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What if Lithuania re-united the Eastern Slavs?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Lithuania beats Muscovy and unites Kievan Rus'. Overall, a good or bad thing to Eastern Europe?

Yeah! Medieval Lithuania was badass and they should get the recognition!
31
31%
Nah! Wipe that Baltic speck off my eyes!
13
13%
Uh, yah. No Russia means no Putin and no mass deportations, duh...
16
16%
Accoding to the reason this and this, such a Lithuania would kersplode after a louder fart, so there is no difference anyway...
13
13%
Would Natalia Poklonskaya still exist in this universe?
27
27%
 
Total votes : 100

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Finland SSR
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What if Lithuania re-united the Eastern Slavs?

Postby Finland SSR » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:14 pm

So...

Bavarians can unite Germany, why not then make Lithuanians unite Eastern Europe? At least, most of it.

In the 14th and 15th century, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the largest nation in Eastern Europe, if not all of it. Using the situationof a weakened, disintegrated and splintered Kievan Rus' after the Mongol invasion. Mongol "vassalage" was not very strict, so with a strategic usage of marriages, wars and alliances, Lithuania multiplied in size many times, and became a serious contender for the successor to the previous Eastern Slavic state. Not to mention that they could beat the Mongols themselves - Battle at Blue Waters, 1363, 17 years before Kulikovo. The pagan realm was quite literally trying to become an empire.

Both Gediminas and Algirdas, two of the most well known and influential Grand Dukes if Lithuania, agitated for their ambition to unite all Rus lands. They both wanted to rule over all of former Kievan Rus', and this, obviously, clashed them with other Russian states, like Muscovy. By 1368, there was not much left to stand in Lithuania's way. Kiev has been subjugated after Blue Waters. Tula and Ryazan are either dynastically tied to the current Grand Duke, Algirdas, or allied to him. Lithuanian-supporting knyazes are being elected in Pskov, and Novgorod is in their sphere of influence. Only Muscovy remains.

And then...

Wikipedia page for Algirdas wrote:Algirdas occupied the important principalities of Smolensk and Bryansk in western Russia. Although his relationship with the grand dukes of Muscovy was generally friendly (demonstrated by his marriages to two Orthodox Russian princesses), he besieged Moscow in 1368 and 1370 during the Lithuanian–Muscovite War (1368–72).


Lithuania wanted to place Mikhail II of Ryazan on Muscovy's throne. Sounds innocent at first, until you remember that's how the Balts did their jobs. Fighting in Russia was dangerous, so Lithuanian Grand Dukes resorted to dynastic ties, inheritances, and placing their family members on the thrones of Ruthenian principalities. Mikhail was Algirdas's son-in-law. Coincidence... no.

Lithuania wanted to subjugate Muscovy just like any other Russian realm. In fact, it was their last major rival. All other Eastern Slavic principalities were too weak to challenge the Baltic pagans, and Novgorod can't do shit. However, they stumbled across a major problem... Moscow had just built the Kremlin, merely four months ago, and it's thick walls and defenses were not so easy to push over. Algirdas just looted the countryside and returned home. Then he went there again, nothing changed. Algirdas then died in 1377, his co-ruler Kęstutis died soon after from Jogaila choking him to death in prison (All Gediminids were kind of douches, to be honest), Lithuania went into civil war, then Christianization, Polonization, Muscovite-Lithuanian Wars in the 15th-16th century, Russia formed, Union of Lublin, Partitions of the Commonwealth, Russian occupation, all of 20th centuey and we get what we have today. Russia, the direct child of Muscovy, is a major power, a member of the Security Council and largest nation on the planet by landmass, while Lithuania is a tiny speck on the map of Eastern Europe with a history they are overly proud of.

So what if we change that? Let's say the Kremlin is delayed in construction time, or Algirdas actually brings siege engines and takes it down. Either way, let's assume Moscow falls and Mikhail II is put to the throne. For the sake of argument, he dies early, Algridas uses the claim and takes over the Muscovite lands.

I won't try to put up a full scenario (10 PM here, god dammit), I'll leave you to discuss what woukd happen. But here are some things to remember:

1. Revolts against the Lithuanian rule are possible, but unlikely. Sure, you have a different religion, but Ruthenians were under Baltic rule for centuries, and no clashes between the two are known.

