Ireland rejects extradition to US as prison inhumane

[Autonomous Titoists]

How many failed rehabilitation exist, please sourse first the number of attempted rehabilitations.

That's not my job man, I didn't bring rehab up.

Yes blow it away because it isn't your problem. That's how debates work just casually not doing anything about presented information. Donald Trump? Is that you?

[Ifreann]

Have you considered that if people get what they deserve then life is fair? Or that is life isn't fair, then people will not get what they deserve, but rather more or less than that?

---

Remember when America invaded Russia to get Edward Snowden back?

He never committed an act of terrorism as such I do not see how your example proves your point.

But he did commit crimes against your government and then fled to Russia, where he remains to this day. If America won't attack Russia to get a single criminal back, they certainly wouldn't attack Ireland for one.

[Scyobayrynn]

I dunno, we don't really rehabilitate people so it would be awfully hard to measure that.

My point is you can't rehabilitate criminals.

You know 11% of the population of the United States self idetifies as Irish. Out of all the nationalities represented in the US 11 out of every 100 people claim Irish heritage.

So quite literally, its the last nation on earth this country would try to harm... Do you like read or investigate the veracity of anything? Or is this like that movie Idle Hands? Is this all beyond your control?

I don't believe any self-identifying American of Irish descent would be angry enough to do anything if we punished Ireland for this childish act.

Yeah its too bad that there aren't influential Irish Americans, you know, like the Carnegie family, Bush family, Kennedy family,
Significant numbers of the Senate and the House both Democrats and Republicans. John fucking Malone.

Then there is pesky campaign contribution thing... Yeah, let's see insult 11% of the population destroy political career, and likely devastate you're ability to get private sector firms to touch you.

Did I mention Joe Biden is fucking Irish...and Reagan.

Yeah, lol. Great plan.

You don't believe they would do anything, because they woildnt need to.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Newsflash, rehabilitation is better than punishment.

Depends on one's goals and priorities. If you desire to turn persons who commit crimes into productive members of society, then yes it is better. But if revenge and making things even and balanced for the victim is the most important desire, then punishment works fine. I personally am of the former when it comes to criminals. I don't care about them for all I care about is the victim and making it so that what was lost to them is restored, and if that can't be done then atleast I can make things even.

I'm kinda confused by that, you say you're of the former but then go with the latter. Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but which is it?

[Byzantium Imperial]

He never committed an act of terrorism as such I do not see how your example proves your point.

But he did commit crimes against your government and then fled to Russia, where he remains to this day. If America won't attack Russia to get a single criminal back, they certainly wouldn't attack Ireland for one.

I will agree with Ifreann here, Snowden did far more damage then this terror suspect in Ireland ever did. But then again, attacking a nation state with a large military, feirce nationalist streek, and state of the art air defenses is different than a country completely reliant on us for their defense. But then again this is hypothetical anyone, since no one has proposed invading Ireland to get the terror suspect. The only person important enough to invade a country for was Bin Laden.

[Kazarogkai]

He never committed an act of terrorism as such I do not see how your example proves your point.

The US government didn't like someone ratting them out. Everytime a whistleblower shows up he's the one who gets in trouble not the peopel committing the crimes. It wasn't terrorism, but it was "criminal." How dare he inform the populace of our unconstitutional activities.

But he isn't a terrorist, and that is the entire point of my well.. point. That if a someone commits a TERRORIST ACT within are nation and then escapes and is harbored by another then it can be considered a hostile action and prosecuted as such. There is a massive difference between a run of the mill criminal and someone who commits what is essential a hostile action that can be classified as declaration of war by that person and by any who harbor and ally with them.

[Autonomous Titoists]

The US government didn't like someone ratting them out. Everytime a whistleblower shows up he's the one who gets in trouble not the peopel committing the crimes. It wasn't terrorism, but it was "criminal." How dare he inform the populace of our unconstitutional activities.

But he isn't a terrorist, and that is the entire point of my well.. point. That if a someone commits a TERRORIST ACT within are nation and then escapes and is harbored by another then it can be considered a hostile action and prosecuted as such. There is a massive difference between a run of the mill criminal and someone who commits what is essential a hostile action that can be classified as declaration of war by that person and by any who harbor and ally with them.

Extraditing extends to more than acts of terror. There are cases "before" terrorism of the US extraditing people. I'm going to find some good examples real quick.

[Kazarogkai]

Depends on one's goals and priorities. If you desire to turn persons who commit crimes into productive members of society, then yes it is better. But if revenge and making things even and balanced for the victim is the most important desire, then punishment works fine. I personally am of the former when it comes to criminals. I don't care about them for all I care about is the victim and making it so that what was lost to them is restored, and if that can't be done then atleast I can make things even.

I'm kinda confused by that, you say you're of the former but then go with the latter. Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but which is it?

