The NS Mens Rights Thread

[Ostroeuropa]

And until someone takes a scalpel to it and carves out what exactly does and does not belong to the various flavours of "feminism", I will continue to hold them all under the banner of the majority opinion.

Can you prove that the majority of feminists feel the way you claim they do? There is a reason we use adjectives to describe things, in particular there are adjectives that can be used to describe which brand of feminism you are talking about.

The effects of the feminist movement on society are known.
Who gives a fuck if it's a majority or not.

Let's say a gang of thugs like the Crips went around beating the shit into people, and that's pretty much all they actually get up to and effect society with.

Then you've got someone saying they are a Crip too, but a moderate who thinks they should do some charity work instead.

Would we sit around debating whether or not we can call the Crips a fucking menace to society just in case the majority aren't insane?

It's fucking pointless. It doesn't matter.
It need to be destroyed either way, and if you're running around a battlefield wearing the enemy colors, I don't give a shit if you get shot and then whine about being a civilian.
Don't dress up as the enemy. You are providing cover for menaces to society. Stop it, or stop whining when you get shot along with them.

Identifying as a feminist means you have invited scorn, ridicule, contempt, and condescension to yourself, because the actual effect of feminism is discriminatory and hateful.

Whether or not you agree with that view, it's important to understand that it's a valid view to have given the circumstances as they currently are.

That in itself, shows that the feminism movement is fucked.

I have zero empathy for """"Moderate"""" feminists who get verbal abuse and vitriol from people.

Don't openly identify as a sexist bigot, then.

People who openly identify as weird segregation era racists get laughed at because they aren't currently fucking over everybody.

Feminists are. So identifying as one of the sources of massive problems in society is going to get you shit.

That's before you get into the actual, practical effects of why identifying as a feminist means you are useless to mens issues, and the mere act of doing it causes sexism against men to persist.

This isn't a case of a movement having some nutters.
It's the case of the nutters running the movement and having institutional power. It's qualitively different. You can't point to morons in the MRM to counter that point. They aren't a menace to society.

[Sanctissima]

Two things I've never understood about the MRM (genuinely looking for honest answers here):

1) Why do many MRM supporters claim it isn't a reactionary group to feminism, when the obverse seems blatantly obvious (i.e: almost every argument in MRM forums is in regards to feminism)

2) Continuing that line of thought, isn't it hypocritical to bash feminism for being almost solely about women, when your own group is almost solely about men. I mean, if this was about egalitarianism, why not call it something like the "Egalitarian Rights Movement" or "Rights for Everyone Movement", rather than the "Men's Rights Movement".

[Val Halla]

Some people just want attention for their extreme views and will try and use stable ideologies to do this.

like Andrea Dworkin?

No idea O_O

[Ostroeuropa]

Two things I've never understood about the MRM (genuinely looking for honest answers here):

1) Why do many MRM supporters claim it isn't a reactionary group to feminism, when the obverse seems blatantly obvious (i.e: almost every argument in MRM forums is in regards to feminism)

2) Continuing that line of thought, isn't it hypocritical to bash feminism for being almost solely about women, when your own group is almost solely about men. I mean, if this was about egalitarianism, why not call it something like the "Egalitarian Rights Movement" or "Rights for Everyone Movement", rather than the "Men's Rights Movement".

1. It isn't reactionary, because that's not what reactionary means. If you asked is the MRM a REACTION to feminism, you'd get mixed answers. Some would say yes, in part, it is. Reactionary means far-right wing and wanting to roll back social progress. Conflating feminism with social progress is the intellectually dishonest maneuver they pull. In addition, they talk a lot about feminism because it is the status quo, and they believe the status quo is sexist against men.

2. No, it isn't. Because feminism claims to be all that is required to fix sexism. The MRM doesn't. It's like a cattle farmer calling bullshit on a turnip farmer for insisting that you only need turnips in your diet to survive.
Further, there are different strains of MRM. I've labeled them arbitrarily here:

Mutualist MRA:
Someone who thinks MRM criicism of feminism will result in a feminism reforming itself and a merger of the movements to be an egalitarian one.

Seperatist MRA:
Someone who thinks MRM criticism of feminism will undermine it's authority and legitimacy leading to it losing it's monopoly on gender relations, at which point the MRM and feminism can co-exist sharing power.

Annihilationist MRA:
Someone who thinks the MRM will have to destroy the feminist movement, which will ultimately result in the collapse of the MRM, at which point a new movement will emerge from the wreckage of both.

