The NS Mens Rights Thread

[Camicon]

An interesting article on how male's learn in single sex and coed classes, as well as girls later on

We hear a lot about women being at a disadvantage in school, at least when it comes to STEM fields(because of choice for the most part), but there's also been talk about how guys are doing worse in school across the board. As discussed in the article above, most schools tend to prefer female or girlish behavior because on average it's more calm and not boisterous, willing to cooperate. Sadly, this isn't how most boys learn very well. Being stuck in a classroom for hours on end and not being allowed to be boys stifles them, to put it in simple terms.

The article also shows an experiment where in one school where the teachers all had the same credentials(and I'm assuming in the sex-segregated classrooms they were the same genders of their students) and were taught the same material, boys and girls performed better in same-sex classrooms than students in a coed classroom(though girls still outperformed boys in the coed classroom).

I would actually support any school that had such classes, whatever helps the student learn better. All boy's schools and all girl schools seem to work.

Here's my question - are boys not learning as well in coed classrooms because biologically they are different, or because people raise their sons and daughters differently?

There is no proof that male and female brains actually work differently, so we have to assume that it is based on social teachings. We teach that "boys should be boys," and that often includes not enforcing patience and stillness, where in girls we demand them to be complacent and quiet. But if you look at young children who haven't yet had these things forced on them, it's not difficult to see that boy and girl children behave the same way. I used to work at a preschool where children were taught to play and act in ways other than gender stereotypes. There wasn't much difference in the students ability to grasp different ideas or lessons, and they all acted similar. Until, of course, you got to the older classrooms. There we began to see differences. The girls were obedient, the boys were defiant. The girls didn't speak much, where as the boys would talk your ear off.

So, I think, that maybe instead of necessitating single-sex classrooms or schools, perhaps we need a more intensive gender-neutral approach. Both for boys and girls.

Would be nice if the feminist movement launched a campaign to push for that.

Of course, girls aren't being disadvantaged, so they won't.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Here's my question - are boys not learning as well in coed classrooms because biologically they are different, or because people raise their sons and daughters differently?

There is no proof that male and female brains actually work differently, so we have to assume that it is based on social teachings. We teach that "boys should be boys," and that often includes not enforcing patience and stillness, where in girls we demand them to be complacent and quiet. But if you look at young children who haven't yet had these things forced on them, it's not difficult to see that boy and girl children behave the same way. I used to work at a preschool where children were taught to play and act in ways other than gender stereotypes. There wasn't much difference in the students ability to grasp different ideas or lessons, and they all acted similar. Until, of course, you got to the older classrooms. There we began to see differences. The girls were obedient, the boys were defiant. The girls didn't speak much, where as the boys would talk your ear off.

So, I think, that maybe instead of necessitating single-sex classrooms or schools, perhaps we need a more intensive gender-neutral approach. Both for boys and girls.

Would be nice if the feminist movement launched a campaign to push for that.

Of course, girls aren't being disadvantaged, so they won't.

Oh thanks, glad I'm not a feminist or anything.

[Camicon]

Would be nice if the feminist movement launched a campaign to push for that.

Of course, girls aren't being disadvantaged, so they won't.

Oh thanks, glad I'm not a feminist or anything.

I'm simply pointing out that I have yet to see the feminist movement give a single fuck about areas where men are clearly disadvantaged, in spite of and sometimes because of the narrative and policies they push.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Oh thanks, glad I'm not a feminist or anything.

I'm simply pointing out that I have yet to see the feminist movement give a single fuck about areas where men are clearly disadvantaged, in spite of and sometimes because of the narrative and policies they push.

And I say if they don't, then they are not following feminist ideals.

[Haktiva]

An interesting article on how male's learn in single sex and coed classes, as well as girls later on

We hear a lot about women being at a disadvantage in school, at least when it comes to STEM fields(because of choice for the most part), but there's also been talk about how guys are doing worse in school across the board. As discussed in the article above, most schools tend to prefer female or girlish behavior because on average it's more calm and not boisterous, willing to cooperate. Sadly, this isn't how most boys learn very well. Being stuck in a classroom for hours on end and not being allowed to be boys stifles them, to put it in simple terms.

The article also shows an experiment where in one school where the teachers all had the same credentials(and I'm assuming in the sex-segregated classrooms they were the same genders of their students) and were taught the same material, boys and girls performed better in same-sex classrooms than students in a coed classroom(though girls still outperformed boys in the coed classroom).

