Replace the UN with something not involving Russia?

[Psichikou]

We are not even sure who shot that plane, and even if it's the russians, it's not like the US doesn't regularly kill civilians in its countless war. If there is one country to kick from UN, it's USA, not Russia. War is horrible, and civilians always die in wars, that's why we should do everything we can to avoid them - unlike the US who keeps invading one country after another, and stirring chaos in one country after another (even for Ukraine, the whole mess started when the CIA organized a coup against the elected president to put fascists in power).

Hahaha! Oh, wow... Where to start?
Props to you sir/ma'am, you just made my day!

[Kubra]

Well, if that's the case, you can't excuse any act of war either offensively or defensively, so why condemn one particular perpetrator among all others?

How did you get that out of my post?

Well, what is the qualitative difference between the mistaken shooting of an aircraft with 300 civilians on board and the death of thousands of Ukrainian civilians merely as the result of collateral damage in the course of the conflict?

[The Carlisle]

How did you get that out of my post?

Well, what is the qualitative difference between the mistaken shooting of an aircraft with 300 civilians on board and the death of thousands of Ukrainian civilians merely as the result of collateral damage in the course of the conflict?

What's the point of pointing this out? You think I'm intentionally being selective with this event?

[Kubra]

Well, what is the qualitative difference between the mistaken shooting of an aircraft with 300 civilians on board and the death of thousands of Ukrainian civilians merely as the result of collateral damage in the course of the conflict?

What's the point of pointing this out? You think I'm intentionally being selective with this event?

In a word: yes. How can one condemn any particular act of mass slaughter whilst in a slaughterhouse?

[Infected Mushroom]

No.

That would be discrimination against Russia.

[The Carlisle]

What's the point of pointing this out? You think I'm intentionally being selective with this event?

In a word: yes. How can one condemn any particular act of mass slaughter whilst in a slaughterhouse?

I condemn it because I think killing civilians in all situations is despicable and entirely unjustifiable.

[Kubra]

In a word: yes. How can one condemn any particular act of mass slaughter whilst in a slaughterhouse?

I condemn it because I think killing civilians in all situations is despicable and entirely unjustifiable.

Then you condemn the war itself and its participants, instead of just those who shot down the jet.

[New Reutlingen]

Yes, while we're at it, let's kick out every country that doesn't fit to our specific agenda.

Sweden, Israel, Germany, France, Italy, Canada, Mexico, you know.

[The Carlisle]

I condemn it because I think killing civilians in all situations is despicable and entirely unjustifiable.

Then you condemn the war itself and its participants, instead of just those who shot down the jet.

No. Stop trying to stuff words into my mouth thank you very much. Me not liking civilian casualties doesn't mean I condemn all wars. Wars of defense, wars of survival (like WW2 for the Soviets). Wars in general are terrible and causes immense suffering to those effected by it. I hope they never happen and if they do swiftly end. But I'm gonna scrutinize both sides, even the ones I support.

[Kubra]

Then you condemn the war itself and its participants, instead of just those who shot down the jet.

No. Stop trying to stuff words into my mouth thank you very much. Me not liking civilian casualties doesn't mean I condemn all wars. Wars of defense, wars of survival (like WW2 for the Soviets). Wars in general are terrible and causes immense suffering to those effected by it. I hope they never happen and if they do swiftly end. But I'm gonna scrutinize both sides, even the ones I support.

You find the act of killing civilians unjustifiable in all situations, but you can justify wars? That can hardly be said to be finding the killing of civilians unjustifiable in all situations. If I am putting words in your mouth, it is only because I assume you'd take a consistent position, rather than one so contradictory.

[Imperializt Russia]

A year ago, Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine shot down a civilian airplane, killing hundreds of people.

And yet, today, Russia still has a role in the UN.

I'm not privy to the details...

And there, realistically, is the end of the discussion.

It wouldn't be NSG without meaningless "debate" over a manufactured non-issue.

[Grave_n_idle]

And there, realistically, is the end of the discussion.

It wouldn't be NSG without meaningless "debate" over a manufactured non-issue.

*nods*

Eventually, you just get fatigued by the whole "I know absolutely nothing about this issue that might or might not be real, can someone please get outraged?" theme.

