The NS Mens Rights Thread

[MisandristMantis]

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

Because with such things as unfair child custody, the growing gender gap in college enrollment, female rapists getting little to no jail time, and among other things, there needs to be a discussion of men's issues.

What rights do men not have that you believe cause this? What missing rights would fix these issues for you?

[Kincoboh]

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

Because with such things as unfair child custody, the growing gender gap in college enrollment, female rapists getting little to no jail time, and among other things, there needs to be a discussion of men's issues.

So, you're saying that male feminists don't care about men's issues?

[Kelinfort]

Because with such things as unfair child custody, the growing gender gap in college enrollment, female rapists getting little to no jail time, and among other things, there needs to be a discussion of men's issues.

What rights do men not have that you believe cause this? What missing rights would fix these issues for you?

Changing social perception of women as weak and men as strong, emotionless leaders, while ending toxic traditionalism would help.

Although I don't think that's a right.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because with such things as unfair child custody, the growing gender gap in college enrollment, female rapists getting little to no jail time, and among other things, there needs to be a discussion of men's issues.

What rights do men not have that you believe cause this? What missing rights would fix these issues for you?

The movement deals with mens rights both in terms of legal rights we do not have:
(Not to be drafted, bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)
And in the enforcement of rights we DO have.

Just because you have rights in law doesn't mean they are recognized.
Mens rights are frequently violated.

The college enrollment one is a result of institutional sexism against men in schools and universities.
The rapists one is because of institutional sexism in the court system.
The child custody one is also that, but also a case of mens demoralization by propoganda about their parenting abilities.

There's a number of issues that need to be discussed and dealt with regarding sexism against men.

[Hirota]

I'm confused as to what rights women have that men don't.

Lower Jail sentencing (US, Australia, UK)

Women have the right to not be assumed sexual predators (1)

Women have the right to government-enforced gender quotas (Norway, Europe)

Women have the right to exclusive tax benefits for being a business owner (USA, Australia)

Women have the right to not be assumed the primary aggressor in a domestic dispute (US, UK)

Gential integrity (US)

Teenage girls can be immune to prosecution for under-age sex. (Ireland) - although in some countries both parties are immune under "Romeo & Juliet" exemptions.

Also, how does the MRA movement feel about trans men? Or men of color?

All the evidence I have seen suggests the MRM broadly supports universal equal rights independent of gender, ethnicity, gender assignment and sexual orientation.

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

The two are not mutually exclusive - someone can recognise inequalities for both men and women at the same time. However, some feminists may sometimes speak or act in ways which appear to promote the inequality of men, boys, and their children.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because with such things as unfair child custody, the growing gender gap in college enrollment, female rapists getting little to no jail time, and among other things, there needs to be a discussion of men's issues.

So, you're saying that male feminists don't care about men's issues?

I've seen zero evidence they do. I've seen them assert that they do.

[MisandristMantis]

What rights do men not have that you believe cause this? What missing rights would fix these issues for you?

The movement deals with mens rights both in terms of legal rights we do not have:
(Not to be drafted, bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)
And in the enforcement of rights we DO have.

Just because you have rights in law doesn't mean they are recognized.
Mens rights are frequently violated.

The college enrollment one is a result of institutional sexism against men in schools and universities.
The rapists one is because of institutional sexism in the court system.
The child custody one is also that, but also a case of mens demoralization by propoganda about their parenting abilities.

There's a number of issues that need to be discussed and dealt with regarding sexism against men.

It sounds like you are not advocating a mens rights movement. Because you don't seem to believe that men are lacking in any rights.

It sounds like you mostly want to change how people feel about men. Is that right?

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm confused as to what rights women have that men don't. Also, how does the MRA movement feel about trans men? Or men of color?

Transmen are men. the movement is pro-trans, for the most part, there are always outliers. They are usually scolded and such.

We deal with issues that effect men of color regularly. It's clear you've fallen for the propoganda about our movement.

Would it surprise you to know that according to our demographic polls, 20% of the movement is LGBT?

As for what rights women have that men don't, bodily autonomy for one. (Circumcision and the draft.)

Equality before the law. (Women are jailed for much less time, and are less likely to be prosecuted in the first place.)

Free expression and such. (Men are much more heavily gender policed than women.)

There's loads of mens issues.
Mens rights isn't just the demand for new rights, it's the assertion of old ones.

[Ostroeuropa]

The movement deals with mens rights both in terms of legal rights we do not have:
(Not to be drafted, bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)
And in the enforcement of rights we DO have.

Just because you have rights in law doesn't mean they are recognized.
Mens rights are frequently violated.

