The limits of choice

[Galloism]

Ketchup is culturally accepted and pressured as a popular condiment choice, so there's no real choice for most people on whether to use ketchup or not. They had that decision forced upon them by a ketchup-based society.

Ban ketchup for the sake of culinary rights.

Thankfully, there are alternatives to ketchup. Especially bland tomato ketchup.

But society pressures you to eat it. Ergo, it must be banned.

Ketchup is oppression.

[Celseon]

So rather than directly confronting the norms which are allegedly leading women to do harm to themselves unwittingly (which is a very disparaging view of women's ability to make decisions and a potential misrepresentation of cosmetic surgery, by the by) we're expected to simply get on board with taking away women's ability to choose for themselves whether to obtain cosmetic surgery in the name of "liberation".

[USS Monitor]

I think breast implants are gross and it's pretty fucked up that anyone would get them. Then again, I also think ketchup is gross and it's pretty fucked up how many people eat it. Are we going to ban ketchup?

No they're not. It depends.

In my opinion, they are. It's an opinion, not a fact. You don't get to tell me what my opinion is.

[Teemant]

No they're not. It depends.

In my opinion, they are. It's an opinion, not a fact. You don't get to tell me what my opinion is.

And I told my opinion.

[Galloism]

No they're not. It depends.

In my opinion, they are. It's an opinion, not a fact. You don't get to tell me what my opinion is.

Since we're talking about breast implants being "gross", I'll throw my hat in the ring. I don't think they're gross, but having had sex with a woman who had breast implants a number of years ago, it made her breasts feel weird.

like, distractingly weird.

So, I generally have a preference personally against breast implants. However, that's a woman's personal choice, and I see no reason to restrict it based on my feelings.

[Fartsniffage]

There's no need to hurt our health, pure and simple.
Makeup doesn't hurt health.
Gyms improve health.

The British NHS disagrees with you. Breast implants are offered as treatment for several conditions.

[MERIZoC]

Are women unable to think for themselves now? I agree that cultural standards can be harmful, but people are capable of breaking out of them. Legislation isn't the way to stop it. Besides, where do we draw the line? Women generally have long hair, do we ban it because it's too much of a cultural norm? What about skirts? Hell, what about bras?

[USS Monitor]

My idea is that she can be right.
It IS against freedom, but I think it can be really empowering for women.
The reason is clearly explained, unwillingly, by him:



There's no need to hurt our health, pure and simple.
Makeup doesn't hurt health.
Gyms improve health.

Don't know about makeup, but people do die from hair dye.

Even if you're not allergic, the chemicals in hair dye are not good for long-term health. It is why I stopped dyeing my hair, even though I liked how it looked.

[Fartsniffage]

Don't know about makeup, but people do die from hair dye.

Even if you're not allergic, the chemicals in hair dye are not good for long-term health. It is why I stopped dyeing my hair, even though I liked how it looked.

Aren't you worried about rust now?

[Galloism]

Are women unable to think for themselves now? I agree that cultural standards can be harmful, but people are capable of breaking out of them. Legislation isn't the way to stop it. Besides, where do we draw the line? Women generally have long hair, do we ban it because it's too much of a cultural norm? What about skirts? Hell, what about bras?

I say we ban women wearing tops on the beach. Too much of a cultural norm.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I have to say that as a woman, who has probably been around a great deal longer than most of you kidlets, I've seen more pressure, criticism, snobbery, degradation, and all other manner of bullshit from other women in my life. Not so much the men.

Perhaps I've just had the good luck of dealing with mostly great guys in my lifetime. Perhaps the supposed 'limitations' that the 'patriarchy' puts out there have always been things I've either ignored, trod upon, and done what I wanted to in spite of. Perhaps those women I've run into who are like that, I just had the misfortune of meeting the less gracious of. (Which is not to say I haven't met and had the pleasure to befriend a good many outstanding women too, mind. Props to mah fellow ladies.)

It just occurs to me that if we paid less attention to what we think someone else wants us to do, think, believe, want, etc ... and go out and do, think, believe, want, etc what we choose to, we might all be a great deal better off, more content, less angry, and I dunno ... actually accomplishing.

So what if someone says 'you can't do this, you're a girl'. Or someone else says 'this is what a man ought to be like'. Or yet another loudly proclaims 'women have to be this way'. How many of us really give a flying fuck what any of them think or say? How many of us really waste this much time fussing and fretting over what some jackhammer of a person's opinion is? How much time is wasted on these sorts of circle-jerks, on all sides of the equation? And how many people are actually being harmed - as in real, damaging harm, folks. Not just imagined, or invented, or blown-up 'harm' that seems to be so popular with so many different groups today who seem more caught up in telling others to 'check their priv' than doing something positive for themselves?