In dealing with feminists for years, i've shifted through all three of those to the last one.
I don't think feminism will ever change. I think it needs to be removed from authority. I don't think they are capable of accepting a dualist view. They will never allow their monopoly to be lost, and will always fight to regain it if it is.

We cannot breathe the same air as these people, basically.


But crucially, all three strains of MRM recognize the necessity of work on womens issues too. They just don't think it's their job to do it as MRAs.
Most will identify as WRA/MRA.

[Val Halla]

What is an MGTOW? Is it just a homosexual male MRA?

[Ostroeuropa]

What is an MGTOW? Is it just a homosexual male MRA?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=342956&p=24777686#p24777686

Here you go

[Val Halla]

What is an MGTOW? Is it just a homosexual male MRA?

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=342956&p=24777686#p24777686

Here you go

S basically it's radicalism?

[Ostroeuropa]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=342956&p=24777686#p24777686

Here you go

S basically it's radicalism?

I would argue the first two types are not radicalism. I'd say it's encouraging men to have self-respect and guiding them through a self-esteem and self-worth issues that society pushes on them.

viewtopic.php?p=24779310#p24779310

Is also worth a read. It's a response from an MGTOW. (Ignore the quoted, its my post again.)

[Val Halla]

S basically it's radicalism?

I would argue the first two types are not radicalism. I'd say it's encouraging men to have self-respect and guiding them through a self-esteem and self-worth issues that society pushes on them.

viewtopic.php?p=24779310#p24779310

Is also worth a read. It's a response from an MGTOW. (Ignore the quoted, its my post again.)

Huh.

Libertarianism always concerns me

[Haktiva]

I would argue the first two types are not radicalism. I'd say it's encouraging men to have self-respect and guiding them through a self-esteem and self-worth issues that society pushes on them.

viewtopic.php?p=24779310#p24779310

Is also worth a read. It's a response from an MGTOW. (Ignore the quoted, its my post again.)

Huh.

Libertarianism always concerns me

a lot of guys fall into that political spectrum because they want to keep what they earn and want little government intervention. the same guys have pointed out it's idealistic and doesn't take into account human nature.

MGTOW is choosing to opt out of the mating game to one degree or another. some take it as not being married, some don't date, others turn into hermits. it depends on how bad they've been burnt by women or jus society in general, if they've been burnt at all, but the most "radical" guys have been through hell, to put it lightly.

[Galloism]

Huh.

Libertarianism always concerns me

a lot of guys fall into that political spectrum because they want to keep what they earn and want little government intervention. the same guys have pointed out it's idealistic and doesn't take into account human nature.

MGTOW is choosing to opt out of the mating game to one degree or another. some take it as not being married, some don't date, others turn into hermits. it depends on how bad they've been burnt by women or jus society in general, if they've been burnt at all, but the most "radical" guys have been through hell, to put it lightly.

Honestly, libertarian MGTOWs have flat out missed the obvious.

Men make up the majority of homeless people, the majority of suicides, and the majority of victims of crime - by significant margins in all three categories.

Government assistance for the downtrodden should be a major item for anyone who's actually interested in men's issues. They need it more than anybody.

[Val Halla]

a lot of guys fall into that political spectrum because they want to keep what they earn and want little government intervention. the same guys have pointed out it's idealistic and doesn't take into account human nature.

MGTOW is choosing to opt out of the mating game to one degree or another. some take it as not being married, some don't date, others turn into hermits. it depends on how bad they've been burnt by women or jus society in general, if they've been burnt at all, but the most "radical" guys have been through hell, to put it lightly.

Honestly, libertarian MGTOWs have flat out missed the obvious.

Men make up the majority of homeless people, the majority of suicides, and the majority of victims of crime - by significant margins in all three categories.

Government assistance for the downtrodden should be a major item for anyone who's actually interested in men's issues. They need it more than anybody.

Well I don't like libertarianism for my own reasons, but I do agree with you on this.

The largest (majority) group for suicides or attempted suicides are men in the 41-45 age bracket, iirc.

[Ostroeuropa]

a lot of guys fall into that political spectrum because they want to keep what they earn and want little government intervention. the same guys have pointed out it's idealistic and doesn't take into account human nature.

MGTOW is choosing to opt out of the mating game to one degree or another. some take it as not being married, some don't date, others turn into hermits. it depends on how bad they've been burnt by women or jus society in general, if they've been burnt at all, but the most "radical" guys have been through hell, to put it lightly.

Honestly, libertarian MGTOWs have flat out missed the obvious.

