NationStates

Divitaen wrote:

Macbeth wrote:
This is what I object to. Unless you're of race/ethnicity X, you are FORBIDDEN from wearing something from their culture, even if it's rarely worn at say at tea ceremony, etc.

If you are for civil rights, you cannot object to the civil rights of someone wanting to try on a garment for leisure and experience.

I don't think its against civil rights at all. I am for the rights of minority communities to not have their cultural traditions debased and trivialised.

Divitaen wrote:

Egoman wrote:The racist bastards. HOW DARE THEY...dress up in a dress. Umm...WHAT AN OUTRAGE!

What's next then? Trying on blackface as a costume? Allowing Western companies to control and take over Native American sweat lodges and claiming them as their own, as has been condemned by the United Nations? Or being like Katy Perry and pretending to be a geisha for a performance?

Macbeth wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
I don't think its against civil rights at all. I am for the rights of minority communities to not have their cultural traditions debased and trivialised.

It totally is.

You - nor anyone - have no right to tell what a person can or cannot wear if doing so is legal, even if it's in poor taste, which _I_ don't believe it is.

Divitaen wrote:

Risottia wrote:So, please, your comment about this:

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

Divitaen wrote:

Macbeth wrote:
This is what I object to. Unless you're of race/ethnicity X, you are FORBIDDEN from wearing something from their culture, even if it's rarely worn at say at tea ceremony, etc.

If you are for civil rights, you cannot object to the civil rights of someone wanting to try on a garment for leisure and experience.

I don't think its against civil rights at all. I am for the rights of minority communities to not have their cultural traditions debased and trivialised.

Divitaen wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:So, in other words, you fully support cultural appropriation of western culture.

No, I made it quite clear if he only did it in a museum to "look cool" and "try what it would be like to mimic a Caucasian", they its wrong too.

Egoman wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
What's next then? Trying on blackface as a costume? Allowing Western companies to control and take over Native American sweat lodges and claiming them as their own, as has been condemned by the United Nations? Or being like Katy Perry and pretending to be a geisha for a performance?

Dem hurrurs. It really just seems you're upset because westerners do it and then try to justify it when non-westerners do it.

Replevion wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

So I wear qipao (and before transition changshan) on a regular basis. No, really. So I'm ok, just because I do it often? This is the dumbest ethical standard ever.

Divitaen wrote:

Egoman wrote:Dem hurrurs. It really just seems you're upset because westerners do it and then try to justify it when non-westerners do it.

I don't justify it when non-Westerners do it. Like I mentioned earlier, if a Japanese man walks into a museum, tries on a Western business suit for one exhibit and takes pictures and parades it on social media lauding how "white" he looks, then that's terrible too.

Dyakovo wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
No, I made it quite clear if he only did it in a museum to "look cool" and "try what it would be like to mimic a Caucasian", they its wrong too.

You made it quite clear that you approve of Japanese appropriating western culture.
Clearly you feel that western culture is superior to Japanese culture.

Divitaen wrote:

Egoman wrote:Dem hurrurs. It really just seems you're upset because westerners do it and then try to justify it when non-westerners do it.

I don't justify it when non-Westerners do it.

Divitaen wrote:He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life.

Dyakovo wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

So, in other words, you fully support cultural appropriation of western culture.

Divitaen wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:You made it quite clear that you approve of Japanese appropriating western culture.
Clearly you feel that western culture is superior to Japanese culture.

How have I approved of cultural appropriation when done by the Japanese? I explicitly said if a Japanese were to do this, and the roles were reversed, it would be morally reprehensible as well.

Divitaen wrote:He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life.

Divitaen wrote:

Macbeth wrote:
It totally is.

You - nor anyone - have no right to tell what a person can or cannot wear if doing so is legal, even if it's in poor taste, which _I_ don't believe it is.

I'm not asking for a law to passed to ban this practice. I'm just saying I and everyone else has a duty to call it out when it happens, and let others know that this is wrong and has to end as a practice.

Aculea wrote:

Divitaen wrote:No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

So my native Japanese wife stuffs me into a Kimono at every available opportunity because of all the things that are wrong in that sentence. One, "was." The Kimono is still honored, two "only worn at formal occasions," these days kimono are formal wear, yes, but they are not worn only at formal occasions. When we went to visit Kyoto, we did all our touristing in kimono because it was cuter that way. Which brings us to three, implying it is not a pretty, cute dress. This is exactly what it is. Women wear it because it makes them cuter, and depending on preference, they'll wear it at the drop of a hat. My wife puts me in one because she thinks I'm cuter in it. One of our first big fights was whether I should wear kimono to our wedding, because she thought my tux was boring.

You've expressed one of two opinions here, either my only moral choice is to offend my wife to the point of divorce, because we would not be married if I had not agreed to wear a kimono, or I am excused from your draconian interpretation because my wife is some sort of unelected gatekeeper with the power to bless a kimono into suitability for a western man.

The game is working hard to teach me what happens to countries that install unelected gatekeepers over issues like dressing in the morning, and it's not pleasant.

Divitaen wrote:

Egoman wrote:The racist bastards. HOW DARE THEY...dress up in a dress. Umm...WHAT AN OUTRAGE!

What's next then? Trying on blackface as a costume?

Or being like Katy Perry and pretending to be a geisha for a performance?

Divitaen wrote:

The Alexanderians wrote:Why? We are all humans, are we not? Why shouldn't we share our cultures with each other. By this logic my marital arts and sword classes are cultural appropriation. What I I wear my cousin's russian army uniform? Is that also cultural appropriation? Or how about drinking tequila is that cultural appropriation of mexicans?

No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

Divitaen wrote:

New Granadeseret wrote:
This isen't happening in Japan; it's happening in a place where the Kimono has never been as important a part of the local culture as it is in it's homeland. Like anything new or unusual (IE not being deeply ingrained in the local culture), it IS an oddity and has to go through the "oh, look at that!" stage before people decide weather to make it a full part of their culture (For instance, what happened when the Kimono was first introduced in Japan) or leave it as a fringe or temporary element (Like the pet rock). One can have something exist within society and not have it be a reverent part of the culture, and I'm not obligated to treat something as holy because anybody else does.

For example, I eat genetically modified wild rice. There is a Native American tribe in our region who thinks they have a sacred obligation to preserve the rice as it was. Must I only eat it in their traditional way and destroy all genetically modified rice within possible fertilizing distance of them just because their culture says THEY should act a certain way?

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

Divitaen wrote:How have I approved of cultural appropriation when done by the Japanese? I explicitly said if a Japanese were to do this, and the roles were reversed, it would be morally reprehensible as well.

Alyakia wrote:do people get this mad when people wear kilts

Dyakovo wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
How have I approved of cultural appropriation when done by the Japanese? I explicitly said if a Japanese were to do this, and the roles were reversed, it would be morally reprehensible as well.

Divitaen wrote:He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life.

The Alexanderians wrote:

Divitaen wrote:
No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

THAT'S WHY IT'S WORN IN THE FIRST PLACE! Becasue it's a cute dress. Japanese girls and women wear them because it's a cute dress, same reason a western woman wears a dress. If I see an asian woman in a western style suit or dress I'll be sure to reminder her it's cultural appropriation for your sake. How's that grab you?

Divitaen wrote:He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

The Alexanderians wrote:Look at all this cultural appropriation!