The college enrollment one is a result of institutional sexism against men in schools and universities.
The rapists one is because of institutional sexism in the court system.
The child custody one is also that, but also a case of mens demoralization by propoganda about their parenting abilities.

There's a number of issues that need to be discussed and dealt with regarding sexism against men.

It sounds like you are not advocating a mens rights movement. Because you don't seem to believe that men are lacking in any rights.

It sounds like you mostly want to change how people feel about men. Is that right?

That's part of it yes. But it's also about getting people to recognize that our rights are being violated, as well as demanding equal rights with women. (Specifically on bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)

There's also dealing with institutional sexism against men.
It also deals with women displaying sexism against men. (And men displaying sexism against men.)

[Kincoboh]

So, you're saying that male feminists don't care about men's issues?

I've seen zero evidence they do. I've seen them assert that they do.

Alas, likewise, I've seen no evidence that the MRA movement is anything more than reactionary cis white men.

[Alyakia]

I'm confused as to what rights women have that men don't.

Lower Jail sentencing (US, Australia, UK)

Women have the right to not be assumed sexual predators (1)

Women have the right to government-enforced gender quotas (Norway, Europe)

Women have the right to exclusive tax benefits for being a business owner (USA, Australia)

Women have the right to not be assumed the primary aggressor in a domestic dispute (US, UK)

Gential integrity (US)

Teenage girls can be immune to prosecution for under-age sex. (Ireland) - although in some countries both parties are immune under "Romeo & Juliet" exemptions.

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

The two are not mutually exclusive - someone can recognise inequalities for both men and women at the same time. However, some feminists may sometimes speak or act in ways which appear to promote the inequality of men, boys, and their children.

i think we seriously need to define the word "right" here

[Ostroeuropa]

I've seen zero evidence they do. I've seen them assert that they do.

Alas, likewise, I've seen no evidence that the MRA movement is anything more than reactionary cis white men.

Oh ok. Well, how about our black members?
And our trans ones...
One of them is a moderator on the reddit.
Or the women members. (You know. Like, the honey badgers.)

I guess they just don't count, right?

And how are they reactionary? Go ahead, explain.

I notice, by the way, that you use cis white men as a snarl word.
Maybe you're a bit of a bigot.

[Cannabis Islands]

I've seen zero evidence they do. I've seen them assert that they do.

Alas, likewise, I've seen no evidence that the MRA movement is anything more than reactionary cis white men.

I'm mixed race and homosexual.

[Ostroeuropa]

Alas, likewise, I've seen no evidence that the MRA movement is anything more than reactionary cis white men.

I'm mixed race and homosexual.

I don't really see the point in bothering. Anyone who throws out that kind of shit isn't prepared to be convinced.
I've said what i'd need to happen in order to believe feminists care about mens issues.
I'd need them to actually start showing me they do, instead of just telling me they do continuously, and suspiciously, only when i'm talking shit about their movement.

Almost like they care more about being perceived to care about mens issues, than actually working on mens issues.
Spooky.

Cos you know guys, if instead of constantly coming up to us who are saying "You guys don't give a shit about men" and arguing that you do, if you just, went out and did shit on mens issues, then that's, you know.

Oh who the fuck am I kidding. There's no point.

[Hirota]

i think we seriously need to define the word "right" here

I think you could make a reasonable case that some of those are privileges enjoyed by women rather than rights (and thats part of the reason why I answered Arcturus Novus rather than Mantis' similar question). It was a fairly hastily written list, and whilst some of them are legal evidence, some of them are not.

Alas, likewise, I've seen no evidence that the MRA movement is anything more than reactionary cis white men.

You want evidence that the MRM movement has more diversity than cis white men? Go look at the Honeybadgers, or Karen DeCrow. I can probably cite some others, but you actually know that.

[Kincoboh]

Alas, likewise, I've seen no evidence that the MRA movement is anything more than reactionary cis white men.

Oh ok. Well, how about our black members?
And our trans ones...
One of them is a moderator on the reddit.
Or the women members. (You know. Like, the honey badgers.)

I guess they just don't count, right?

You can be a gay black atheist republican, it doesn't mean that republicans are automatically beneficial to those groups

[MisandristMantis]

It sounds like you are not advocating a mens rights movement. Because you don't seem to believe that men are lacking in any rights.

It sounds like you mostly want to change how people feel about men. Is that right?

That's part of it yes. But it's also about getting people to recognize that our rights are being violated, as well as demanding equal rights with women. (Specifically on bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)

There's also dealing with institutional sexism against men.
It also deals with women displaying sexism against men. (And men displaying sexism against men.)

