Race and IQ

[Napkiraly]

Cesare Lombroso is boss, yo.

Which Ninja Turtle was he?

The one who didn't return from their first mission to stop the Vietnamese gang terrorizing Why, Arizona.

RIP in turtle stew.

[Socialist Tera]

Op uses racist pseudoscience.

[Caracasus]

Op uses racist pseudoscience.

That's basically 50% of this thread. The other 50% is people calling bullshit on OP's theory

[Socialist Tera]

Op uses racist pseudoscience.

That's basically 50% of this thread. The other 50% is people calling bullshit on OP's theory

I had a read through and laughed. I feel OP and Goebbels would be good friends.

[Sun Wukong]

I've always sort of marveled at the idea that Africans are less intelligent because they come from the savage environment that created human intelligence.

[WCJNSTBH]

I've always sort of marveled at the idea that Africans are less intelligent because they come from the savage environment that created human intelligence.

Lol. Excellent point.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I've always sort of marveled at the idea that Africans are less intelligent because they come from the savage environment that created human intelligence.

You don't need to be smart to survive some of the most hazardous environments on Earth, but intelligence is necessary for Europe and East Asia.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

I've always sort of marveled at the idea that Africans are less intelligent because they come from the savage environment that created human intelligence.

The idea, I gather, is that all humans reached the intelligence 'benchmark' afforded by living in Africa, but when the descendents of all non-African populations left our home continent, the changes in lifestyle necessitated by the new environments of Eurasia and North/South America resulted in some populations becoming smarter than others. Of course, exactly how being a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic pastoralist in the hills of Ethiopia is substantially different from being a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic pastoralist in the hills of Anatolia or southern Spain is never really touched upon.

[Sun Wukong]

I've always sort of marveled at the idea that Africans are less intelligent because they come from the savage environment that created human intelligence.

You don't need to be smart to survive some of the most hazardous environments on Earth, but intelligence is necessary for Europe and East Asia.

Exactly. Everybody knows that the way you defeat a lion, is to be stronger and faster then it. Smarts have nothing to do with this.

[Sun Wukong]

I've always sort of marveled at the idea that Africans are less intelligent because they come from the savage environment that created human intelligence.

The idea, I gather, is that all humans reached the intelligence 'benchmark' afforded by living in Africa, but when the descendents of all non-African populations left our home continent, the changes in lifestyle necessitated by the new environments of Eurasia and North America resulted in some populations becoming smarter than others. Of course, exactly how being a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic pastoralist in the hills of Ethiopia is substantially different from being a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic pastoralist in the hills of Anatolia or southern Spain is never really touched upon.

I think you give these people too much credit.

[Skaaneland Continued]

Credit isn't the same as no credit.

[United Marxist Nations]

It is claimed that racism lowers the self-esteem of blacks, lowering their IQ scores. In fact, American blacks have higher self-esteem than American whites, with Asians having the lowest self-esteem and highest IQ scores. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12002695

See! Being edgy and full of angst means you are smart! Take that, conformists!!!!!!!

kek

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Credit isn't the same as no credit.

Huh?

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

The idea, I gather, is that all humans reached the intelligence 'benchmark' afforded by living in Africa, but when the descendents of all non-African populations left our home continent, the changes in lifestyle necessitated by the new environments of Eurasia and North America resulted in some populations becoming smarter than others. Of course, exactly how being a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic pastoralist in the hills of Ethiopia is substantially different from being a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic pastoralist in the hills of Anatolia or southern Spain is never really touched upon.

I think you give these people too much credit.

Probably. I like to stay optimistic, though. The alternative is staring right into the yawning void of human inadequacy, and down that road lies only madness and despair.

[Norepinephrinistania]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.

There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

[Diopolis]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.
(Image)
There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

That doesn't necessarily make them smarter than africans, however.

[Norepinephrinistania]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.
(Image)
There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

That doesn't necessarily make them smarter than africans, however.

Do you think chimpanzees or humans are smarter?

