Are the IRA Heroes?

[New Babylonia]

That would be because you're not really getting what I'm saying, or deliberately choosing to ignore it.

Does the number of Britsh soldiers matter? Yes. Did I say that excused the civilians deaths? No.

What I did say was that it pointed to a different use of tactics and such, that disputed your initial claim of lesser evil.

This comes from you taking percentages and asserting something that ignores a range of factors in what was a complex conflict.

The tactics (means) are irrelevant, what is of more importance is the end result.

Marc, you're right. This guy is hilarious. We're talking about a goddamn war here, pretty fucking sure. Did you just ACTUALLY fucking say tactics are IRRELEVANT while discussing a WAR?

Ontop of just obscenely wrong that is, i mean, i have a massive ancient ass book called The Art of War in my home if you'd like to borrow it, just incase you really think that still. But, it does matter.

Infact. Name a war. Any war. I can tell you which side was evil based on their motives, used tactics, and the result of them.

[FutureAmerica]

If you go after military targets, you're a hero for having balls. If you blow up babies, you'll never be a hero.

[Panstine]

Is the Taliban a group of freedom fighters?

No the Taliban is an Islamist extremist terrorist group.

Terrorist scum.

Yeah, the British soldiers who massacred women and children in Derry.

good the Irish are filth and scum

[Luna Amore]

No the Taliban is an Islamist extremist terrorist group.


Yeah, the British soldiers who massacred women and children in Derry.

good the Irish are filth and scum

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Neumistan]

being from northern ireland i can no they are bunch of cowards

[New Hellenica]

Fvck them all to hell, one killed my third cousin in those stupid bombings in United Kingdom that they claim to be "Freeing Ireland", I hope they all go to hell, and don't get special treatment from the devil!

(Image)

These Idiots think that United Kingdom is forcing Northern Ireland to stay in the U.K., when 80% want to stay, those guys are terrorists that need to pay for there crimes.

(Image)

God Save Queen and Country!

Amen.

[The Krogan]

No, the IRA aren't "heroes"

[Prussia-Steinbach]

No, the IRA aren't "heroes"

Why not?

[The Krogan]

No, the IRA aren't "heroes"

Why not?

"Heroes" being the key word, as I don't believe "heroes" blow shit up and kill people.

But that's just my view, I also think the term hero is thrown around a lot more then it should but that's off topic.

[Hirota]

Why not?

"Heroes" being the key word, as I don't believe "heroes" blow shit up and kill people.

But that's just my view, I also think the term hero is thrown around a lot more then it should but that's off topic.

I agree. The defintion I work on: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3A+heroes

I don't believe the average member of the IRA exhibited any of those qualities.

[Cheonseon]

Are you talking about the IRA from 1917-1922, from 1922 to 1969, or PIRA and RIRA? I can see how the IRA from '17-'22 could be called heroes, for their role in Irish independence. From '22-'69, it's kind of a downhill battle. But the provos and RIRA… In no way, shape, or form can be called heroes.

[Barrera]

Is the Taliban a group of freedom fighters?

Exactly this.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Is the Taliban a group of freedom fighters?

Exactly this.

Arguably, yes.

[Baiynistan]

No, they're hateful terrorists. It's possible to fight against an aggressive or oppressive regime without resorting to the murder of civilians. The Iraqi Kurds of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan demonstrated this in their decades long fight against Saddam's Ba'athists.

[Olivaero]

Exactly this.

Arguably, yes.

I'd love to see the arguments for the Taliban being freedom fighters.

As for the IRA I'm sure some of them steered clear of acts of terrorism and stuck with defending civilians from protestant militias but some of them certainly didn't and some of them again were associated with acts of terrorism that killed innocent civilians. They are not uniformly heroes or villains simply a reaction to protestant domination of Northern Ireland and before them centuries of oppression of the Irish by the British.

[The Krogan]

Arguably, yes.

I'd love to see the arguments for the Taliban being freedom fighters.

As for the IRA I'm sure some of them steered clear of acts of terrorism and stuck with defending civilians from protestant militias but some of them certainly didn't and some of them again were associated with acts of terrorism that killed innocent civilians. They are not uniformly heroes or villains simply a reaction to protestant domination of Northern Ireland and before them centuries of oppression of the Irish by the British.

They were for some when they were the Muja-hadian (butchered that)

[Baiynistan]

They were for some when they were the Muja-hadian (butchered that)

The better parts of the Mujahideen went on to become the Northern Alliance, particularly those under the command of Ahmad Shah Massoud, who directly opposed the Taliban. He was murdered in a suicide bombing two days before the 9/11 attacks, likely instigated by Taliban aligned al-Qaeda.

[Wanderjar]

I fail to see the distinction. Blowing up innocent people, staging riots hoping to get British troops to fire on people, and destroying communities because they're a Protestant majority seems pretty thuggish and terroristic to me.

Right, and literally every revolution in history is guilty of that. People still call the other revolutionaries "freedom fighters". Why don't you stop using loaded terms? The IRA is guilty of plenty of atrocities, but none unique to them from a historical perspective.

More importantly, Protestants and the British sodomized Ireland in the 1600s and 1700s. You can thank people like Oliver Cromwell and Protestant colonists for most of the problems in modern Northern Ireland. They subjugated the Irish Catholic natives and stole their land. So, really, when compared to the amount of destruction that British invaders caused Ireland, what the IRA has done is next to nothing. Stealing land, slaughtering innocent people and British politicians saying that the Potato Famine was God's way of punishing the Irish people "...seems pretty thuggish and terroristic to me".