Men make up the majority of homeless people, the majority of suicides, and the majority of victims of crime - by significant margins in all three categories.

Government assistance for the downtrodden should be a major item for anyone who's actually interested in men's issues. They need it more than anybody.

Arguably, they might want more charity. I agree with you, it's just.
*Sigh*.
Libertarians, you know?

The ones in the MRM tend to be an agreeable sort who openly say they'd prefer the state intervene in both cases or neither at all. It's the inconsistency that bothers them. Some of them do use that as an argument against state intervention in general, arguing it's always inconsistent and erratic.
Ghost of a point there.

But yeh, i'm against right-libertarianism for the usual reasons.

[Haktiva]

a lot of guys fall into that political spectrum because they want to keep what they earn and want little government intervention. the same guys have pointed out it's idealistic and doesn't take into account human nature.

MGTOW is choosing to opt out of the mating game to one degree or another. some take it as not being married, some don't date, others turn into hermits. it depends on how bad they've been burnt by women or jus society in general, if they've been burnt at all, but the most "radical" guys have been through hell, to put it lightly.

Honestly, libertarian MGTOWs have flat out missed the obvious.

Men make up the majority of homeless people, the majority of suicides, and the majority of victims of crime - by significant margins in all three categories.

Government assistance for the downtrodden should be a major item for anyone who's actually interested in men's issues. They need it more than anybody.

Barbarossa talked about this, and I agree. While it would be best if these systems weren't in place(or even needed), there's no point in only having them available for one group of people and nobody else, especially when the taxpayers are paying for it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Honestly, libertarian MGTOWs have flat out missed the obvious.

Men make up the majority of homeless people, the majority of suicides, and the majority of victims of crime - by significant margins in all three categories.

Government assistance for the downtrodden should be a major item for anyone who's actually interested in men's issues. They need it more than anybody.

Barbarossa talked about this, and I agree. While it would be best if these systems weren't in place(or even needed), there's no point in only having them available for one group of people and nobody else, especially when the taxpayers are paying for it.

Right on cue.

Honestly, libertarian MGTOWs have flat out missed the obvious.

Men make up the majority of homeless people, the majority of suicides, and the majority of victims of crime - by significant margins in all three categories.

Government assistance for the downtrodden should be a major item for anyone who's actually interested in men's issues. They need it more than anybody.

Arguably, they might want more charity. I agree with you, it's just.
*Sigh*.
Libertarians, you know?

The ones in the MRM tend to be an agreeable sort who openly say they'd prefer the state intervene in both cases or neither at all. It's the inconsistency that bothers them. Some of them do use that as an argument against state intervention in general, arguing it's always inconsistent and erratic.
Ghost of a point there.

But yeh, i'm against right-libertarianism for the usual reasons.

[Haktiva]

A video on male scarcity. Thoughts?

[The Klishi Islands]

Could someone be so kind as to post some of those statistics regarding higher male suicide rates, equal rape/DV rates, etc? I have a feminist friend (non-radical) who is a bit skeptical of the MRA movement.

[Obexer]

Could someone be so kind as to post some of those statistics regarding higher male suicide rates, equal rape/DV rates, etc? I have a feminist friend (non-radical) who is a bit skeptical of the MRA movement.

I found two lists on suicide rates. Keep in mind that the gender ratio isn't 1:1 in most nations, but male suicide rates still seem freakishly higher in almost every single country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... icide_rate
http://list25.com/25-countries-with-the ... the-world/

Gender ratio by country:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _sex_ratio

[Ostroeuropa]

Could someone be so kind as to post some of those statistics regarding higher male suicide rates, equal rape/DV rates, etc? I have a feminist friend (non-radical) who is a bit skeptical of the MRA movement.

If you ever need sources, go to the reddit.

here though;

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gende ... d%208-.pdf
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawrevi ... /kelly.pdf

There is domestic violence.

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

And there you go on rape.

[New Benian Republic]

That moment when it looks like Scottish men are the most sexually harassed in Europe and possibly the world.

[The Klishi Islands]

Could someone be so kind as to post some of those statistics regarding higher male suicide rates, equal rape/DV rates, etc? I have a feminist friend (non-radical) who is a bit skeptical of the MRA movement.

I found two lists on suicide rates. Keep in mind that the gender ratio isn't 1:1 in most nations, but male suicide rates still seem freakishly higher in almost every single country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... icide_rate
http://list25.com/25-countries-with-the ... the-world/

Gender ratio by country:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _sex_ratio

Could someone be so kind as to post some of those statistics regarding higher male suicide rates, equal rape/DV rates, etc? I have a feminist friend (non-radical) who is a bit skeptical of the MRA movement.

