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The limits of choice

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Chessmistress
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The limits of choice

Postby Chessmistress » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:28 am

Hello to all, I quite recently discovered this book through Feminist Review praising it as a potential new frontier for both liberal and feminist thought.
Basically the author argues about the real limits of choices.
She wrote that there are cultural practices harmful to women and enforced by societal norms (aka patriarchy) that hurts the health of women, like in example breast implants, and that these practices should be outlawed by a government that really keep care of gender equality and women wellbeing, for the purpose to send a message and to begin a real change of cultural norms harmful to women.
Of course, that can even be framed as a limitation to the freedom of women, but the point is: it's real freedom if women are enforced by patriarchal cultural norms to basically perform a violent and harmful modification of their bodies?

What do you think, NSGs, about it?

More informations:

The author, a radical feminist from Cambridge University, UK
http://www.phil.cam.ac.uk/people/teachi ... mbers-page

The review
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/fr/jou ... 0832a.html
Chambers's use of the notion of ‘cosmetic knee implants’ to jolt readers into appreciating how thoroughly bizarre cosmetic breast implants are, in the absence of patriarchal norms and pressures: ‘Until breast implants seem as peculiar as knee implants, we cannot say that a woman chooses to have them for reasons divorced from patriarchy and thus that her decision is irrelevant to justice’ (p. 40). Throughout, Chambers's book draws fruitfully on two literatures – post-modern philosophy with its giants Foucault and Bourdieu, and analytic political philosophy with its giants Rawls and Raz (among others). These literatures are frequently kept separate in the academy and attract separate followings, but Chambers succeeds in bringing them to bear on one another. Plenty of feminists have tried to write books that have an impact on – in the sense of altering – mainstream, androcentric, liberal theory. But they have sometimes failed, perhaps because they are too dependent on jargon peculiar to gender studies, or because they do not engage enough with liberal theorists’ recent debates and preoccupations. Chambers' book deftly avoids both of these problems, so there is real potential here for this book to alter mainstream liberal thinking.


Another, and maybe more clear, review:
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/impact/fe ... -of-choice
All societies have social norms – unspoken rules that we live by if we want to fit in. In most Western countries, it is normal for men to wear trousers and not skirts. While some men might see this as a constraint, most will have not even thought about it, and would be surprised or embarrassed if skirt-wearing was suggested. So the idea of ‘normal’ is deeply ingrained, and is part of a natural human desire to blend into our social context.

But these norms can become more sinister if they lead a person to do something that is harmful to their health in order to conform. In many countries women are judged very strongly on their appearance, and there are many unwritten rules about how a woman should look – she should not have grey hair, or be round, or have breasts that are too small or too saggy.

Wearing make-up or dressing in a certain style are some of the ways in which women conform to these beauty norms. But these choices are not harmful, whereas invasive surgery – with all the potential complications it can bring – clearly is.

The power of social pressure

Chambers’ book challenges liberal and multicultural theories that see choice as the mark of a just society, and cultural norms as something to be protected at all costs. The argument goes that if someone does something by choice, even if it means they are worse off than other people, it’s not a problem.

Chambers points out that people make choices within the framework of social rules and pressures. She argues that this framework affects what options are open to an individual, and can even affect their desires.

In a society where women are not allowed to have certain jobs, their options are clearly limited. But even in a more open society, the desire to fit in with social norms can affect what we want to do. If a woman decides she wants breast implants, Chambers argues she is not making that decision in a vacuum. Social norms are influencing both her options and her preferences, and leading her to choose something which can have serious implications for her health.
Last edited by Chessmistress on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yorkvale
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Postby Yorkvale » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:34 am

I call bullshit to radical feminism. The only limit to choice is when your choice hurts someone else directly. Not by adding on to some consumer preference or culture some women deem harmful because of an imaginary societal ill it adds onto aka "the patriarchy".

Women get breast implants because they want to feel sexy, and bigger bobs are considered sexy. Granted out of all the men in the world there are more than one that would take any woman regardless of the size of their breasts. But it's her business of she wants to feel sexy. And stripping her of that right does more damage to women with self esteem issues than any imaginary patriarchy.
Last edited by Yorkvale on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:35 am

Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.
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Yorkvale
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Postby Yorkvale » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:36 am

Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.


^This
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." - the wisest man that ever lived.

