The limits of choice

[Constantinopolis]

Here's an inconvenient truth that only authoritarians like me will admit:

If you really want to change culture in a big way and in a short period of time, you have to do it by force.

So yes, if you think there is something very wrong with present-day culture that needs to be changed ASAP - regardless of whether you're coming from a liberal or conservative angle, whether you want to uphold women's rights or restore the importance of religion in society or whatever - then you will be naturally drawn to authoritarian measures. Because those are the only measures that can make big changes quickly. And that's ok. The state is the greatest tool for social change ever invented by human kind. Use it. Embrace it.

Those who oppose the use of state power to change culture are those who basically support the status quo.

^this^
And that's exactly why we, as Radical Feminists, are ready even to temporary and apparently weird alliances, like in example when we marched right next christians in order to stop the legalization of prostitution: because we accept that some force is needed if someone wish to change things, and in a democracy force is achieved by numbers.
In example: Convention of Istanbul, a Radical Feminist policy protecting women from domestic violence performed by males, was passed even with a lot of conservative votes across 18 European countries.

And I, as a Marxist who is also a Christian and sympathizes with many socially-conservative causes, would be very happy to be allied with you. In fact, I sympathize with both socially-conservative causes and radical feminist causes, because they often share a common enemy: liberal capitalist society and the culture it promotes, which commodifies and degrades women.

Libertarians will bleat about the supposed "right" that people have to degrade and commodify themselves. I do not question the fact that some people do indeed enjoy being commodified and degraded. But those people are wrong.

[Hydesland]

It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

[Galloism]

It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/pa ... comp.shtml

This is for the United States' data on breast implants.

[Chessmistress]

It should be noted that awareness campaigns do nothing to either demonstrate the "limits of choice" or in fact limit choice in any way. All that does is correct asymmetric information, and therefore make the choice clearer for consumers.

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

[New Aerios]

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

I'm going to need you to provide a source for this supposed psychological damage. As for financial "damage", how will that be alleviated by your plan to impose a tax on breast implants?

[Galloism]

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

And making it harder to exercise by making it artificially more expensive.

Let's not forget that part.

[Galloism]

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/pa ... comp.shtml

This is for the United States' data on breast implants.

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.

[Chessmistress]

http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/pa ... comp.shtml

This is for the United States' data on breast implants.

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.

It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.

It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.

No, you are talking about the empowerment of 4.93 percent of all women in the United States, or about 5 million of them, and only within the ages of 20-55 apparently

https://www.pacificheightsplasticsurger ... tatistics/

Like I stated before, breast implants are not popular in America and in fact it is pretty much frowned upon within the mainstream culture. In America, at least, banning or limiting this choice wouldn't be empowering for anyone but ~5% of them.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.

It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.

There's discouraging in the form of saying "look, I don't think that's a good idea", and then there's using economic levers and tighter restrictions to reduce availability in order to try and put it out of people's reach. The latter restricts choices.

[New Aerios]

I do not question the fact that some people do indeed enjoy being commodified and degraded. But those people are wrong.

And yet you're an authoritarian. You enjoy being commodified and degraded by the state, and wish to subject others to the same degradation. Ergo, you are wrong.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Incidentally, I am curious about this and poked around but couldn't find any numbers. What IS the death/lifelong injury rate from breast implants?

This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

I'm getting implants and you can't stop me. I might also get implants in my ass. And trust me, they're for me, and only me.

[Oasisa]

So you can't liberate people by limiting choice. Good that we have established that. Now if only you commies could see that its the same thing with the minimum wage: let workers think for themselves. Nobody is making them take jobs that would pay below the current minimal wage. If that's what they want then the state has no business forcing them to be unemployed. True liberation would be the elimination of minimum wage laws.

Except the whole food thing. Just sayin. )

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Here's an inconvenient truth that only authoritarians like me will admit:

If you really want to change culture in a big way and in a short period of time, you have to do it by force.

So yes, if you think there is something very wrong with present-day culture that needs to be changed ASAP - regardless of whether you're coming from a liberal or conservative angle, whether you want to uphold women's rights or restore the importance of religion in society or whatever - then you will be naturally drawn to authoritarian measures. Because those are the only measures that can make big changes quickly. And that's ok. The state is the greatest tool for social change ever invented by human kind. Use it. Embrace it.

Those who oppose the use of state power to change culture are those who basically support the status quo. If you are against the status quo in a big way, come to the authoritarian side.

+1. A cultural revolution would be needed in modern society.

Yeah, because in Mao's China, it worked out so well.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

This is not the main damage. The main damage is psychological and financial, also a degradation for all women.

Thank you to Hydesland for highlighting that I was just only advocating for making the choice clearer for women misleaded within our patriarchal culture.

I'm getting implants and you can't stop me. I might also get implants in my ass. And trust me, they're for me, and only me.

Won't they hurt? Not being funny, but I've heard bad stuff about arse implants.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I'm getting implants and you can't stop me. I might also get implants in my ass. And trust me, they're for me, and only me.

Won't they hurt? Not being funny, but I've heard bad stuff about arse implants.

Surgery is gonna hurt regardless of what it is lol.

[Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere]

I'll be honest, that's a lot higher than I thought.

It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.

Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

It's the price some women pay to conform to male expectations within a male-dominated culture.
And it seems that for you trying to discourage them from that it's all limiting their choices and not about the empowerment of ALL women.

Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. Isn't she a hoot?

[Val Halla]

Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. Isn't she a hoot?

"Hey, I like this dress. Might buy it for myself"

"MALE OPRESHUN!"

[Solaas]

Maybe women just want to have bigger tits?

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. Isn't she a hoot?

It would be REALLY interesting this survey: how many women having breast implants are heterosexuals? How many are bisexuals? How many are lesbians?
I can even guess the percentages...
Sadly, no one is performing such survey, it would be really interesting.

@SAT: nice flag, the very best one after Threlizdun!

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I like to replace every instance of "patriarchy" with "jews" or "Illuminati". Nothing would change.

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. Isn't she a hoot?

It would be REALLY interesting this survey: how many women having breast implants are heterosexuals? How many are bisexuals? How many are lesbians?
I can even guess the percentages...
Sadly, no one is performing such survey, it would be really interesting.

Because heterosexual women get breast implants solely to impress men and conform to the patriarchy, if that's a reason at all.

[Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere]

According to Chess, women NEVER want things because they want them, they only want things to impress men. Isn't she a hoot?

"Hey, I like this dress. Might buy it for myself"

"MALE OPRESHUN!"

Since joining NationStates, I never want stupidity to die. Luckily with this thread, and with Chessmistress' suggestions, it never will.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Um.

Women should be able to get breast implants if they want them...? Is that what this is about? Letting women do what they want, even if it is to please/attract men...?

[Adnan Nawaz And Bureacrats Elsewhere]

Um.

Women should be able to get breast implants if they want them...? Is that what this is about? Letting women do what they want, even if it is to please/attract men...?

Yes. However, are they really thinking for themselves, or are they thinking that they're thinking for themselves when in actually they're being tempted by the wicked demon known as man?????? Food for thought, Sisyphus.