Yeah. I totally went there, folks. I haven't got any patience for the amount of utter asshattery I'm seeing from one end of the scope to the other, across all fields of play, and all causes, sides, issues, what have you anymore. To put it bluntly, get over yourselves. Get out there and do what you want. Believe what you want. Achieve what you want. And if you actually run into a roadblock? Then do something about THAT. The only real limitation I've run into thus far is an overall lack of money. And if you think I'm going to start crying about how I ought to be handed more for some vague reasoning of color, gender, issues, problems, limitations, or any other reason, you've got another thing coming.

I'm quite content to pull myself up by my bootstraps, and earn it myself, thanks. On my own terms, in my own way. And thus far, not seeing any of the supposed limitations I'm supposed to be banging my head against, as a woman in the US of A. Go fig.

[The Wolven League]

Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.

This.

[USS Monitor]

Even if you're not allergic, the chemicals in hair dye are not good for long-term health. It is why I stopped dyeing my hair, even though I liked how it looked.

Aren't you worried about rust now?

I am getting some help with that, but there is not much I can do.

[The Wolven League]

I have to say that as a woman, who has probably been around a great deal longer than most of you kidlets

Time lord spotted.

[Xanama]

Then we should ban living too, too normal

[Esternial]

Taking away people's freedom in order to fight the patriarchy won't actually help you do much against the patriarchy.

Seems like it would negatively impact people's freedom to choice while accomplishing very little.

It reads very much as a very authoritarian approach to feminism. Several women define what is "good for women" and other women are supposed to conform to it, whether they want to or not. That's not how feminism should work. It's close to a patriarchy run by women.

[Chessmistress]

Are women unable to think for themselves now? I agree that cultural standards can be harmful, but people are capable of breaking out of them. Legislation isn't the way to stop it. Besides, where do we draw the line? Women generally have long hair, do we ban it because it's too much of a cultural norm? What about skirts? Hell, what about bras?

Long hair and skirts do not hurt health.
Some women are capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
Some other women aren't capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
I think that as long as cultural pressure doesn't enforce unhealthy "choices" then there aren't problems, but there ARE problems when the "choices" enforced by cultural pressure are harmful, unhealthy.
We must keep care of all women, helping them to overcome such cultural pressure.
I'm NOT sure about a "ban", I'm NOT sure it would work well, maybe it wouldn't.
But I'm absolutely sure a massive awareness campaign about such matter can do just only good.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I have to say that as a woman, who has probably been around a great deal longer than most of you kidlets, I've seen more pressure, criticism, snobbery, degradation, and all other manner of bullshit from other women in my life. Not so much the men.

Perhaps I've just had the good luck of dealing with mostly great guys in my lifetime. Perhaps the supposed 'limitations' that the 'patriarchy' puts out there have always been things I've either ignored, trod upon, and done what I wanted to in spite of. Perhaps those women I've run into who are like that, I just had the misfortune of meeting the less gracious of. (Which is not to say I haven't met and had the pleasure to befriend a good many outstanding women too, mind. Props to mah fellow ladies.)

It just occurs to me that if we paid less attention to what we think someone else wants us to do, think, believe, want, etc ... and go out and do, think, believe, want, etc what we choose to, we might all be a great deal better off, more content, less angry, and I dunno ... actually accomplishing.

So what if someone says 'you can't do this, you're a girl'. Or someone else says 'this is what a man ought to be like'. Or yet another loudly proclaims 'women have to be this way'. How many of us really give a flying fuck what any of them think or say? How many of us really waste this much time fussing and fretting over what some jackhammer of a person's opinion is? How much time is wasted on these sorts of circle-jerks, on all sides of the equation? And how many people are actually being harmed - as in real, damaging harm, folks. Not just imagined, or invented, or blown-up 'harm' that seems to be so popular with so many different groups today who seem more caught up in telling others to 'check their priv' than doing something positive for themselves?

Yeah. I totally went there, folks. I haven't got any patience for the amount of utter asshattery I'm seeing from one end of the scope to the other, across all fields of play, and all causes, sides, issues, what have you anymore. To put it bluntly, get over yourselves. Get out there and do what you want. Believe what you want. Achieve what you want. And if you actually run into a roadblock? Then do something about THAT. The only real limitation I've run into thus far is an overall lack of money. And if you think I'm going to start crying about how I ought to be handed more for some vague reasoning of color, gender, issues, problems, limitations, or any other reason, you've got another thing coming.

I'm quite content to pull myself up by my bootstraps, and earn it myself, thanks. On my own terms, in my own way. And thus far, not seeing any of the supposed limitations I'm supposed to be banging my head against, as a woman in the US of A. Go fig.