[Harkback Union]

We are not even sure who shot that plane, and even if it's the russians, it's not like the US doesn't regularly kill civilians in its countless war. If there is one country to kick from UN, it's USA, not Russia. War is horrible, and civilians always die in wars, that's why we should do everything we can to avoid them - unlike the US who keeps invading one country after another, and stirring chaos in one country after another (even for Ukraine, the whole mess started when the CIA organized a coup against the elected president to put fascists in power).

Hahaha! Oh, wow... Where to start?
Props to you sir/ma'am, you just made my day!

Lets start by reconciling with reality.

The US navy, not some US backed separatists or terrorists, the Navy of the US of A shot down an airliner back in 88.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

And did the man shooting down the plane get prosecuted?
Nope! The got medals! Even though it was obvious they made a mistake, first they sailed into Iranian waters chasing some boats from where the iranians allegedly fired at an american helicopter with small-arms, they spotted something on the radar, flying through a commercial air corridor and then they somehow forgot to contect the plane on air traffic frequencies before concluding that its a military jet and firing 2 missiles at it. Keep in mind that even if it was a military jet, the US would have no right to shoot it down.

[Imperializt Russia]

According to records, the ship crew believed they were under attack by an Iranian Air Force F-14 on an attack heading.

Since there is literally no reason to knowingly fire upon a commercial airliner.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Hahaha! Oh, wow... Where to start?
Props to you sir/ma'am, you just made my day!

Lets start by reconciling with reality.

The US navy, not some US backed separatists or terrorists, the Navy of the US of A shot down an airliner back in 88.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

And did the man shooting down the plane get prosecuted?
Nope! The got medals! Even though it was obvious they made a mistake, first they sailed into Iranian waters chasing some boats from where the iranians allegedly fired at an american helicopter with small-arms, they spotted something on the radar, flying through a commercial air corridor and then they somehow forgot to contect the plane on air traffic frequencies before concluding that its a military jet and firing 2 missiles at it. Keep in mind that even if it was a military jet, the US would have no right to shoot it down.

They US would have the right to shoot it down. Self defence is the only form of armed violence not requiring a UN mandate to execute. It's entire legal to shoot down a jet, if it's clearly an attack. Now, this even was unfortunate, and I'd rather have those persons responsible being somehow reprimanded, but the US would have the right to shoot it down if it was a military jet.

[Balkano-Slavia]

This year, probably the most important geopolitical event since the Cold War happened. But you probably don't know about it because it wasn't covered in the western press. On July 10th, there was a joint BRICS/SCO/EEU summit in Ufa. India and Pakistan are becoming full members of the SCO, and now that sanctions on Iran have been lifted it's quite obvious they will too. Do you know what that will make? An alliance of Russia, China, Iran, India, Pakistan, and Central Asia. Factor in allies of the SCO countries like Belarus, Serbia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Syria (the government, not the rebels who eat human organs), Vietnam, Argentina etc. and you get a lot of land, a lot of resources to build things on the land, a lot of people to build them, and a lot of military to defend it. Good luck trying to invade that. And replacing the UN with something that doesn't include Russia doesn't make the UN seem very 'neutral'.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

This year, probably the most important geopolitical event since the Cold War happened. But you probably don't know about it because it wasn't covered in the western press. On July 10th, there was a joint BRICS/SCO/EEU summit in Ufa. India and Pakistan are becoming full members of the SCO, and now that sanctions on Iran have been lifted it's quite obvious they will too. Do you know what that will make? An alliance of Russia, China, Iran, India, Pakistan, and Central Asia. Factor in allies of the SCO countries like Belarus, Serbia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Syria (the government, not the rebels who eat human organs), Vietnam, Argentina etc. and you get a lot of land, a lot of resources to build things on the land, a lot of people to build them, and a lot of military to defend it. Good luck trying to invade that. And replacing the UN with something that doesn't include Russia doesn't make the UN seem very 'neutral'.

Yeah, India and Pakistan as allies. Central Asia wanting to work with Russia. Whohoo.

And rebels who eat human organs? I do seem to think you get your news from a single source, and this source doesn't sound very unbiased to me.

[Washington Resistance Army]

This year, probably the most important geopolitical event since the Cold War happened. But you probably don't know about it because it wasn't covered in the western press. On July 10th, there was a joint BRICS/SCO/EEU summit in Ufa. India and Pakistan are becoming full members of the SCO, and now that sanctions on Iran have been lifted it's quite obvious they will too. Do you know what that will make? An alliance of Russia, China, Iran, India, Pakistan, and Central Asia. Factor in allies of the SCO countries like Belarus, Serbia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Syria (the government, not the rebels who eat human organs), Vietnam, Argentina etc. and you get a lot of land, a lot of resources to build things on the land, a lot of people to build them, and a lot of military to defend it. Good luck trying to invade that. And replacing the UN with something that doesn't include Russia doesn't make the UN seem very 'neutral'.