Language mishap

I always get confused with the terms former and latter. When I said Former I was referring to the second desire not the first, which in this case is the latter.

I hate English sometimes

[Autonomous Titoists]

I dunno, we don't really rehabilitate people so it would be awfully hard to measure that.

My point is you can't rehabilitate criminals.

You know 11% of the population of the United States self idetifies as Irish. Out of all the nationalities represented in the US 11 out of every 100 people claim Irish heritage.

So quite literally, its the last nation on earth this country would try to harm... Do you like read or investigate the veracity of anything? Or is this like that movie Idle Hands? Is this all beyond your control?

I don't believe any self-identifying American of Irish descent would be angry enough to do anything if we punished Ireland for this childish act.

So because we don't even make an effort to rehabilitate criminals rehabilitation can't work ever in any way? That's definitely reasonable.

[Scyobayrynn]

He never committed an act of terrorism as such I do not see how your example proves your point.

The US government didn't like someone ratting them out. Everytime a whistleblower shows up he's the one who gets in trouble not the peopel committing the crimes. It wasn't terrorism, but it was "criminal." How dare he inform the populace of our unconstitutional activities.

Espionage, he's guilty, its not even a debate.
Edit: let's not derail, my fault I'm sorry.

[Autonomous Titoists]

http://www.freeexistence.org/us_extradition.html
Not an example but it does start off with a definition of extradition and explains it pretty thoroughly.

[Autonomous Titoists]

The US government didn't like someone ratting them out. Everytime a whistleblower shows up he's the one who gets in trouble not the peopel committing the crimes. It wasn't terrorism, but it was "criminal." How dare he inform the populace of our unconstitutional activities.

Espionage, he's guilty, its not even a debate.
Edit: let's not derail, my fault I'm sorry.

You're right he was guilty but he did inform the US people of something the government was doing that was unconstitutional. And that is the last thing I will say on the matter in this thread if you want to continue this feel free to TG.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I'm kinda confused by that, you say you're of the former but then go with the latter. Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but which is it?

Language mishap

I always get confused with the terms former and latter. When I said Former I was referring to the second desire not the first, which in this case is the latter.

I hate English sometimes

I entirely have to disagree with you then, simply punishing someone with no rehabilitation does nothing to fix the problem and almost certainly ensures repeat offenders or people like me.

But this is starting to get off topic methinks.

[Kazarogkai]

But he isn't a terrorist, and that is the entire point of my well.. point. That if a someone commits a TERRORIST ACT within are nation and then escapes and is harbored by another then it can be considered a hostile action and prosecuted as such. There is a massive difference between a run of the mill criminal and someone who commits what is essential a hostile action that can be classified as declaration of war by that person and by any who harbor and ally with them.

Extraditing extends to more than acts of terror. There are cases "before" terrorism of the US extraditing people. I'm going to find some good examples real quick.

I never stated that was the case. I was only stating that the only time when we should consider another country refusing to extradite to us as a hostile action is only under that circumstances. Personally I don't believe we should bother with such a thing as extraditing a run of the mill criminal. I am more than happy with them being in self imposed exile and making it so that they can only return if they agree to accept the punishment and suffer it. I find this arrangement good enough for are purposes.

[Autonomous Titoists]

Extraditing extends to more than acts of terror. There are cases "before" terrorism of the US extraditing people. I'm going to find some good examples real quick.

I never stated that was the case. I was only stating that the only time when we should consider another country refusing to extradite to us as a hostile action is only under that circumstances. Personally I don't believe we should bother with such a thing as extraditing a run of the mill criminal. I am more than happy with them being in self imposed exile and making it so that they can only return if they agree to accept the punishment and suffer it. I find this arrangement good enough for are purposes.

Oh I'm sorry, that was a bit of miscommunication and misunderstanding. Mmkay. Now we're on the same page. Yeah I don't think we should extradite criminals unless they're like the Zodiac killer or something of that nature.

[Ifreann]

My point is you can't rehabilitate criminals.
I don't believe any self-identifying American of Irish descent would be angry enough to do anything if we punished Ireland for this childish act.

Yeah its too bad that there aren't influential Irish Americans, you know, like the Carnegie family, Bush family, Kennedy family,
Significant numbers of the Senate and the House both Democrats and Republicans. John fucking Malone.

Then there is pesky campaign contribution thing... Yeah, let's see insult 11% of the population destroy political career, and likely devastate you're ability to get private sector firms to touch you.

Did I mention Joe Biden is fucking Irish...and Reagan.

Don't forget Obama.

---

But he did commit crimes against your government and then fled to Russia, where he remains to this day. If America won't attack Russia to get a single criminal back, they certainly wouldn't attack Ireland for one.