I would actually support any school that had such classes, whatever helps the student learn better. All boy's schools and all girl schools seem to work.

Here's my question - are boys not learning as well in coed classrooms because biologically they are different, or because people raise their sons and daughters differently?

There is no proof that male and female brains actually work differently, so we have to assume that it is based on social teachings. We teach that "boys should be boys," and that often includes not enforcing patience and stillness, where in girls we demand them to be complacent and quiet. But if you look at young children who haven't yet had these things forced on them, it's not difficult to see that boy and girl children behave the same way. I used to work at a preschool where children were taught to play and act in ways other than gender stereotypes. There wasn't much difference in the students ability to grasp different ideas or lessons, and they all acted similar. Until, of course, you got to the older classrooms. There we began to see differences. The girls were obedient, the boys were defiant. The girls didn't speak much, where as the boys would talk your ear off.

So, I think, that maybe instead of necessitating single-sex classrooms or schools, perhaps we need a more intensive gender-neutral approach. Both for boys and girls.

I would argue that when adolescence starts to kick in that's when classes need to be separated by sex, more to distill the potential in both sexes.

And yes there is, actually. It mostly has to do with the left and right side of the brain.

there's also a list of considerable pros and cons towards single sex classes

gender is not a social construct as far as I can tell. Men and women are naturally masculine and feminine for the most part across cultures.

however, you do bring up a good point when it comes to socialization between young kids. while there are indeed natural impulses specific to the sex of the child, they can be conditioned to either accept or reject such things(I believe most people are indeed a product of their environment, though the parallels are rather striking when it comes to male and female behavior).

it is indeed morally questionable to have boys and girls separated throughout their lives, at least in educational circumstances, and see how they impact society. I have no control over other people's kids and have no desire to coerce such control. the best thing to do would perhaps allow adults(as far as legal terms are concerned) to choose same sex or coed classes, or at least agree to an experiment and assign them randomly.

[Haktiva]

Oh thanks, glad I'm not a feminist or anything.

I'm simply pointing out that I have yet to see the feminist movement give a single fuck about areas where men are clearly disadvantaged, in spite of and sometimes because of the narrative and policies they push.

feminism is in the interests of women, not men. not really a bad thing, per say, but a lot of people treat it as a zero sum game.

[Camicon]

I'm simply pointing out that I have yet to see the feminist movement give a single fuck about areas where men are clearly disadvantaged, in spite of and sometimes because of the narrative and policies they push.

And I say if they don't, then they are not following feminist ideals.

That's dangerously close to a No True Scotsman.

The overwhelming number of definitions I've seen for feminism state, by and large, that it is a movement which fights for equality by advocating for women's rights to be equal to men's rights. There's nothing wrong with that, but people need to stop falsely asserting that feminism is also there to address areas where men are disadvantaged, because it isn't and because it doesn't.

[Othelos]

this is why being in favor of equality in general is easier than using charged political buzzwords

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Here's my question - are boys not learning as well in coed classrooms because biologically they are different, or because people raise their sons and daughters differently?

There is no proof that male and female brains actually work differently, so we have to assume that it is based on social teachings. We teach that "boys should be boys," and that often includes not enforcing patience and stillness, where in girls we demand them to be complacent and quiet. But if you look at young children who haven't yet had these things forced on them, it's not difficult to see that boy and girl children behave the same way. I used to work at a preschool where children were taught to play and act in ways other than gender stereotypes. There wasn't much difference in the students ability to grasp different ideas or lessons, and they all acted similar. Until, of course, you got to the older classrooms. There we began to see differences. The girls were obedient, the boys were defiant. The girls didn't speak much, where as the boys would talk your ear off.

So, I think, that maybe instead of necessitating single-sex classrooms or schools, perhaps we need a more intensive gender-neutral approach. Both for boys and girls.

I would argue that when adolescence starts to kick in that's when classes need to be separated by sex, more to distill the potential in both sexes.

And yes there is, actually. It mostly has to do with the left and right side of the brain.

there's also a list of considerable pros and cons towards single sex classes

gender is not a social construct as far as I can tell. Men and women are naturally masculine and feminine for the most part across cultures.

however, you do bring up a good point when it comes to socialization between young kids. while there are indeed natural impulses specific to the sex of the child, they can be conditioned to either accept or reject such things(I believe most people are indeed a product of their environment, though the parallels are rather striking when it comes to male and female behavior).

it is indeed morally questionable to have boys and girls separated throughout their lives, at least in educational circumstances, and see how they impact society. I have no control over other people's kids and have no desire to coerce such control. the best thing to do would perhaps allow adults(as far as legal terms are concerned) to choose same sex or coed classes, or at least agree to an experiment and assign them randomly.