The point of this is not to say that the IRA is good, but that without British colonialism and militant Protestants, none of these problems would exist. The real blame here is people who have been dead for hundreds of years. Secondly, that there is a serious amount of guilt on both sides of this conflict. Third, the continued use of dramatic language like "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" does nothing but sensationalize what could be a rational conversation.

Not my problem, they're terrorists and thugs, and their sympathizers are equally reprehensible. It's tantamount to saying that Al-Qaeda wasn't right, but they weren't bad either. It's no different at all.

[Wanderjar]

Are you talking about the IRA from 1917-1922, from 1922 to 1969, or PIRA and RIRA? I can see how the IRA from '17-'22 could be called heroes, for their role in Irish independence. From '22-'69, it's kind of a downhill battle. But the provos and RIRA… In no way, shape, or form can be called heroes.

This I can completely agree with. I have respect for the IRA of 1916-1922. I have no respect for it's frankly unrelated successor PIRA. They're wannabe communists that are just criminals and thugs.

[Wanderjar]

They were for some when they were the Muja-hadian (butchered that)

The better parts of the Mujahideen went on to become the Northern Alliance, particularly those under the command of Ahmad Shah Massoud, who directly opposed the Taliban. He was murdered in a suicide bombing two days before the 9/11 attacks, likely instigated by Taliban aligned al-Qaeda.

The Northern Alliance came as a result of the Taliban, and it was still a tribal thing. The Northern Alliance was mostly consistent of Tajiks, with some Turkmen and Uzbeks as well. The Taliban was mostly a Pashtun movement, and even most of the Taliban didn't really like them, only did it because their view was that it was better for Pashtun to control themselves rather than some Tajik like Massoud. That's also why the Special Forces had to come into the south and the Northern Alliance wasn't allowed to during the first phase of Operation Enduring Freedom: many Pashto leaders said they were happy to rebel and throw out the Taliban, but if one Tajik, Turk, Kyrgyz, or Uzbek fighter crossed into the Pashto lands, every single one of them would forever more join the Taliban and never work with the NA again.

So it wasn't so much that the 'good' Mujahideen became the Northern Alliance, because none of them were good. They just recognized the Taliban as being especially dangerous and agreed, mostly grudgingly, to come together under the charismatic personality of Ahmed Shah to fight the Taliban. Prior to this they were all pretty content to kill each other to get power, and in the end it took Hamid Karzai to unify everyone, since he was the only Afghan statesmen who every ethnic group pretty much universally respected, a fact which was established at the Loya Jirga in 2002.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Are you talking about the IRA from 1917-1922, from 1922 to 1969, or PIRA and RIRA? I can see how the IRA from '17-'22 could be called heroes, for their role in Irish independence. From '22-'69, it's kind of a downhill battle. But the provos and RIRA… In no way, shape, or form can be called heroes.

This I can completely agree with. I have respect for the IRA of 1916-1922. I have no respect for it's frankly unrelated successor PIRA. They're wannabe communists that are just criminals and thugs.

The Provisionals as a movement never called themselves communist, it was the Official IRA that adopted Marxism as part of their doctrines and goals.

[Benian Republic]

This I can completely agree with. I have respect for the IRA of 1916-1922. I have no respect for it's frankly unrelated successor PIRA. They're wannabe communists that are just criminals and thugs.

The Provisionals as a movement never called themselves communist, it was the Official IRA that adopted Marxism as part of their doctrines and goals.

The only thing that matters is that it was our country first and it doesn't matter what it takes to reclaim it.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The Provisionals as a movement never called themselves communist, it was the Official IRA that adopted Marxism as part of their doctrines and goals.

The only thing that matters is that it was our country first and it doesn't matter what it takes to reclaim it.

Uh huh, You do that.

I myself prefer restraint.

[Baiynistan]

The Northern Alliance came as a result of the Taliban, and it was still a tribal thing. The Northern Alliance was mostly consistent of Tajiks, with some Turkmen and Uzbeks as well. The Taliban was mostly a Pashtun movement, and even most of the Taliban didn't really like them, only did it because their view was that it was better for Pashtun to control themselves rather than some Tajik like Massoud. That's also why the Special Forces had to come into the south and the Northern Alliance wasn't allowed to during the first phase of Operation Enduring Freedom: many Pashto leaders said they were happy to rebel and throw out the Taliban, but if one Tajik, Turk, Kyrgyz, or Uzbek fighter crossed into the Pashto lands, every single one of them would forever more join the Taliban and never work with the NA again.

So it wasn't so much that the 'good' Mujahideen became the Northern Alliance, because none of them were good. They just recognized the Taliban as being especially dangerous and agreed, mostly grudgingly, to come together under the charismatic personality of Ahmed Shah to fight the Taliban. Prior to this they were all pretty content to kill each other to get power, and in the end it took Hamid Karzai to unify everyone, since he was the only Afghan statesmen who every ethnic group pretty much universally respected, a fact which was established at the Loya Jirga in 2002.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight.

[Benian Republic]

The only thing that matters is that it was our country first and it doesn't matter what it takes to reclaim it.

Uh huh, You do that.

I myself prefer restraint.

Restraint doesn't work in all cases.