So can I get breast implants?

[Eol Sha]

So in order to improve women's rights we should take rights away from women.

Sounds like Phyllis Schlafly.

[MERIZoC]

Are women unable to think for themselves now? I agree that cultural standards can be harmful, but people are capable of breaking out of them. Legislation isn't the way to stop it. Besides, where do we draw the line? Women generally have long hair, do we ban it because it's too much of a cultural norm? What about skirts? Hell, what about bras?

Long hair and skirts do not hurt health.
Some women are capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
Some other women aren't capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
I think that as long as cultural pressure doesn't enforce unhealthy "choices" then there aren't problems, but there ARE problems when the "choices" enforced by cultural pressure are harmful, unhealthy.
We must keep care of all women, helping them to overcome such cultural pressure.
I'm NOT sure about a "ban", I'm NOT sure it would work well, maybe it wouldn't.
But I'm absolutely sure a massive awareness campaign about such matter can do just only good.

So this is a health thing? Then do we ban smoking, drugs, processed foods, cars, and all the other things that are detrimental to our health? After all, those are all part of our cultural norms.

[Eol Sha]

Are women unable to think for themselves now? I agree that cultural standards can be harmful, but people are capable of breaking out of them. Legislation isn't the way to stop it. Besides, where do we draw the line? Women generally have long hair, do we ban it because it's too much of a cultural norm? What about skirts? Hell, what about bras?

Long hair and skirts do not hurt health.
Some women are capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
Some other women aren't capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
I think that as long as cultural pressure doesn't enforce unhealthy "choices" then there aren't problems, but there ARE problems when the "choices" enforced by cultural pressure are harmful, unhealthy.
We must keep care of all women, helping them to overcome such cultural pressure.
I'm NOT sure about a "ban", I'm NOT sure it would work well, maybe it wouldn't.
But I'm absolutely sure a massive awareness campaign about such matter can do just only good.

Is breast reduction surgery okay in your book?

[Eol Sha]

Long hair and skirts do not hurt health.
Some women are capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
Some other women aren't capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
I think that as long as cultural pressure doesn't enforce unhealthy "choices" then there aren't problems, but there ARE problems when the "choices" enforced by cultural pressure are harmful, unhealthy.
We must keep care of all women, helping them to overcome such cultural pressure.
I'm NOT sure about a "ban", I'm NOT sure it would work well, maybe it wouldn't.
But I'm absolutely sure a massive awareness campaign about such matter can do just only good.

So this is a health thing? Then do we ban smoking, drugs, processed foods, cars, and all the other things that are detrimental to our health? After all, those are all part of our cultural norms.

Well the awareness campaigns against tobacco and smoking have drastically reduced consumption of tobacco and tobacco-related products.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Nothing wrong with liking large breasts.

[Chessmistress]

Long hair and skirts do not hurt health.
Some women are capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
Some other women aren't capable of breaking out of cultural pressure.
I think that as long as cultural pressure doesn't enforce unhealthy "choices" then there aren't problems, but there ARE problems when the "choices" enforced by cultural pressure are harmful, unhealthy.
We must keep care of all women, helping them to overcome such cultural pressure.
I'm NOT sure about a "ban", I'm NOT sure it would work well, maybe it wouldn't.
But I'm absolutely sure a massive awareness campaign about such matter can do just only good.

So this is a health thing? Then do we ban smoking, drugs, processed foods, cars, and all the other things that are detrimental to our health? After all, those are all part of our cultural norms.

SMOKING: awareness campaigns and even limited bans and even rasing taxes in order to discourage consumption - ALREADY ENFORCED.
DRUGS: already severely limited and mostly outlaed.
UNHEALTHY FOODS: awareness campaigns already performing, proposals about taxations and so on.
CARS: the most harmful (polluting) models are already banned from some zones of the cities, some other zones are totally "car-free", various areas for electric / zero-emission cars only, promotions and government funding for hybrid and zero-emission cars.

Then

Why it should be different for breast implants?

[USS Monitor]

I have to say that as a woman, who has probably been around a great deal longer than most of you kidlets, I've seen more pressure, criticism, snobbery, degradation, and all other manner of bullshit from other women in my life. Not so much the men.

I have had the same experience.

Some men do have unrealistic expectations, or will make idiotic comments like responding to anti-fat-shaming propaganda by ranting about the health consequences of extreme morbid obesity, which completely misses the point. But the nastiest personal attacks and the most persistent pushing of unreasonable beauty standards has been from other women who seem like they want to turn it into a competition to see who can do the most weird shit to their body and get the closest to some unattainable "ideal" -- and the "ideal" has very little to do with what men are attracted to.