However those differences don't really discuss what I meant. It's not the brain that makes boys less likely to learn better in coeducational settings, it's the society. The fact that teachers teach to "female" traits isn't the problem, it's that we have gendered traits to begin with. We teach students to have female or male traits. If we taught the same behaviors through life to boys and girls, we would see less disparity between the behaviors of the sexes. Perhaps if we stop belittling boys by saying they can't control their impulses, and stop enforcing silence upon girls, the educational differences wouldn't be quite so... well, different. Neither of those attitudes are healthy for their respective genders, and I don't think that we can succeed in gender equality if we are still focusing on making the sexes different, nor do I think having single-sex classrooms can help achieve gender equality. You can't enforce differences and simultaneously suggest that there aren't differences, and I think showing that the male-female difference isn't significant is a major, major part of equality. And I don't blame teacher in this, as it's more the parent's influence that makes children follow gendered norms.

[Camicon]

I would argue that when adolescence starts to kick in that's when classes need to be separated by sex, more to distill the potential in both sexes.

And yes there is, actually. It mostly has to do with the left and right side of the brain.

there's also a list of considerable pros and cons towards single sex classes

gender is not a social construct as far as I can tell. Men and women are naturally masculine and feminine for the most part across cultures.

however, you do bring up a good point when it comes to socialization between young kids. while there are indeed natural impulses specific to the sex of the child, they can be conditioned to either accept or reject such things(I believe most people are indeed a product of their environment, though the parallels are rather striking when it comes to male and female behavior).

it is indeed morally questionable to have boys and girls separated throughout their lives, at least in educational circumstances, and see how they impact society. I have no control over other people's kids and have no desire to coerce such control. the best thing to do would perhaps allow adults(as far as legal terms are concerned) to choose same sex or coed classes, or at least agree to an experiment and assign them randomly.

However those differences don't really discuss what I meant. It's not the brain that makes boys less likely to learn better in coeducational settings, it's the society. The fact that teachers teach to "female" traits isn't the problem, it's that we have gendered traits to begin with. We teach students to have female or male traits. If we taught the same behaviors through life to boys and girls, we would see less disparity between the behaviors of the sexes. Perhaps if we stop belittling boys by saying they can't control their impulses, and stop enforcing silence upon girls, the educational differences wouldn't be quite so... well, different. Neither of those attitudes are healthy for their respective genders, and I don't think that we can succeed in gender equality if we are still focusing on making the sexes different, nor do I think having single-sex classrooms can help achieve gender equality. You can't enforce differences and simultaneously suggest that there aren't differences, and I think showing that the male-female difference isn't significant is a major, major part of equality. And I don't blame teacher in this, as it's more the parent's influence that makes children follow gendered norms.

Actually, there are some developmental differences between girls and boys; not everything is nurture. Which isn't to say that encouraging more gender neutral was of child rearing is a bad thing, but speaking as a student teacher, part of the problem with under-performing male students is that there are very few male elementary teachers, we're like friggin' unicorns. And under-performing in elementary schools can have long term detrimental effects on students as they grow older, at which point the higher representation of male teachers in the junior and senior high grades is largely irrelevant.

Want an easy way to boost male achievement in schools? Start encouraging men to teach in the elementary grades.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

However those differences don't really discuss what I meant. It's not the brain that makes boys less likely to learn better in coeducational settings, it's the society. The fact that teachers teach to "female" traits isn't the problem, it's that we have gendered traits to begin with. We teach students to have female or male traits. If we taught the same behaviors through life to boys and girls, we would see less disparity between the behaviors of the sexes. Perhaps if we stop belittling boys by saying they can't control their impulses, and stop enforcing silence upon girls, the educational differences wouldn't be quite so... well, different. Neither of those attitudes are healthy for their respective genders, and I don't think that we can succeed in gender equality if we are still focusing on making the sexes different, nor do I think having single-sex classrooms can help achieve gender equality. You can't enforce differences and simultaneously suggest that there aren't differences, and I think showing that the male-female difference isn't significant is a major, major part of equality. And I don't blame teacher in this, as it's more the parent's influence that makes children follow gendered norms.

