That awkward moment when that's the religious doctrine of Saudi Arabia.

"Saudi Arabia, did you decapitate another Shiite?"
"Uh...of course not, Mom."
"Don't you lie to me young man. I saw you and your friends lobbing missiles at Mr. Sana'a's garage yesterday."

*sitcom laughter*

[Geilinor]

It isn't going to happen overnight or in a year.

Yes because we only let in 1 million.
Because we have controlled borders. We could not afford a completely open border. We would be swamped with millions of of arrivals within days.

Controlled immigration is reasonable. 1 million is reasonable. Not 150 million. So you have to choose who the million a year will be. Simple.

Is there evidence that we would be swamped in days?

[Novus America]

Yes because we only let in 1 million.
Because we have controlled borders. We could not afford a completely open border. We would be swamped with millions of of arrivals within days.

Controlled immigration is reasonable. 1 million is reasonable. Not 150 million. So you have to choose who the million a year will be. Simple.

Is there evidence that we would be swamped in days?

Umm, at least 150 million want to come now. That is a lot of people. How many can we take in a year? Not 150 million. Not 50 million. Not sure what the max we could realistically let in is. Maybe 2 million? Even at 5 million it would take over 30 years, so you would have to choose who came each year. But I doubt we could support 5 million a year.

Again the have to be fed, housed, educated. And what about water? Electricity? Sewage? We would have to be building several nuclear reactors every year. Increase our sewage treatment plants, build desalinization plants, build many schools, literally millions of houses a year.

We cannot afford that.

[Novus America]

I agree this has been blown out of proportion. But we still need to keep Salafis out. They are dangerous.

That awkward moment when that's the religious doctrine of Saudi Arabia.

Umm Saudis did 9-11. And it is one horrible place. Nobody likes them. We tolerate them out of realpolitik. We do not want their shit here.

Yeah, Saudi Arabia is much of the problem. But what can we do about it? We cannot do a regime change, and that failed miserably in Iraq.

[Arkinesia]

No country has purely open borders. Not even Europe. The open borders extend only to certain countries. Europe still has a border.

We should have an open border with Canada. But that is it for now. Mexico still needs a lot of work.

Umm, we do not have the infrastructure or ability to accommodate over 150 million more people. Hence why immigration is controlled. It is necessary and practical to control it.

Where would we house them? Educate them? Provide them with electricity? Water? Sewage? Food? Medical care? Immigration can benefit the ecnomy in the long term, but it costs a lot as well.

Seriously?! You want over 150 million new arrivals overnight?

We can afford 1 million a year. Perhaps more. Not over 150 million.

Yes, everyone is suggesting 150 million people should come in, because that is so likely to happen!

Do you realize that such absurd arguments do nothing to further your position, and simply retrench open borders advocates like myself? Besides, you're wrong on basically every count here. First of all, when you factor in illegal immigration (yet another case of government inventing a crisis to validate increasing taxes and gaining more control over the public, for the record) you get roughly 1.5 million entrants to the US every year. If this is really so clear-cut as you say, how is it that there aren't 20 million illegal entrants? 50 million?

As far as housing, I guess you missed the part where there are literally thousands of houses across the country sitting in escrow or foreclosure selling for a fraction of their original value. Education is no problem. I mean do you have any idea as to how our system expands to fit new births? Do you think the process is different for new immigrants?

This country has adapted to more rapid influxes of immigrants than we have now, back when we had less technology and less capacity to bring immigrants in. Are you going to keep regurgitating these overdone nativist talking points, which have been debunked into oblivion by much more educated people than us already, or are you going to try an actual, functional method of argumentation?

[Havenburgh]

Its not the immigrants themselves that bring the problems, but rather their religious beliefs. Same thing with christianity who is anti abortion and anti Gay marriage. If you subtract religion entirely out of the equation, you will notice 90% of the problems disappear.

[Trotskylvania]

I keep reading the thread title as "It's time for leftists to wake up and destroy Europe."

Clearly a Freudian slip on my part.

[Arkinesia]

Umm Saudis did 9-11.

Oh my god, Bin Laden's plan worked, just on the wrong person.

[Havenburgh]

Also, its not peft wing destroying Europe, its Capitalist greed. You can see a extremist version of it in the United States of America. Of course there is a thing as having too much open border. If you want to do complete open borders, the whole world needs to do it, not one nation. Sweeden made that mistake sadly.

[The Isolationist State Of Islam]

Yes, because promoting equality, and freedom is the worst thing that has ever happened to the world. I cannot think of one time that xenophobia, and racism has lead to war. In fact! I cannot think of one time an incredibly racist xenophobe destroyed Europe! We should make these people go back to their countries, and die, its the only thing they're good for! Trip them on the way too, that'll really show them how we're better.

[Havenburgh]

Yes, because promoting equality, and freedom is the worst thing that has ever happened to the world. I cannot think of one time that xenophobia, and racism has lead to war. In fact! I cannot think of one time an incredibly racist xenophobe destroyed Europe! We should make these people go back to their countries, and die, its the only thing they're good for! Trip them on the way too, that'll really show them how we're better.

*beep beep*
Damn the sarcasm radar is off the charts!!!

[The Isolationist State Of Islam]

Yes, because promoting equality, and freedom is the worst thing that has ever happened to the world. I cannot think of one time that xenophobia, and racism has lead to war. In fact! I cannot think of one time an incredibly racist xenophobe destroyed Europe! We should make these people go back to their countries, and die, its the only thing they're good for! Trip them on the way too, that'll really show them how we're better.

*beep beep*
Damn the sarcasm radar is off the charts!!!

Sarcasm is a great way to get your point across