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Trying on Kimono = Cultural Appropriation?

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New Granadeseret
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Postby New Granadeseret » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:21 am

Divitaen wrote:
New Granadeseret wrote:Because every aspect of every culture does; things imported from abroad is essentially the same as something new being invented at home. Because that's how you get people's attention. Delving deep into the culture and history of a thing is work, and people aren't willing to put forth the effort for something they have no reason to care anything about. You ever wonder why there's a brief description and cover art on books? It's so it can catch people's attention and give them enough information to convince them to actually go through and read the whole thing. Should just wanting to read the first page obligate me to read the entire series? Would anybody every develop an interest in, say, engineering if your required them to take a university course before they were even allowed to tinker with their first hobbist woodworker kit? (A 'children's toy' as you put it?) I bet any amateur you put that ultimatum before would drop the idea faster then if you'd just stayed out of the way and let him take his own course.

Furthermore, a "corporate consumer culture" is designed to sell things. It panders to consumers by it's very definition. If you want to make a change, that starts by changing the minds of the masses... and to do that you have to give them a reason to give two bits about what it is you're fighting for in the first place. And your demand that they either be avente gardee or nothing at all means your base of support is going to be small.


I don't think it will eventually change my minds though. The result is you just have an extremely large consumer base, all convinced that the entire culture is represented by a few toys, some cool TV shows and a few neat tricks, but refuse to go further than that. And to have cultural appropriation on a mass scale doesn't make this any better. I'm not asking everyone to go to university, but at the very least companies and organisations shouldn't sell out for the sake of appealing to mass consumerism.


Companies not selling out t mass consumerism for money... yah, not going to happen. Making money is their reason for existence, and they have no motivation to shut off the flow. The change has to come from the consumers voting with their wallets to go elsewhere... and that won't happen if you close the gates to any interaction with a culture (to see if they'd even be curious about it or not) by outsiders unless they go through a great deal of work beforehand.

There are two ways you can counter the 'degradation' of culture. Your approach seems to be circling he wagons to maintain purity; which of course will result in nobody outside caring about it and will be gladly negligent towards it's upkeep, while you only get new supporters through 'natural birth' into it (many of whom will be lead away by the appeal of other, more open cultures), only slowing the decay.

The other option is to get supporters and strength from the outside by allowing for slow entry and fair, honest competition on the trans-cultural stage. Make the information available in interesting ways... even if they aren't one-hundred percent, every minute detail included levels of accuracy and scale. They, others think this might be interesting and have a motivation to look into it, possibly becoming a partial or even full convert. A certain level of lowest-common-denominator is a less fortunate, but unavoidable, aspect of this, but you're not much (if any) worse off losing somebody that you never had in the first place.
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Divitaen
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Postby Divitaen » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 am

Dyakovo wrote:
Divitaen wrote:
Wtf it was an interracial marriage. How is that cultural appropriation.

Have you forgotten what the thread topic is already?
The kimono started out as cultural appropriation (and then bastardization) of Chinese formal wear.


Yeah, its like fusion cuisine. Cultures merge and join to form new cultures all the time. Its still not the same as appropriation, which is when you specifically aim to reduce, commodify and degrade another culture into a trinket or crass entertainment. That is different from mere innocent cultural exchange.
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The Chals of the Bringer
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Postby The Chals of the Bringer » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 am

Alyakia wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:You don't?


how do you feel about people wearing medals for fun

i mean sure, you need to go through hell to get one and it's a pretty significant symbol, but i want fun, y'know?

You can buy medals in a U.S navy base. Purple heart, $42.
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Ulfr-Reich
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Postby Ulfr-Reich » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Divitaen wrote:
You think its fine for people to wear Native American war bonnets just for fun?

You don't?



I guess I better get mighty offended whenever someone puts on one of these:

Image

Or one of these:

Image

Muh cultural appropriation.

Jesusfuckingchrist people, grow up.
Last edited by Ulfr-Reich on Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Egoman
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Postby Egoman » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 am

Divitaen wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:You don't?


No not at all. And I'm not the only one:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1837578/why-you ... addresses/
http://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014 ... be-stopped

Thicker skins, please. We need to stop pleasing everyone that bursts into tears for the smallest issue.