Actually, there are some developmental differences between girls and boys; not everything is nurture. Which isn't to say that encouraging more gender neutral was of child rearing is a bad thing, but speaking as a student teacher, part of the problem with under-performing male students is that there are very few male elementary teachers, we're like friggin' unicorns. And under-performing in elementary schools can have long term detrimental effects on students as they grow older, at which point the higher representation of male teachers in the junior and senior high grades is largely irrelevant.

Want an easy way to boost male achievement in schools? Start encouraging men to teach in the elementary grades.

Oh, I absolutely do. I just celebrated recently one of my male friends graduating to become an elementary school teacher. The thing standing in the way is that we are telling men that they can't be nurturing because that's a female trait, and when they are nurturing they are watched closely because they "might be predators." It's bullshit and it needs to stop.

[Haktiva]

However those differences don't really discuss what I meant. It's not the brain that makes boys less likely to learn better in coeducational settings, it's the society. The fact that teachers teach to "female" traits isn't the problem, it's that we have gendered traits to begin with. We teach students to have female or male traits. If we taught the same behaviors through life to boys and girls, we would see less disparity between the behaviors of the sexes. Perhaps if we stop belittling boys by saying they can't control their impulses, and stop enforcing silence upon girls, the educational differences wouldn't be quite so... well, different. Neither of those attitudes are healthy for their respective genders, and I don't think that we can succeed in gender equality if we are still focusing on making the sexes different, nor do I think having single-sex classrooms can help achieve gender equality. You can't enforce differences and simultaneously suggest that there aren't differences, and I think showing that the male-female difference isn't significant is a major, major part of equality. And I don't blame teacher in this, as it's more the parent's influence that makes children follow gendered norms.

Actually, there are some developmental differences between girls and boys; not everything is nurture. Which isn't to say that encouraging more gender neutral was of child rearing is a bad thing, but speaking as a student teacher, part of the problem with under-performing male students is that there are very few male elementary teachers, we're like friggin' unicorns. And under-performing in elementary schools can have long term detrimental effects on students as they grow older, at which point the higher representation of male teachers in the junior and senior high grades is largely irrelevant.

Want an easy way to boost male achievement in schools? Start encouraging men to teach in the elementary grades.

in legal terms the sexes should be equal, but they never will be in pretty much every other area of life. men and women value each other differently, for one, and there's the usual sexual dimorphism not just in terms of strength, endurance, pain tolerance and all that, but the psychology is typically very different, which we can indeed attribute to our nature(which is why I think it's ludicrous to allow kids to go through transexual processes).

I agree that having more male teachers could very well improve the situation for young boys. getting rid of the notion that men shouldn't be around young children would sure be a big help.

[Camicon]

Actually, there are some developmental differences between girls and boys; not everything is nurture. Which isn't to say that encouraging more gender neutral was of child rearing is a bad thing, but speaking as a student teacher, part of the problem with under-performing male students is that there are very few male elementary teachers, we're like friggin' unicorns. And under-performing in elementary schools can have long term detrimental effects on students as they grow older, at which point the higher representation of male teachers in the junior and senior high grades is largely irrelevant.

Want an easy way to boost male achievement in schools? Start encouraging men to teach in the elementary grades.

Oh, I absolutely do. I just celebrated recently one of my male friends graduating to become an elementary school teacher. The thing standing in the way is that we are telling men that they can't be nurturing because that's a female trait, and when they are nurturing they are watched closely because they "might be predators." It's bullshit and it needs to stop.

Don't I know it.

I just finished my first spring practicum this past year. The few men in my class were all told, point blank by our field organizer, "do not ever let yourself be in a classroom alone with a student. And if it is unavoidable, keep the door open, stay by the door, and keep yourself in a clear line of sight with people outside of the classroom". One of our female peers, her first week in class, was left alone with the kids for hours at a time (really shitty thing for her partner teacher to do, by the by). "Staggering" doesn't even being to describe the double standards here.

[Haktiva]

Oh, I absolutely do. I just celebrated recently one of my male friends graduating to become an elementary school teacher. The thing standing in the way is that we are telling men that they can't be nurturing because that's a female trait, and when they are nurturing they are watched closely because they "might be predators." It's bullshit and it needs to stop.

Don't I know it.