Wikipedia page for Ruthenian nobility wrote:It is estimated that by the 16th century 80% of feudals on Belarusian lands were of Ruthenian ethnicity and 19% of Baltic.[16] No major conflicts between Ruthenian and Baltic szlachta of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania are known. Equality of their rights was also guaranteed by the Lithuanian Statutes of 1529, 1566 and 1588. As time passed, the differences between Lithuanian and Ruthenian fractions of the nobility of the inside the Grand Duchy of Lithuania practically disappeared.


Lithuania was incredibly tolerant of foreign cultures and religions. Jews had lived there since the 9th century without problems (aside for Alexander Jagiellon, but nobody likes him), German Christians could freely live and work there, Lithuanian rulers even ordered to build a church in their neighbourhood. A pagan nation building a church - crazy, I know.

2. Siberian colonization is less likely. Lithuanians did not have that much of a culture for expansion and colonization as Russians did. The entire Cossack colonization thing was a Russian thing, and Lithuanians were more used to conquering and looting actually settled nations. Of course, it coukd happen, assuming Cossacks are still a thing and Lithuania tries to sway them back.

3. Lithuania was far more open to Western culture and influences than Russia. It's both living closer to them and interacting to them more. Jagiellon rulers in Lithuania actively promoted the Renaissance. First university in Eastern Europe - also in Lithuania, 1579 in Vilnius. Before the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, serfdom wasn't that much of a thing too. Sure, the peasants had to work for their liege, but they could freely move from one place to another, or just settle a new area entirely. Just that being next to a castle was far safer.

4. Conversion to Orthodox? Not really. Ruthenian and Lithuanian nobilities merged, but for the most part, Baltic nobles held tight on their religion, whether pagan or Christian. Considering the Teutonic raids, Catholicism is still the most likely option, though considering Lithuania's power at this state a union with Poland is unlikely, and Louis II's descendents end up placing a personal union with Hungary.

So, NSG, let's discuss! I myself believe a Lithuanian Rus would end up as a more innovative and Catholic, though deeply split not-Russia, just far cooler. I'm biased, dammit - I am from Lithuania!
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Reatra
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Postby Reatra » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:18 pm

Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?
yee haw it's time for mass line

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Finland SSR
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Postby Finland SSR » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:20 pm

Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

Spanish Siberia.
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Vektra
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Postby Vektra » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:22 pm

Will be the same as nowadays. Ukranians are ukranians, and they alwais desired to have an Ukranian goverment. Russians will fight too, same as polish... and lithuania don't have so many population to protect so many territory, so I think at the end Lithuania will fall as the Austro-hungary empire did, because their soldiers were not from austria, so they didn't give a shit about Austria.

Finland SSR wrote:
Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

Spanish Siberia.

xD Pitifully, spain had enough problems to not think about that inhospit and cold land.
Last edited by Vektra on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nirvash Type TheEND
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Postby Nirvash Type TheEND » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:22 pm

Even better. Unite all the baltic states under a Finnish banner. Greater Finnish Empire less do dis thang.
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Postby Slakonian » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:24 pm

Man that fourth option :p
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Postby Soviet Spaceships » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:25 pm

Natalia is my only concern. WOULD SHE?
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The Lithuanian-Surinamese Caliphate
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Postby The Lithuanian-Surinamese Caliphate » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:26 pm

Lithuania will unite with Suriname into some sort of caliphate for whatever ridiculous reason before it reunites the Eastern Slavs.
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Finland SSR
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Postby Finland SSR » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:26 pm

Vektra wrote:Will be the same as nowadays. Ukranians are ukranians, and they alwais desired to have an Ukranian goverment. Russians will fight too, same as polish... and lithuania don't have so many population to protect so many territory, so I think at the end Lithuania will fall as the Austro-hungary empire did, because their soldiers were not from austria, so they didn't give a shit about Austria.

Finland SSR wrote:Spanish Siberia.

xD Pitifully, spain had enough problems to not think about that inhospit and cold land.

History is not just political borders and how their change.

Less visible effects, like higher technological and cultural advance, should also be taken into account. And Lithuanian impanct of the cultures than would make up this behemoth. Most Russian historians agree Lithuania caused the Eastern Slavic split.
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Olivaero
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Postby Olivaero » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:27 pm

Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

The Mongols?
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Postby Libertarian South America » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:30 pm

Vektra wrote:Will be the same as nowadays. Ukranians are ukranians, and they alwais desired to have an Ukranian goverment. Russians will fight too, same as polish... and lithuania don't have so many population to protect so many territory, so I think at the end Lithuania will fall as the Austro-hungary empire did, because their soldiers were not from austria, so they didn't give a shit about Austria.