I will agree with Ifreann here, Snowden did far more damage then this terror suspect in Ireland ever did. But then again, attacking a nation state with a large military, feirce nationalist streek, and state of the art air defenses is different than a country completely reliant on us for their defense.

Ireland is not reliant on the US for our defence.

[Kazarogkai]

Language mishap

I always get confused with the terms former and latter. When I said Former I was referring to the second desire not the first, which in this case is the latter.

I hate English sometimes

I entirely have to disagree with you then, simply punishing someone with no rehabilitation does nothing to fix the problem and almost certainly ensures repeat offenders or people like me.

But this is starting to get off topic methinks.

It does fix the problem, the victim has been restored and compensated for their loss and that is all that is important. If the person repeats then o well, punish them again. I honestly don't care if they repeat a crime, so long as they pay for what they have done then it satisfies justice.

[Byzantium Imperial]

Yeah its too bad that there aren't influential Irish Americans, you know, like the Carnegie family, Bush family, Kennedy family,
Significant numbers of the Senate and the House both Democrats and Republicans. John fucking Malone.

Then there is pesky campaign contribution thing... Yeah, let's see insult 11% of the population destroy political career, and likely devastate you're ability to get private sector firms to touch you.

Did I mention Joe Biden is fucking Irish...and Reagan.

Don't forget Obama.

---

I will agree with Ifreann here, Snowden did far more damage then this terror suspect in Ireland ever did. But then again, attacking a nation state with a large military, feirce nationalist streek, and state of the art air defenses is different than a country completely reliant on us for their defense.

Ireland is not reliant on the US for our defence.

Sure you arnt

[Autonomous Titoists]

I entirely have to disagree with you then, simply punishing someone with no rehabilitation does nothing to fix the problem and almost certainly ensures repeat offenders or people like me.

But this is starting to get off topic methinks.

It does fix the problem, the victim has been restored and compensated for their loss and that is all that is important. If the person repeats then o well, punish them again. I honestly don't care if they repeat a crime, so long as they pay for what they have done then it satisfies justice.

And what if the repeated crime is on yourself? No one gives a shit until something hits home.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I entirely have to disagree with you then, simply punishing someone with no rehabilitation does nothing to fix the problem and almost certainly ensures repeat offenders or people like me.

But this is starting to get off topic methinks.

It does fix the problem, the victim has been restored and compensated for their loss and that is all that is important. If the person repeats then o well, punish them again. I honestly don't care if they repeat a crime, so long as they pay for what they have done then it satisfies justice.

That's a recipe for failure.

[Autonomous Titoists]

It does fix the problem, the victim has been restored and compensated for their loss and that is all that is important. If the person repeats then o well, punish them again. I honestly don't care if they repeat a crime, so long as they pay for what they have done then it satisfies justice.

That's a recipe for failure.

Recipe? We've been baking for years and now we have shitty ass brownies everywhere. No offense to any former criminals, just statistically repeat offenders happen, due to the circumstances of being fucked in the ass, repeatedly.

[Ifreann]

Don't forget Obama.

---

Ireland is not reliant on the US for our defence.

Sure you dont

We're really not. There's no one for us to defend against.

[Washington Resistance Army]

That's a recipe for failure.

Recipe? We've been baking for years and now we have shitty ass brownies everywhere. No offense to any former criminals, just statistically repeat offenders happen, due to the circumstances of being fucked in the ass, repeatedly.

No offense taken

I just don't understand the idea of only punishing someone and then thinking that accomplishes anything. That's sadly only one of many reasons our justice system is fucked.

[Autonomous Titoists]

Recipe? We've been baking for years and now we have shitty ass brownies everywhere. No offense to any former criminals, just statistically repeat offenders happen, due to the circumstances of being fucked in the ass, repeatedly.

No offense taken

I just don't understand the idea of only punishing someone and then thinking that accomplishes anything. That's sadly only one of many reasons our justice system is fucked.

It solves nothing, just rinse and repeat in an unfortunately large amount of cases.

[Scyobayrynn]

Yeah its too bad that there aren't influential Irish Americans, you know, like the Carnegie family, Bush family, Kennedy family,
Significant numbers of the Senate and the House both Democrats and Republicans. John fucking Malone.

Then there is pesky campaign contribution thing... Yeah, let's see insult 11% of the population destroy political career, and likely devastate you're ability to get private sector firms to touch you.

Did I mention Joe Biden is fucking Irish...and Reagan.

Don't forget Obama.

---

I will agree with Ifreann here, Snowden did far more damage then this terror suspect in Ireland ever did. But then again, attacking a nation state with a large military, feirce nationalist streek, and state of the art air defenses is different than a country completely reliant on us for their defense.

Ireland is not reliant on the US for our defence.

I omitted Obama because I could not imagine any direction for the discussion of a Black Liberal Irish American wasn't going to devolve into slurs that would ensure me a 30 ban if I responsed.