I just finished my first spring practicum this past year. The few men in my class were all told, point blank by our field organizer, "do not ever let yourself be in a classroom alone with a student. And if it is unavoidable, keep the door open, stay by the door, and keep yourself in a clear line of sight with people outside of the classroom". One of our female peers, her first week in class, was left alone with the kids for hours at a time (really shitty thing for her partner teacher to do, by the by). "Staggering" doesn't even being to describe the double standards here.

i have to wonder if it's feminism that's done that, traditionalism, or a mix of both.

the idea that men always need to be "manly" is a societal expectation, a matter of public opinion. public perception is as malleable as it is worthless as far as I'm concerned, and indeed the individual needs to be empowered. however, we are social animals and we crave a tribal identity. I don't think most people try to self-actuallize and take ownership of themselves and really hold their agency.

[Camicon]

Don't I know it.

I just finished my first spring practicum this past year. The few men in my class were all told, point blank by our field organizer, "do not ever let yourself be in a classroom alone with a student. And if it is unavoidable, keep the door open, stay by the door, and keep yourself in a clear line of sight with people outside of the classroom". One of our female peers, her first week in class, was left alone with the kids for hours at a time (really shitty thing for her partner teacher to do, by the by). "Staggering" doesn't even being to describe the double standards here.

i have to wonder if it's feminism that's done that, traditionalism, or a mix of both.

the idea that men always need to be "manly" is a societal expectation, a matter of public opinion. public perception is as malleable as it is worthless as far as I'm concerned, and indeed the individual needs to be empowered. however, we are social animals and we crave a tribal identity. I don't think most people try to self-actuallize and take ownership of themselves and really hold their agency.

The "men can't be trusted around children" bullshit is a result of pedophile panic. To my knowledge, feminism didn't really have anything to do with that, it was more a combination of moralistic right-wingers, fear mongers, evangelicals, and "tough on crime" politicians that stoked the fire to benefit their careers.

[EDIT] Though the "men are inherently sexual creatures that can't control themselves" narrative that is pushed by certain feminist factions certainly doesn't help matters.

[Haktiva]

i have to wonder if it's feminism that's done that, traditionalism, or a mix of both.

the idea that men always need to be "manly" is a societal expectation, a matter of public opinion. public perception is as malleable as it is worthless as far as I'm concerned, and indeed the individual needs to be empowered. however, we are social animals and we crave a tribal identity. I don't think most people try to self-actuallize and take ownership of themselves and really hold their agency.

The "men can't be trusted around children" bullshit is a result of pedophile panic. To my knowledge, feminism didn't really have anything to do with that, it was more a combination of moralistic right-wingers, fear mongers, evangelicals, and "tough on crime" politicians that stoked the fire to benefit their careers.

I remember watching Boys Beware in high school with my gay friend for a project on the 50s. we both couldn't help but find it hilarious, kinda like Reefer Madness.

I suppose we can't really blame feminist, for that, they focus on women. the crazy ones demonize men and boys(they're also the ones who get misandric laws passed, along with the support of traditionalist women at times, at least if it doesn't hurt hubby, that is)

[Dortmundia]

Just like feminism this is also bullshit

[The Cobalt Sky]

Just like feminism this is also bullshit

I've never seen someone derail an entire thread in just 7 words. Nice try, though.

[New Grestin]

Just like feminism this is also bullshit

Oh, nice shot, mate.

Try having an actual opinion next time, it helps.

[Camicon]

Just like feminism this is also bullshit

I've never seen someone derail an entire thread in just 7 words. Nice try, though.

Meh. Could'a done it in three.

[The Cobalt Sky]

I've never seen someone derail an entire thread in just 7 words. Nice try, though.

Meh. Could'a done it in three.

Go ahead and try it then, bruh. Let the world see how you can burn a thread.

[Camicon]

Meh. Could'a done it in three.

Go ahead and try it then, bruh. Let the world see how you can burn a thread.

"Bullshit, like feminism."

[The Cobalt Sky]

Go ahead and try it then, bruh. Let the world see how you can burn a thread.

"Bullshit, like feminism."

OH GOD! THE THREAD IS FALLING APART AT THE SEAMS!

[New Grestin]

Go ahead and try it then, bruh. Let the world see how you can burn a thread.

"Bullshit, like feminism."

"Sir, what's that on the horizon?"
"I'm not quite sure, Dawkins. Give me the binoculars."
"..."
"What is it?"
"Oh, oh god."
"What?!"
"Feminists."

[Hirota]

Just like feminism this is also bullshit

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.