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Renewed Imperial Germany
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Postby Renewed Imperial Germany » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:38 am

Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Came to say this, staying for the inevitable shitstorm that ChessMistress is going to bring as she tries to argue against pure logic. You, my friend, win all the Internets

Nothing more needs to be said here.
Last edited by Renewed Imperial Germany on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New Aerios
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Postby New Aerios » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:39 am

So in order to improve women's rights we should take rights away from women.

:palm:
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:40 am

I think breast implants are gross and it's pretty fucked up that anyone would get them. Then again, I also think ketchup is gross and it's pretty fucked up how many people eat it. Are we going to ban ketchup?
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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:42 am

Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.


You should read better.
I still have to express my thoughts about the idea.
The idea comes from an university professor, a radical feminist teaching at Cambridge, the best university in UK.
I was just curious about what people here think about such idea.
Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed law and know that, in Canada, gender and sex are the same thing

OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:42 am

USS Monitor wrote:I think breast implants are gross and it's pretty fucked up that anyone would get them. Then again, I also think ketchup is gross and it's pretty fucked up how many people eat it. Are we going to ban ketchup?

Ketchup is culturally accepted and pressured as a popular condiment choice, so there's no real choice for most people on whether to use ketchup or not. They had that decision forced upon them by a ketchup-based society.

Ban ketchup for the sake of culinary rights.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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New Grestin
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Postby New Grestin » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:42 am

Because the patriarchy totally exists guys and it's oppressing women by letting them do what they want with their bodies!

Top fucking kek, rad-fems.
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Renewed Imperial Germany
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Postby Renewed Imperial Germany » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:43 am

New Aerios wrote:So in order to improve women's rights we should take rights away from women.

:palm:


Exactly. If women want breast implants, let them get them. After all, if we want a FREE society people should be FREE to do things like get implants. Whats next? Ban makeup? Ban gyms because being 'in shape' conforms to the 'norms' handed down by this mythical "Patriarchy?" The fact is the logic in this post is just so insane it could be used to ban just about anything.

Also, as Galloism said, its rather insulting to women to think that they are so mindless that all the "evils" of the patriarchy need to be banned for them to make the "right" decision. Utter nonsense.
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Yorkvale
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Postby Yorkvale » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:43 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.


You should read better.
I still have to express my thoughts about the idea.
The idea comes from an university professor, a radical feminist teaching at Cambridge, the best university in UK.
I was just curious about what people here think about such idea.


And it looks like you have the answer.
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." - the wisest man that ever lived.

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Deuxtete
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Postby Deuxtete » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:44 am

Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.

Perfectly said.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:44 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.


You should read better.
I still have to express my thoughts about the idea.
The idea comes from an university professor, a radical feminist teaching at Cambridge, the best university in UK.
I was just curious about what people here think about such idea.

You may simply copy my idea about you over to her.

You brought up this topic and you frequently bring up stupid oppressive ideas on some misguided idea that removal of choice equals liberation. I think we all know your "thoughts".
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Renewed Imperial Germany
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Postby Renewed Imperial Germany » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:46 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yay!

Come for the "breast implants are oppression", stay for the "women are basically patriarchy servant drones and can't think for themselves!"


Honestly, you think of women more degradingly than any MRA I've ever heard.


You should read better.
I still have to express my thoughts about the idea.
The idea comes from an university professor, a radical feminist teaching at Cambridge, the best university in UK.
I was just curious about what people here think about such idea.


So... you haven't expressed an opinion. Well, that means that you have posted an improper OP. *tsk* *tsk*
Last edited by Renewed Imperial Germany on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jute » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:46 am

Galloism wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:I think breast implants are gross and it's pretty fucked up that anyone would get them. Then again, I also think ketchup is gross and it's pretty fucked up how many people eat it. Are we going to ban ketchup?

Ketchup is culturally accepted and pressured as a popular condiment choice, so there's no real choice for most people on whether to use ketchup or not. They had that decision forced upon them by a ketchup-based society.

Ban ketchup for the sake of culinary rights.

Thankfully, there are alternatives to ketchup. Especially bland tomato ketchup.
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New Aerios
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Postby New Aerios » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:48 am

Chessmistress wrote:a radical feminist teaching at Cambridge, the best university in UK.


And that's supposed to give her credibility?

"And here's the new chairman of the Anti Defamation League and head of the Centre for Jewish Studies, Mr Adolf Hitler! He's going to talk to us today about why the holocaust was a great thing."