I think it's a little ironic that most of the perceived sexism you are concerned about is actually perpetuated by other men. Essentially you are trying to persuade the men in power that men don't have social power or at least not equal power.

[Ostroeuropa]

Oh ok. Well, how about our black members?
And our trans ones...
One of them is a moderator on the reddit.
Or the women members. (You know. Like, the honey badgers.)

I guess they just don't count, right?

You can be a gay black atheist republican, it doesn't mean that republicans are automatically beneficial to those groups

Yeh, because talking about the overimprisonment of men, and how men are falling behind in schools, and how men are demonized in the media, etc.
That only benefits white men.
It's not like blacks go to school or get arrested or anything. That's silly.

Incidentally, I notice that you just completely switched up your claim. Good work there, i'm sure nobody will notice you moving the goalposts to another hemisphere. It surely makes it look like you're here in good faith, and not as a bigot spouting bullshit.

[Kincoboh]

That's part of it yes. But it's also about getting people to recognize that our rights are being violated, as well as demanding equal rights with women. (Specifically on bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)

There's also dealing with institutional sexism against men.
It also deals with women displaying sexism against men. (And men displaying sexism against men.)

I think it's a little ironic that most of the perceived sexism you are concerned about is actually perpetuated by other men. Essentially you are trying to persuade the men in power that men don't have social power or at least not equal power.

Indeed! Maybe the actual problem is a disparity in power? Perhaps we should look at anarchism for an answer to gender issues. What say you about anarchism, MRAs?

[Sam Hyde]

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

[Ostroeuropa]

That's part of it yes. But it's also about getting people to recognize that our rights are being violated, as well as demanding equal rights with women. (Specifically on bodily autonomy, parental planning, etc.)

There's also dealing with institutional sexism against men.
It also deals with women displaying sexism against men. (And men displaying sexism against men.)

I think it's a little ironic that most of the perceived sexism you are concerned about is actually perpetuated by other men. Essentially you are trying to persuade the men in power that men don't have social power or at least not equal power.

Men are most of the homeless and such too. Most of the victims of violent crime. Most of the drug addicts. Most of the suicides. the list goes on.
It's also not only perpetuatd by men, but by women too.

Mens sexism against men is an expression of them being victims of sexism themselves.
Take a look at this: http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archiv ... er/275322/

There's a number of ways women perpetuate this system. Not least of them is the feminist movement and cultural gynocentricity.

[BK117B2]

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

Why be a feminist when a person could advocate for men's right instead?

Either way, they seem kind of silly. Why not be a libertarian and advocate the rights of all?

[Kincoboh]

You can be a gay black atheist republican, it doesn't mean that republicans are automatically beneficial to those groups

Yeh, because talking about the overimprisonment of men, and how men are falling behind in schools, and how men are demonized in the media, etc.
That only benefits white men.
It's not like blacks go to school or get arrested or anything. That's silly.

Incidentally, I notice that you just completely switched up your claim. Good work there, i'm sure nobody will notice you moving the goalposts to another hemisphere. It surely makes it look like you're here in good faith, and not as a bigot spouting bullshit.

Orrrr maybe it's not a male problem, but some other underlying issue? A lot of these issues you mention seem to be very U.S. focused as well. But maybe, if we're talking about prison, schools, the media, it's the overarching societal system itself? Capitalism? The state of democracy? Hierarchy in general? Maybe male feminists see the issues that men face, and recognize that perhaps people in power are causing it?

[Dyrrachium]

Yeh, because talking about the overimprisonment of men, and how men are falling behind in schools, and how men are demonized in the media, etc.
That only benefits white men.
It's not like blacks go to school or get arrested or anything. That's silly.

Incidentally, I notice that you just completely switched up your claim. Good work there, i'm sure nobody will notice you moving the goalposts to another hemisphere. It surely makes it look like you're here in good faith, and not as a bigot spouting bullshit.

Orrrr maybe it's not a male problem, but some other underlying issue? A lot of these issues you mention seem to be very U.S. focused as well. But maybe, if we're talking about prison, schools, the media, it's the overarching societal system itself? Capitalism? The state of democracy? Hierarchy in general? Maybe male feminists see the issues that men face, and recognize that perhaps people in power are causing it?

that doesn't answer why it happens disproportionately more to Men.

[Kincoboh]

Why should a man be an MRA when they can be a feminist instead?

Why be a feminist when a person could advocate for men's right instead?

Either way, they seem kind of silly. Why not be a libertarian and advocate the rights of all?

"All lives matter"?