[USS Monitor]

It's often claimed that race or ethnicity have nothing to do with intelligence. It seems to me that this belief is mislead. Human ethnic groups have lived in separation from each other for hundreds of thousands of years, enough time for significant evolutionary change to take place. There are different evolutionary pressures in sub-Saharan Africa as in Eurasia. It's safe to say it takes more intelligence to survive in some climates than in others, and therefore natural selection would raise the intelligence of humans in some climatic areas. Only 1% of the black (African American) population has an IQ over 120, but 9% of the white population does in the USA. As intelligence is an estimated 55% genetic, it would make senses different races have different genes regarding brain size, shape, and general intelligence. There is a documented difference in the shapes and sizes of racial groups.

(Image)The definitive study of race differences in brain size was carried out on approximately 20,000 crania by Professor Kenneth Beals and his colleagues at Oregon State University. Their results for endocranial volume, measured in cubic centimeters for the major races were as follows: North East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans): 1,416 cm; Europeans: 1,369cm; Native American Indians: 1,366cm; Southeast Asians: 1,332cm; Pacific Islanders: 1,317cm; South Asians: 1,293cm; Sub-Saharan Africans: 1,282cm; Bushmen: 1,270cm; Australian Aborigines: 1,225cm. These brain size differences correspond with intelligence differences derived from IQ tests given by Prof. Richard Lynn, who finds IQs of 105 for North East Asians,100 for Europeans, and so on downwards to 62 for Australian Aborigines and 54 for the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert.

It seems naive to think that with different shaped skulls, Africans would be just as intelligent. One cranial shape must be superior to fostering brain development than the other. There is a strong correlation between brain size and intelligence.

"Professor Philip A. Vernon of the University of Western Ontario and his colleagues have summarized studies of the correlation between intelligence and head size, and the correlation between intelligence and the size of the brain itself. Every one of 54 studies that measured head size showed a positive relationship, with an overall correlation of 0.18. Research using CT (computerized axial tomography) and MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) gives a more accurate measure of brain size, and the 11 studies that used these methods found an overall correlation with intelligence of 0.40. Prof. Vernon and his colleagues conclude that brain size must be a determinant of intelligence because larger brains have more neurons and this gives them greater processing capacity."

There is also a strong correlation between brain size and body size, which you didn't adjust for.

Having left Africa, Euraians evolved further away from chimpanzees. This is supported by DNA evidence.

(Image)

That chart doesn't say what you think it says. The "distance" to chimpanzees is the same in each column.

It is claimed that racism lowers the self-esteem of blacks, lowering their IQ scores. In fact, American blacks have higher self-esteem than American whites, with Asians having the lowest self-esteem and highest IQ scores. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12002695

Test anxiety is not the same as self-esteem.

It is also claimed that poverty is the cause of low black IQ scores, but this is refuted by high-income blacks scoring lower than low-income whites on the SAT, shown to be a decent proxy for IQ and general intelligence.
(Image)

"Culture" in general is cited as a reason for low African IQ, but the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study showed black babies adopted by whites had an IQ consistent with black-raised black babies of the same income level.
The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study showed blacks adopted by whites had an IQ of 89 at age 17, with the whites adopted by whites having an IQ of 106.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota ... tion_Study

The results of the transracial adoption studies are interesting, and probably the best evidence you're going to find if you want to argue that some races are naturally more intelligent. But being adopted by white people doesn't control for the way people are treated by their teachers and classmates, or just the psychological effect of being in an environment where you look obviously different from the people around you.

If you've never been in an environment where you were a minority, I recommend trying it just to see how it feels. Even when nobody is behaving hatefully, it still feels different than being surrounded by people like you. And it's not a subtle difference at all. It is very noticeable.

Many scientists having studied evolution concluded on genetic influence of intelligence being different in different races, including Charles Darwin and James Watson, discoverer of DNA.

Consider the time period when they worked and the level of societal racism they lived with. Neither of them did exhaustive research on the subject of race and intelligence, so their conclusions should be taken with a pile of salt.

The topic of discussion is whether or not have different evolutionary pressure on different geographic regions of the world resulted in different levels of average intelligence between groups of homo sapiens.