Finland SSR wrote:

Spanish Siberia.

xD Pitifully, spain had enough problems to not think about that inhospit and cold land.


Siberia could be used by all crazy people like us who wants to found a new country :rofl: I would accept a piece of Lind to start up my empire.
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Reatra
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Postby Reatra » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:32 pm

Olivaero wrote:
Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

The Mongols?

The Japanese?
yee haw it's time for mass line

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Vespalia
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Postby Vespalia » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:32 pm

I have no idea what would have happened, but if it had become the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or the Grand Duchy and wasn't partitioned by Catherine and took Moscow...who knows. The world would be different, maybe.
Olivaero wrote:
Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

The Mongols?

The people who already lived in Siberia. It's not the Northern Hemisphere's equivalent of Antarctica; that would be, ah...nowhere in the Northern Hemisphere!
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The Jonathanian States
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Postby The Jonathanian States » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:37 pm

You seem to have made a properly thought out history which could actually have happened. I approve.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:46 pm

The Jonathanian States wrote:You seem to have made a properly thought out history which could actually have happened. I approve.

Ditto, well done indeed.
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Kar-Esseria
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Postby Kar-Esseria » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:49 pm

Okay, so after reading the OP, that scenario I guess is somewhat plausible in an alternate reality.

However, it just give rise to another Central Asian horde to come smashing everybodys castles down and raping all their women. Russian expansion into Siberia, ignoring the ethnic cleansing, was somewhat of a good thing. It scattered and defeated dangerous remnants of the fragmented Mongol hordes and their former like-minded subjects, who independent probably would've started up more hordes. Though most of Europe and the Middle East probably would've been more safe after the Mongols, so it's more likely that they would've been limited to Central Asia, Siberia, and East Asia. I doubt the Lithuanians could've stopped them from roflstomping Russia and the Baltic either. The Russian expansion into Siberia ultimately put an end to steppe empires, something the Lithuanians never could've accomplished.
Last edited by Kar-Esseria on Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Greater Union of Kinnota
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Postby The Greater Union of Kinnota » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:19 pm

I say, sure? Why the hell not.

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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:22 pm

As a Lithuanian, I wholeheartedly support this.

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Alleniana
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Postby Alleniana » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:26 pm

Finland SSR wrote:
Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

Spanish Siberia.

*EU4ian chuckle*
Reatra wrote:
Olivaero wrote:The Mongols?

The Japanese?

The Mongols.
*mongoltage*

Anyway, I'd say;

If the Lithuanians had overcome the Russians, certainly, they would have effectively replaced them. Definitely, they could be a richer, less autocratic, more tolerant, more western-oriented version, but still, they would be following on the Russian tails IRL in terms of colonisation into Siberia if they conquer all the Russians. If not, perhaps Russian remnants expand into Siberia instead, and form a Russian Siberian state. Either way, the technology of the modern world will get rid of the steppes soon enough; Lithuania isn't inhibited doing so.

I imagine it could well be federal as well; with a smaller population, its Siberia might be multiethnic, and like the Ottomans, they may be able to have a strange system that preserves tolerance, and considering their relative economic strength and technology, they might even be able to reform through like the planned USGA. Though, they could well just collapse like A-H or the Ottomans did after some time. Either way, I imagine they'd fare quite well, assuming they survived conflicts with the Polish and Swedish.

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Sun Wukong
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Postby Sun Wukong » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:33 pm

Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

Or, you know, the Yakuts and so on could rule themselves.
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Herskerstad
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Postby Herskerstad » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:39 pm

Lithuania had about the same stability as a Jenga Tower on top of an active jackhammer. Would never happen.
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HuangLao Union
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Postby HuangLao Union » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:41 pm

Modern Lithuania is a NATO stooge. I can only hope them and the poles come to their senses.

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Postby Alghoria » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:41 pm

Olivaero wrote:
Reatra wrote:Well what would fill up Siberia then?


The Chinese?

The Mongols?

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Sun Wukong
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Postby Sun Wukong » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:41 pm

Herskerstad wrote:Lithuania had about the same stability as a Jenga Tower on top of an active jackhammer. Would never happen.

It's not so much that it was unstable, as that it was cripplingly decentralized, and dominated by Poland.
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Postby Sun Wukong » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:43 pm

HuangLao Union wrote:Modern Lithuania is a NATO stooge. I can only hope them and the poles come to their senses.

You'll be singing a different tune when the Restored Commonwealth jackboots its way over your homeland.
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