If you ever need sources, go to the reddit.

here though;

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gende ... d%208-.pdf
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawrevi ... /kelly.pdf

There is domestic violence.

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

And there you go on rape.

Thank you!

[Tekania]

there are obvious problems (like male victims of domestic abuse/rape) in which men get screwed but i'm still not convinced there needs to be an entirely separate movement to address them and am skeptical of most organized attempts to create one because they tend to attract the "the best way to fight rape is to legalize it crowd". while people complain feminists don't care about men or speak out against extremists i haven't seen many "men's rights activists" denounce the extremists in their movements either. admittedly i don't pay much attention to the related threads so maybe you will have something to show me on that front?

From what I've noted looking at interactions between those communities though, It appears to me the MRA's don't generally bring up extremists throwing threats as a point that Feminists are generally supposed to be held responsible, but as a response to the fact that feminists use those threats against MRA's while at the same time not addressing the rabid ones doing in supposedly in their own name.

To envisiion what I am talking about, imagine we were two kids arguing on a playground, and we were civil about it, but a couple of loose acquantances that each agree with us were there too, and yours would keep slapping me in the fact, and mine slapping you...... and then as a point of order against you I bring up your acquaintance that kept slapping me in the face. It would be fair game at that point for you to bring up that I do absolutely nothing about the one slapping you in the face so it's not a very equal view to condemn you for failing to do a particular act that I myself won't do.

MY view on this is that mainstream MRA is just as relevant as mainstream feminism. Both of them have great points they make, and both of them have things which are shortfalls. I think a singular movement would be great, but I just do not see it happening, because when it really comes down to it, people are assholes.

The general gist of what I've been seeing is that the MRA is not necessarily really about rights, really it seems most of what they are talking about deal with social responsibility... that is the movement is seeking EQUAL responsibility rather than equal RIGHTS (so in a way the name they use is not correct for the movement), which is itself important. As certain rights that men have traditionally held have resulted in particular responsibilities upon men, and many times which the rights are equalized between the two the responsibilities are not, which results in an unfair treatment. Feminists tend to not address areas of unequal responsibility unless the responsibility effects women in a negative way.... which is kind of expected as the movement does center itself on women's rights. Of course in this sometimes other issues come up, MRA's want certain responsibilities ended which really should just be equaled and not terminated... and they form a social good needed for a functional and continual society (ensured care for children for example).

I'm critical of both sides, because both sides have good points, and both sides have short comings..... and I just don't see either side really addressing the other because in the end they are both being heavily driven by ideology and not necessarily a truly egalitarian nature.

[Ostroeuropa]

I found two lists on suicide rates. Keep in mind that the gender ratio isn't 1:1 in most nations, but male suicide rates still seem freakishly higher in almost every single country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... icide_rate
http://list25.com/25-countries-with-the ... the-world/

Gender ratio by country:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _sex_ratio

If you ever need sources, go to the reddit.

here though;

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gende ... d%208-.pdf
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawrevi ... /kelly.pdf

There is domestic violence.

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

And there you go on rape.

Thank you!

No problem. Those two issues aren't the only ones, there's plenty more. How well versed are you?

[The Klishi Islands]

Thank you!

No problem. Those two issues aren't the only ones, there's plenty more. How well versed are you?

Not very. I'm not exactly active on these issues. I know generally that the feminist movements and MRA movements mostly pursue noble goals but each have their issues, and that there are extremists that pollute both messages. I also generally support both movements but agree that they need reform.

I'm more of a geopolitical junkie.

[Ostroeuropa]

No problem. Those two issues aren't the only ones, there's plenty more. How well versed are you?

Not very. I'm not exactly active on these issues. I know generally that the feminist movements and MRA movements mostly pursue noble goals but each have their issues, and that there are extremists that pollute both messages. I also generally support both movements but agree that they need reform.

I'm more of a geopolitical junkie.

That's fine, we all have our areas of focus. The suicide issue is one that probably requires being well versed to understand in it's entirety. I would say the issues you raised are symptoms of deeper problems in the culture, it's institutions, and the media, and won't be resolved until those issues are.

Namely the empathy gap, male disposability, women are wonderful effect, and gynocentrism. But, that said, if you're not inclined to get deep into it, that isn't too much of a problem I don't think, so long as you don't oppose the MRM working.