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The limits of choice

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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:57 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:Here's an inconvenient truth that only authoritarians like me will admit:

If you really want to change culture in a big way and in a short period of time, you have to do it by force.

So yes, if you think there is something very wrong with present-day culture that needs to be changed ASAP - regardless of whether you're coming from a liberal or conservative angle, whether you want to uphold women's rights or restore the importance of religion in society or whatever - then you will be naturally drawn to authoritarian measures. Because those are the only measures that can make big changes quickly. And that's ok. The state is the greatest tool for social change ever invented by human kind. Use it. Embrace it.

Those who oppose the use of state power to change culture are those who basically support the status quo.

^this^
And that's exactly why we, as Radical Feminists, are ready even to temporary and apparently weird alliances, like in example when we marched right next christians in order to stop the legalization of prostitution: because we accept that some force is needed if someone wish to change things, and in a democracy force is achieved by numbers.
In example: Convention of Istanbul, a Radical Feminist policy protecting women from domestic violence performed by males, was passed even with a lot of conservative votes across 18 European countries.

And I, as a Marxist who is also a Christian and sympathizes with many socially-conservative causes, would be very happy to be allied with you. In fact, I sympathize with both socially-conservative causes and radical feminist causes, because they often share a common enemy: liberal capitalist society and the culture it promotes, which commodifies and degrades women.

Libertarians will bleat about the supposed "right" that people have to degrade and commodify themselves. I do not question the fact that some people do indeed enjoy being commodified and degraded. But those people are wrong.
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:02 am

It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:10 am

Hydesland wrote:It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:14 am

Galloism wrote:
Hydesland wrote:It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?


http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/pa ... comp.shtml

This is for the United States' data on breast implants.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:21 am

Galloism wrote:
Hydesland wrote:It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?


This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.
Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed law and know that, in Canada, gender and sex are the same thing

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PRO:
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affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
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New Aerios
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Postby New Aerios » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:28 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?


This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.


I'm going to need you to provide a source for this supposed psychological damage. As for financial "damage", how will that be alleviated by your plan to impose a tax on breast implants?
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:28 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?


This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

And making it harder to exercise by making it artificially more expensive.

Let's not forget that part.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:29 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Galloism wrote:Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?


http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/pa ... comp.shtml

This is for the United States' data on breast implants.

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:34 am

Galloism wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/pa ... comp.shtml

This is for the United States' data on breast implants.

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.


It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.
Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed law and know that, in Canada, gender and sex are the same thing

OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:40 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.


It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.


No, you are talking about the empowerment of 4.93 percent of all women in the United States, or about 5 million of them, and only within the ages of 20-55 apparently

https://www.pacificheightsplasticsurger ... tatistics/

Like I stated before, breast implants are not popular in America and in fact it is pretty much frowned upon within the mainstream culture. In America, at least, banning or limiting this choice wouldn't be empowering for anyone but ~5% of them.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:42 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.


It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.


There's discouraging in the form of saying "look, I don't think that's a good idea", and then there's using economic levers and tighter restrictions to reduce availability in order to try and put it out of people's reach. The latter restricts choices.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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New Aerios
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Postby New Aerios » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:08 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:I do not question the fact that some people do indeed enjoy being commodified and degraded. But those people are wrong.


And yet you're an authoritarian. You enjoy being commodified and degraded by the state, and wish to subject others to the same degradation. Ergo, you are wrong.
-------------------------------I--M--P--E--R--I--V--M----N--O--V--A----A--E--R--I--O--S---------------------------------
"No matter how worthy the cause, it is robbery, theft, and injustice to confiscate the property of one person and give it to another to whom it does not belong"

"Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man."
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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:10 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?


This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

I'm getting implants and you can't stop me. I might also get implants in my ass. And trust me, they're for me, and only me.
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Oasisa
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Postby Oasisa » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:11 pm

Trumptasric America wrote:So you can't liberate people by limiting choice. Good that we have established that. Now if only you commies could see that its the same thing with the minimum wage: let workers think for themselves. Nobody is making them take jobs that would pay below the current minimal wage. If that's what they want then the state has no business forcing them to be unemployed. True liberation would be the elimination of minimum wage laws.


Except the whole food thing. Just sayin. :()

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Esheaun Stroakuss
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Postby Esheaun Stroakuss » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:17 pm

Socialist Tera wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:Here's an inconvenient truth that only authoritarians like me will admit:

If you really want to change culture in a big way and in a short period of time, you have to do it by force.