Anyone who wants to take rights away from women is doing a terrible job of being a feminist. Fact.
Last edited by New Aerios on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"No matter how worthy the cause, it is robbery, theft, and injustice to confiscate the property of one person and give it to another to whom it does not belong"

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New Grestin
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Postby New Grestin » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:48 am

Modern Radical Feminism in a nutshell, now that I think about it.

Moderate feminists just advocate for women, radical feminists go searching for imaginary monsters to slay because they can't acknowledge that they've won the fight in the western world, but can't be bothered to go to places where actual patriarchy exists and try to solve it.

Instead, they complain that women are getting breast implants.

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Last edited by New Grestin on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shamhnan Insir » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:49 am

Not met anyone who believes that their own choice of body modification was forced upon them by society. Choice is exactly that, choice. The body you dwell within is your own tapestry, decorate it with whatever you like.
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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:50 am

Renewed Imperial Germany wrote:
New Aerios wrote:So in order to improve women's rights we should take rights away from women.

:palm:


Exactly. If women want breast implants, let them get them. After all, if we want a FREE society people should be FREE to do things like get implants. Whats next? Ban makeup? Ban gyms because being 'in shape' conforms to the 'norms' handed down by this mythical "Patriarchy?" The fact is the logic in this post is just so insane it could be used to ban just about anything.

Also, as Galloism said, its rather insulting to women to think that they are so mindless that all the "evils" of the patriarchy need to be banned for them to make the "right" decision. Utter nonsense.


My idea is that she can be right.
It IS against freedom, but I think it can be really empowering for women.
The reason is clearly explained, unwillingly, by him:

Yorkvale wrote:Granted out of all the men in the world there are more than one that would take any woman regardless of the size of their breasts.


There's no need to hurt our health, pure and simple.
Makeup doesn't hurt health.
Gyms improve health.
Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed law and know that, in Canada, gender and sex are the same thing

OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Teemant
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Postby Teemant » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:51 am

USS Monitor wrote:I think breast implants are gross and it's pretty fucked up that anyone would get them. Then again, I also think ketchup is gross and it's pretty fucked up how many people eat it. Are we going to ban ketchup?


No they're not. It depends.
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New Grestin
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Postby New Grestin » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:52 am

Chessmistress wrote:There's no need to hurt our health, pure and simple.
Makeup doesn't hurt health.
Gyms improve health.

And yet, some women still wear it because they choose to do so.

It's almost as though people do things that they want to do, regardless of whether or not someone in authority asks them not to. Hm.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:53 am

Chessmistress wrote:
Renewed Imperial Germany wrote:
Exactly. If women want breast implants, let them get them. After all, if we want a FREE society people should be FREE to do things like get implants. Whats next? Ban makeup? Ban gyms because being 'in shape' conforms to the 'norms' handed down by this mythical "Patriarchy?" The fact is the logic in this post is just so insane it could be used to ban just about anything.

Also, as Galloism said, its rather insulting to women to think that they are so mindless that all the "evils" of the patriarchy need to be banned for them to make the "right" decision. Utter nonsense.


My idea is that she can be right.
It IS against freedom, but I think it can be really empowering for women.
The reason is clearly explained, unwillingly, by him:

Yorkvale wrote:Granted out of all the men in the world there are more than one that would take any woman regardless of the size of their breasts.


There's no need to hurt our health, pure and simple.
Makeup doesn't hurt health.
Gyms improve health.

Don't know about makeup, but people do die from hair dye.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:54 am

Galloism wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:I think breast implants are gross and it's pretty fucked up that anyone would get them. Then again, I also think ketchup is gross and it's pretty fucked up how many people eat it. Are we going to ban ketchup?

Ketchup is culturally accepted and pressured as a popular condiment choice, so there's no real choice for most people on whether to use ketchup or not. They had that decision forced upon them by a ketchup-based society.

Ban ketchup for the sake of culinary rights.


I feel that way sometimes when I have to special order burgers to make sure they don't put ketchup on them, but I don't think outlawing ketchup and forcing ketchup-addicts to get it from shady black market condiment smugglers is the answer.

Which brings me to another point about the boob jobs: If you ban it, people who REALLY want one will still find somewhere to get it done illegally, and you'll have more people going to unlicensed plastic surgeons and being operated on in dangerous conditions.
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Wallenburg
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Posts: 20769
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Wallenburg » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:54 am

Bullshit. Oppressing women who want breast implants is no better--and is indeed worse--than mild male expectations that women have appealing figures.
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grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The East Pacific

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