Yeah, India and Pakistan as allies. Central Asia wanting to work with Russia. Whohoo.

And rebels who eat human organs? I do seem to think you get your news from a single source, and this source doesn't sound very unbiased to me.

Actually I vaguely remember something about that from a while back. Some of the rebels were cutting hearts out of dead government soldiers and eating them iirc.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Yeah, India and Pakistan as allies. Central Asia wanting to work with Russia. Whohoo.

And rebels who eat human organs? I do seem to think you get your news from a single source, and this source doesn't sound very unbiased to me.

Actually I vaguely remember something about that from a while back. Some of the rebels were cutting hearts out of dead government soldiers and eating them iirc.

Yeah, but I doubt that actually happened. It sounds far too much like your common wartime propaganda 'our enemies are monsters and they feast on human babies'. The Japanese thought the same of the Americans when they began island hopping.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yeah, India and Pakistan as allies. Central Asia wanting to work with Russia. Whohoo.

And rebels who eat human organs? I do seem to think you get your news from a single source, and this source doesn't sound very unbiased to me.

Actually I vaguely remember something about that from a while back. Some of the rebels were cutting hearts out of dead government soldiers and eating them iirc.

One guy did it once.

Literally.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Actually I vaguely remember something about that from a while back. Some of the rebels were cutting hearts out of dead government soldiers and eating them iirc.

One guy did it once.

Literally.

Hey, I did say vaguely

Yeah, but I doubt that actually happened. It sounds far too much like your common wartime propaganda 'our enemies are monsters and they feast on human babies'. The Japanese thought the same of the Americans when they began island hopping.

It did happen, it's just certainly not a common thing.

[Halivaara]

UN tries to be peaceful
But we-Cold War
Can all-Arab-Israil Conflict
See he is-War on Terror
Not doing a-War On Donbass
Good job at it-ISIS

end of coughing session

[Harkback Union]

Lets start by reconciling with reality.

The US navy, not some US backed separatists or terrorists, the Navy of the US of A shot down an airliner back in 88.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

And did the man shooting down the plane get prosecuted?
Nope! The got medals! Even though it was obvious they made a mistake, first they sailed into Iranian waters chasing some boats from where the iranians allegedly fired at an american helicopter with small-arms, they spotted something on the radar, flying through a commercial air corridor and then they somehow forgot to contect the plane on air traffic frequencies before concluding that its a military jet and firing 2 missiles at it. Keep in mind that even if it was a military jet, the US would have no right to shoot it down.

They US would have the right to shoot it down. Self defence is the only form of armed violence not requiring a UN mandate to execute. It's entire legal to shoot down a jet, if it's clearly an attack. Now, this even was unfortunate, and I'd rather have those persons responsible being somehow reprimanded, but the US would have the right to shoot it down if it was a military jet.

Self defense?
How is shooting down an Iranian jet in its own airspace self-defense?
That's like the Russian navy shooting down a NATO fighter on patrol over Germany's shores.

[Qart chadast]

If nations should be kicked out becouse of reasons then the UN would be left with just Switzerland, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Iceland ect. ect.

Well, that would be awesomely cool.

Especially if the Blue Helmets were replaced by Swiss Guards. The sheer awesomeness of someone charging along with a halberd in one hand, an MP5 in the other, while wearing Renaissance garb...

That would indeed be very interesting to see

Honestly, why cry so much about that plane? War is war and things like that happen in a war, the incident was tragic indeed but it wasn't the end of the world nor was it really that important as more people die in alot of parts of the rest of the world.

Uh, because over a hundred civilians who weren't even part of the warzone were killed?

Ah yes, becouse foreign people are much more important then local people heh...

[Imperializt Russia]

Uh, because over a hundred civilians who weren't even part of the warzone were killed?

Ah yes, becouse foreign people are much more important then local people heh...

The sinking of the Lucitania brought the United States into World War One.

Such incidents and the fallout of them are hardly without precedent.
I see little meaningful difference between this incident and Israel's shelling of Palestinian schools with phosphorous. Civilians, not at all a part of the fighting, were killed by the fighting and not even as collateral damage to legitimate targets.