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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 am

Divitaen wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:You don't?


No not at all. And I'm not the only one:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1837578/why-you ... addresses/
http://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014 ... be-stopped

Boohoo, let me cry them a river.

There's nothing wrong with dressing like a priest, so there's nothing wrong with wearing a Native American headdress.
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The Cobalt Sky
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Postby The Cobalt Sky » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 am

New Grestin wrote:People getting butthurt over things that don't matter seems to be a running theme on the internet nowadays.

There was a time when it wasn't?
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Divitaen
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Postby Divitaen » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:23 am

New Granadeseret wrote:Companies not selling out t mass consumerism for money... yah, not going to happen. Making money is their reason for existence, and they have no motivation to shut off the flow. The change has to come from the consumers voting with their wallets to go elsewhere... and that won't happen if you close the gates to any interaction with a culture (to see if they'd even be curious about it or not) by outsiders unless they go through a great deal of work beforehand.

There are two ways you can counter the 'degradation' of culture. Your approach seems to be circling he wagons to maintain purity; which of course will result in nobody outside caring about it and will be gladly negligent towards it's upkeep, while you only get new supporters through 'natural birth' into it (many of whom will be lead away by the appeal of other, more open cultures), only slowing the decay.

The other option is to get supporters and strength from the outside by allowing for slow entry and fair, honest competition on the trans-cultural stage. Make the information available in interesting ways... even if they aren't one-hundred percent, every minute detail included levels of accuracy and scale. They, others think this might be interesting and have a motivation to look into it, possibly becoming a partial or even full convert. A certain level of lowest-common-denominator is a less fortunate, but unavoidable, aspect of this, but you're not much (if any) worse off losing somebody that you never had in the first place.


We're still going to have a melting pot of cultures. We will still have immigrant communities bonding and meeting, and cross-cultural exchange happening through the formation of new clothes, new languages, new cuisine, new music. It has happened throughout history and will continue happening. But companies reducing cultural icons, elements and facets into mere toys and playthings is something that is unnecessary to the promotion of any culture. Companies always want to pander to mass consumerism for the sake of money, but the fact that this will always be a reality doesn't mean we can't criticise it.
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:24 am

Divitaen wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Have you forgotten what the thread topic is already?
The kimono started out as cultural appropriation (and then bastardization) of Chinese formal wear.


Yeah, its like fusion cuisine. Cultures merge and join to form new cultures all the time. Its still not the same as appropriation, which is when you specifically aim to reduce, commodify and degrade another culture into a trinket or crass entertainment. That is different from mere innocent cultural exchange.

So you agree that the "incident" in the OP is not cultural appropriation, it's introducing an aspect of one culture to another culture. Good.
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Postby The Carlisle » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:24 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:

Boohoo, let me cry them a river.

There's nothing wrong with dressing like a priest, so there's nothing wrong with wearing a Native American headdress.

Ah... Shitting on native Americans. A classic 'murican past time.
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Postby Egoman » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:24 am

Divitaen wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Have you forgotten what the thread topic is already?
The kimono started out as cultural appropriation (and then bastardization) of Chinese formal wear.


Yeah, its like fusion cuisine. Cultures merge and join to form new cultures all the time. Its still not the same as appropriation, which is when you specifically aim to reduce, commodify and degrade another culture into a trinket or crass entertainment. That is different from mere innocent cultural exchange.

Nah, it's because westerners are doing it and you sjws have to get super butthurt every fucking time a white person or a man does something.

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Postby New Grestin » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:24 am

The Cobalt Sky wrote:
New Grestin wrote:People getting butthurt over things that don't matter seems to be a running theme on the internet nowadays.

There was a time when it wasn't?

The rise of Outrage Culture seems to have exacerbated the problem.

"This offends a particular group of people, so we should all be upset about it."
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Egoman
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Postby Egoman » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:25 am

The Carlisle wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Boohoo, let me cry them a river.

There's nothing wrong with dressing like a priest, so there's nothing wrong with wearing a Native American headdress.

Ah... Shitting on native Americans. A classic 'murican past time.

The tears that tickle make me giggle. Keep them coming.

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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:25 am

Alyakia wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:You don't?


how do you feel about people wearing medals for fun

i mean sure, you need to go through hell to get one and it's a pretty significant symbol, but i want fun, y'know?