"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so." - James Watson

It's possible, but it's difficult to get a straight answer because people are quite sensitive about it and people on both sides of the issue have a bad habit of distorting the facts to suit their own agenda. You are guilty of this was well. Even though I consider this an unsettled question, I still had to argue against you more than agree with you because you made intellectually dishonest claims -- particularly the thing about chimpanzees.

But let's consider what it would mean, hypothetically, if some races really were more intelligent on average. Would it change your own individual intelligence? No. Would it change the individual intelligence of the black guy next door? No. There would still be a need to evaluate people on an individual level for the purposes of hiring, college admissions, etc. Does a person with an IQ of 120 have more legal rights than a person with an IQ of 100? No. So everyone still needs their legal rights.

Another thing to consider is that hereditary differences are not all genetic. They can also be epigenetic. Epigenetic differences are related to recent family history, not evolution from tens of thousands of years ago, which means that things like 19th century slavery can affect modern people at a biological level.

[Mavorpen]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.
(Image)
There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

Funny how you selectively respond to posts and then disappear and come back, not addressing any of the posts you left off at and then act all high and mighty pretending like everyone else is losing because they haven't addressed something.

Also, I'm not sure you even read that image. It says the genetic distance between Nigerians and Chimpanzees is the same as the Japanese and English.

[USS Monitor]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.
(Image)
There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

That doesn't say there is a genetic similarity between Nigerians and chimpanzees. Am I seriously the first person to point that out? It says English, Japanese, and Nigerians all have the same genetic distance to chimpanzees.

[Mavorpen]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.
(Image)
There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

That doesn't say there is a genetic similarity between Nigerians and chimpanzees. Am I seriously the first person to point that out? It says English, Japanese, and Nigerians all have the same genetic distance to chimpanzees.

I just beat you, so you're second.

Though, given his track record in failing to respond to people who destroy his arguments and/or simply failing to read other people's posts, I wouldn't be surprised if we weren't the first ones to point that out.

[USS Monitor]

Also, I'm not sure you even read that image. It says the genetic distance between Nigerians and Chimpanzees is the same as the Japanese and English.

So I am not the only one who noticed that... That is a relief.

[Norepinephrinistania]

It's often claimed that race or ethnicity have nothing to do with intelligence. It seems to me that this belief is mislead. Human ethnic groups have lived in separation from each other for hundreds of thousands of years, enough time for significant evolutionary change to take place. There are different evolutionary pressures in sub-Saharan Africa as in Eurasia. It's safe to say it takes more intelligence to survive in some climates than in others, and therefore natural selection would raise the intelligence of humans in some climatic areas. Only 1% of the black (African American) population has an IQ over 120, but 9% of the white population does in the USA. As intelligence is an estimated 55% genetic, it would make senses different races have different genes regarding brain size, shape, and general intelligence. There is a documented difference in the shapes and sizes of racial groups.

(Image)The definitive study of race differences in brain size was carried out on approximately 20,000 crania by Professor Kenneth Beals and his colleagues at Oregon State University. Their results for endocranial volume, measured in cubic centimeters for the major races were as follows: North East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans): 1,416 cm; Europeans: 1,369cm; Native American Indians: 1,366cm; Southeast Asians: 1,332cm; Pacific Islanders: 1,317cm; South Asians: 1,293cm; Sub-Saharan Africans: 1,282cm; Bushmen: 1,270cm; Australian Aborigines: 1,225cm. These brain size differences correspond with intelligence differences derived from IQ tests given by Prof. Richard Lynn, who finds IQs of 105 for North East Asians,100 for Europeans, and so on downwards to 62 for Australian Aborigines and 54 for the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert.

It seems naive to think that with different shaped skulls, Africans would be just as intelligent. One cranial shape must be superior to fostering brain development than the other. There is a strong correlation between brain size and intelligence.

"Professor Philip A. Vernon of the University of Western Ontario and his colleagues have summarized studies of the correlation between intelligence and head size, and the correlation between intelligence and the size of the brain itself. Every one of 54 studies that measured head size showed a positive relationship, with an overall correlation of 0.18. Research using CT (computerized axial tomography) and MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) gives a more accurate measure of brain size, and the 11 studies that used these methods found an overall correlation with intelligence of 0.40. Prof. Vernon and his colleagues conclude that brain size must be a determinant of intelligence because larger brains have more neurons and this gives them greater processing capacity."