So yes, if you think there is something very wrong with present-day culture that needs to be changed ASAP - regardless of whether you're coming from a liberal or conservative angle, whether you want to uphold women's rights or restore the importance of religion in society or whatever - then you will be naturally drawn to authoritarian measures. Because those are the only measures that can make big changes quickly. And that's ok. The state is the greatest tool for social change ever invented by human kind. Use it. Embrace it.

Those who oppose the use of state power to change culture are those who basically support the status quo. If you are against the status quo in a big way, come to the authoritarian side.

+1. A cultural revolution would be needed in modern society.


Yeah, because in Mao's China, it worked out so well.
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Esheaun Stroakuss
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Postby Esheaun Stroakuss » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:41 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

I'm getting implants and you can't stop me. I might also get implants in my ass. And trust me, they're for me, and only me.


Won't they hurt? Not being funny, but I've heard bad stuff about arse implants.
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Esheaun Stroakuss is currently led by Edna Harris, who currently reflects this user's views.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:58 pm

Esheaun Stroakuss wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:I'm getting implants and you can't stop me. I might also get implants in my ass. And trust me, they're for me, and only me.


Won't they hurt? Not being funny, but I've heard bad stuff about arse implants.

Surgery is gonna hurt regardless of what it is lol.
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Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere
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Postby Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:02 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.


It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.


Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?
A sort-of conservative, more likely centrist nation with a belief in the free market to deliver us from evil. Former worshiper of own religion, Edgwarianism, but now an atheist, Laveyan Satanist and happy go lucky homosexual. I like capitalism and private enterprise, but not so much of communism or feminism. Fundamental religious nutjobs are not excused from their idiocies.

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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:03 pm

Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.


Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. :roll: Isn't she a hoot?
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My interests include baking cookies, make-up,
shopping for dresses and high heels, glittery Christmas ornaments,
and dead things.
I scream a lot.
Also, I'm an Ancom.
Also, I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend.
Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Val Halla
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Postby Val Halla » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:10 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere wrote:
Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. :roll: Isn't she a hoot?

"Hey, I like this dress. Might buy it for myself"

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Solaas
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Postby Solaas » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:15 pm

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere wrote:
Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. :roll: Isn't she a hoot?


It would be REALLY interesting this survey: how many women having breast implants are heterosexuals? How many are bisexuals? How many are lesbians?
I can even guess the percentages...
Sadly, no one is performing such survey, it would be really interesting.

@SAT: nice flag, the very best one after Threlizdun!
Last edited by Solaas on Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:19 pm

I like to replace every instance of "patriarchy" with "jews" or "Illuminati". Nothing would change.
Solaas wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. :roll: Isn't she a hoot?


It would be REALLY interesting this survey: how many women having breast implants are heterosexuals? How many are bisexuals? How many are lesbians?
I can even guess the percentages...
Sadly, no one is performing such survey, it would be really interesting.

Because heterosexual women get breast implants solely to impress men and conform to the patriarchy, if that's a reason at all.
Last edited by The Empire of Pretantia on Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere
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Postby Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:26 pm

Val Halla wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. :roll: Isn't she a hoot?

"Hey, I like this dress. Might buy it for myself"

"MALE OPRESHUN!"


Since joining NationStates, I never want stupidity to die. Luckily with this thread, and with Chessmistress' suggestions, it never will.
A sort-of conservative, more likely centrist nation with a belief in the free market to deliver us from evil. Former worshiper of own religion, Edgwarianism, but now an atheist, Laveyan Satanist and happy go lucky homosexual. I like capitalism and private enterprise, but not so much of communism or feminism. Fundamental religious nutjobs are not excused from their idiocies.

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:29 pm

Um.

Women should be able to get breast implants if they want them...? Is that what this is about? Letting women do what they want, even if it is to please/attract men...?
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Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere
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Postby Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:30 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Um.

Women should be able to get breast implants if they want them...? Is that what this is about? Letting women do what they want, even if it is to please/attract men...?


Yes. However, are they really thinking for themselves, or are they thinking that they're thinking for themselves when in actually they're being tempted by the wicked demon known as man?????? :blink: Food for thought, Sisyphus.
A sort-of conservative, more likely centrist nation with a belief in the free market to deliver us from evil. Former worshiper of own religion, Edgwarianism, but now an atheist, Laveyan Satanist and happy go lucky homosexual. I like capitalism and private enterprise, but not so much of communism or feminism. Fundamental religious nutjobs are not excused from their idiocies.

Pro: Capitalism, atheism, rational thought, centrism, Laveyan satanism (specifically Lesser Magic), LGBT rights
Anti: Communism, religion, feminism, conformity

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