Cry me a river. Nothing wrong with wearing appropriate accessories to military cosplay.
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Postby Wanderjar » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:25 am

Egoman wrote:
Divitaen wrote:
You think its fine for people to wear Native American war bonnets just for fun?

I do. Now what are you going to do about it?


*raises hand*

I'm a Native American and think that's perfectly fine. You have my permission ;) lol
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Postby Aelex » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:26 am

The Chals of the Bringer wrote:You can buy medals in a U.S navy base. Purple heart, $42.
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Postby Egoman » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:26 am

Wanderjar wrote:
Egoman wrote:I do. Now what are you going to do about it?


*raises hand*

I'm a Native American and think that's perfectly fine. You have my permission ;) lol

High five, dude. You're awesome.

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The Cobalt Sky
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Postby The Cobalt Sky » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:26 am

Egoman wrote:

Thicker skins, please. We need to stop pleasing everyone that bursts into tears for the smallest issue.

Sounds nice, but let's not dismiss every issue. On the other hand, This one is pretty whack.
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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:26 am

Divitaen wrote:But cultural exchange can occur through many ways, interacting with people from another culture, learning another language, studying their history, or slowly picking up aspects of their culture.


Wouldn't a museum be a great place to study history? And how are you going to determine whether someone has picked up aspects of culture slowly enough when you go to bully people who are wearing things you disapprove of?

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Postby The Alexanderians » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:27 am

Divitaen wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Have you forgotten what the thread topic is already?
The kimono started out as cultural appropriation (and then bastardization) of Chinese formal wear.


Yeah, its like fusion cuisine. Cultures merge and join to form new cultures all the time. Its still not the same as appropriation, which is when you specifically aim to reduce, commodify and degrade another culture into a trinket or crass entertainment. That is different from mere innocent cultural exchange.

Oh I see you have a double standard now your position makes sense.
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Postby Egoman » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:27 am

The Cobalt Sky wrote:
Egoman wrote:Thicker skins, please. We need to stop pleasing everyone that bursts into tears for the smallest issue.

Sounds nice, but let's not dismiss every issue. On the other hand, This one is pretty whack.

Not every single one, of course. Just the ones I don't like. ;)

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The Carlisle
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Postby The Carlisle » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:27 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Alyakia wrote:
how do you feel about people wearing medals for fun

i mean sure, you need to go through hell to get one and it's a pretty significant symbol, but i want fun, y'know?

Cry me a river. Nothing wrong with wearing appropriate accessories to military cosplay.

More like a war museum going "try on a purple heart!" At a display, take a picture, post it online, and feel good about yourself for ingratiating in US military history. All the while, veterans stand by ruining the day, saying this shit is insulting to the people who actually earned it.
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:27 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Got any evidence that people are parading their pictures on social media and lauding how "Japanese" they look? I don't see how that is inherent in allowing people to have their picture taken.

I'm pretty sure they're less interested in being a Japanese and more interested in emulating a work of art.


Probably.

I think there's also an argument to be made that they are exploring French culture considering whose painting it is, or that a kimono belongs in a New England museum as a part of the local maritime tradition which included trade with Asia. Obviously, the kimono is originally Japanese, but these people aren't appropriating it directly from Japan. They are getting it by way of France, and that sort of Asian-influenced imagery has a long history in European art.
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:28 am

The Alexanderians wrote:
Divitaen wrote:
Yeah, its like fusion cuisine. Cultures merge and join to form new cultures all the time. Its still not the same as appropriation, which is when you specifically aim to reduce, commodify and degrade another culture into a trinket or crass entertainment. That is different from mere innocent cultural exchange.

Oh I see you have a double standard now your position makes sense.

That wasn't obvious from the get-go?
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Postby Wanderjar » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:28 am

Egoman wrote:
Wanderjar wrote:
*raises hand*

I'm a Native American and think that's perfectly fine. You have my permission ;) lol

High five, dude. You're awesome.


I do what I can lol

But in all seriousness, how could someone possibly be offended by an individual tacitly saying 'Your cultural heritage is really neat. I wish to emulate it out of respect either as a costume or whatever.' I mean, really? How can I be offended by that as a Seminole/Cherokee?
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