There is also a strong correlation between brain size and body size, which you didn't adjust for.

Having left Africa, Euraians evolved further away from chimpanzees. This is supported by DNA evidence.

(Image)

That chart doesn't say what you think it says. The "distance" to chimpanzees is the same in each column.

It is claimed that racism lowers the self-esteem of blacks, lowering their IQ scores. In fact, American blacks have higher self-esteem than American whites, with Asians having the lowest self-esteem and highest IQ scores. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12002695

Test anxiety is not the same as self-esteem.

It is also claimed that poverty is the cause of low black IQ scores, but this is refuted by high-income blacks scoring lower than low-income whites on the SAT, shown to be a decent proxy for IQ and general intelligence.
(Image)

"Culture" in general is cited as a reason for low African IQ, but the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study showed black babies adopted by whites had an IQ consistent with black-raised black babies of the same income level.
The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study showed blacks adopted by whites had an IQ of 89 at age 17, with the whites adopted by whites having an IQ of 106.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota ... tion_Study

The results of the transracial adoption studies are interesting, and probably the best evidence you're going to find if you want to argue that some races are naturally more intelligent. But being adopted by white people doesn't control for the way people are treated by their teachers and classmates, or just the psychological effect of being in an environment where you look obviously different from the people around you.

If you've never been in an environment where you were a minority, I recommend trying it just to see how it feels. Even when nobody is behaving hatefully, it still feels different than being surrounded by people like you. And it's not a subtle difference at all. It is very noticeable.

Many scientists having studied evolution concluded on genetic influence of intelligence being different in different races, including Charles Darwin and James Watson, discoverer of DNA.

Consider the time period when they worked and the level of societal racism they lived with. Neither of them did exhaustive research on the subject of race and intelligence, so their conclusions should be taken with a pile of salt.

The topic of discussion is whether or not have different evolutionary pressure on different geographic regions of the world resulted in different levels of average intelligence between groups of homo sapiens.

"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so." - James Watson

It's possible, but it's difficult to get a straight answer because people are quite sensitive about it and people on both sides of the issue have a bad habit of distorting the facts to suit their own agenda. You are guilty of this was well. Even though I consider this an unsettled question, I still had to argue against you more than agree with you because you made intellectually dishonest claims -- particularly the thing about chimpanzees.

But let's consider what it would mean, hypothetically, if some races really were more intelligent on average. Would it change your own individual intelligence? No. Would it change the individual intelligence of the black guy next door? No. There would still be a need to evaluate people on an individual level for the purposes of hiring, college admissions, etc. Does a person with an IQ of 120 have more legal rights than a person with an IQ of 100? No. So everyone still needs their legal rights.

Another thing to consider is that hereditary differences are not all genetic. They can also be epigenetic. Epigenetic differences are related to recent family history, not evolution from tens of thousands of years ago, which means that things like 19th century slavery can affect modern people at a biological level.

I think that 15+ IQ points, a full standard deviation cannot just be due to environmental factors outside the home. We often give blacks preferential treatment in academics. To me, explaining away a full standard deviation or more of IQ with silly things like test anxiety (IQ tests aren't graded) is the height of naivete.

[Diopolis]

That doesn't necessarily make them smarter than africans, however.

Do you think chimpanzees or humans are smarter?

I think blatant logical fallacies are smarter. *nods*

[Norepinephrinistania]

No one has been able to address the genetic similarity of sub-Saharan Africans to chimpanzees.
(Image)
There has clearly been significant evolution that has occurred in Eurasian populations since they left Africa, making them genetically distinct through the effects of natural selection.

That doesn't say there is a genetic similarity between Nigerians and chimpanzees. Am I seriously the first person to point that out? It says English, Japanese, and Nigerians all have the same genetic distance to chimpanzees.

It shows that there is genetic difference between Eurasians and Africans. The Eurasians cluster more together, with the Africans last.