The general gun control thread

[North Calaveras]

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

An AK? You unpatriotic bastard!

Just kidding. RIP Mikhail Kalashnikov

I consider gun in general to be American, so though they might be made in other countryies, americans don't care, we just want them

[Gautlund]

Het

Is actually Romanian WASR, so not technically an AK or Russian.....but that's a little pet peeve I have when it comes to AK-patterned rifle. But 922r laws basically make it half-American. Once I get the new Magpul stock and handguard, it will be all American parts and thus a naturalized American

I've heard good things about the Romanian copy. When I'm done with my tour, I'll have to seriously look up AKs in depth more, though I'm still partial to the M16/AR-15 just because that's what I've trained with.

Romanians are great, especially for a starter/budget. Got mine used for about $400 which is a steal, of course it only came with one mag, no cleaning kit, and no cleaning rod, but you can get those at any gun show. What you want is the newer builds, which are pretty easy to spot, just watch this video.....helped me when I was buying one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZc-yLYt4Uk

But for shits and giggles, I'd recommend getting an Iraqi contractor version before they run out. Then when you have buddies over, you can pull it out and be like "yeah, this is kinda my prize for killing the son of bitch that tried to kill me" but then tell them you were pulling their leg after a few minutes lol
https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/contractor-wasr-10-ak47-detail.html?Itemid=0

[Big Jim P]

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

Nice starter collection.

I have found a lot of good deals here. Only a couple more months until I can start collecting.

[Imperializt Russia]

Something I've just spotted for the first time, 1% of survey respondents in the 1991 study (approximately 2100 respondents comprise this 1%) report using a "military style weapon" in a crime. Military-style weapon being classified as, for example, Uzi, AK, AR-15/M16.

The AWB targeted weapons that accounted for 1% of crime.

Looks more like ti says between 1-3% used a military style weapon or automatic weapon.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOSPI91.PDF
Page 18, 1% "military style" in the 1991 survey.

Though that's all violent inmates, which includes 54% who did not use a weapon, 11% who used a knife and 5% who used "other weapon such as club or bottle".
So of firearm offenders, it probably is 3%.

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

>freedom
>70% Soviet/ChiCom

GG

"Shall not be infringed" Couldn't be any clearer.

So long as the right to bear arms exists, it is not infringed.
The 2nd Amendment doesn't specify what arms may be brought to bear and given some people's attitudes, thank fucking Chirst.

[Sociobiology]

BJS Study 2001
Based on 1997 and 1991 surveys of inmates.

Retail Store: 8.3 (1997) 14.7 (1991)
Pawnshop: 3.8 (1997) 4.2 (1991)
Gun show 0.7 (1997) 0.6 (1991)
Street/illegal source 39.2 (1997) 40.8 (1991)
Friends or family 39.6 (1997) 33.8 (1991)

I'm not disputing IR's numbers, his have details mine don't I'm just including some other ones to be looked at. Overall though it doesn't look like that many firearms go from legal owners to illegal owners/users through "clean" private sales.

EDIT: I apparently linked to the wrong study. Here is the right one.

Well what we really need to know anyway is did the peoe have a felony on record before they obtained the gun from a friend relative via private sale? That is the relevant number here as a permit system even if applied to all private sales wouldn't do anything to prevent someone with a clean record from buying a gun from their brother and then killing someone.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
page 8

private sales are unaffected by having a record, retail sales drop by about 10% and black market sales increase by about 10%, of course private sales are a major source for black market sellers.
And a record system makes it a lot easier to rack where a black market seller gets his/her firearms.

[Spirit of Hope]

Looks more like ti says between 1-3% used a military style weapon or automatic weapon.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOSPI91.PDF
Page 18, 1% "military style" in the 1991 survey.

Though that's all violent inmates, which includes 54% who did not use a weapon, 11% who used a knife and 5% who used "other weapon such as club or bottle".
So of firearm offenders, it probably is 3%.

The studies I posted showed between 2-3% used military style of automatic firearm, if they used a firearm, depending on which prison population you polled, state or federal. So vs. all offenders is the difference.

Overall a rather small amount of crime for the AWB to be worried about.

Well what we really need to know anyway is did the peoe have a felony on record before they obtained the gun from a friend relative via private sale? That is the relevant number here as a permit system even if applied to all private sales wouldn't do anything to prevent someone with a clean record from buying a gun from their brother and then killing someone.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
page 8

private sales are unaffected by having a record, retail sales drop by about 10% and black market sales increase by about 10%, of course private sales are a major source for black market sellers.
And a record system makes it a lot easier to rack where a black market seller gets his/her firearms.

1) Private sales are effected by having a criminal record. Specifically both Gun Show decreased from 1% to .4% in 1991 and Friends and Family decreased from 36.1% to 33.1%.
2) Source for the fact that private sales are a major source for black markets sellers.

[Llamalandia]

Well what we really need to know anyway is did the peoe have a felony on record before they obtained the gun from a friend relative via private sale? That is the relevant number here as a permit system even if applied to all private sales wouldn't do anything to prevent someone with a clean record from buying a gun from their brother and then killing someone.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
page 8

private sales are unaffected by having a record, retail sales drop by about 10% and black market sales increase by about 10%, of course private sales are a major source for black market sellers.
And a record system makes it a lot easier to rack where a black market seller gets his/her firearms.

With respect though and I admit i haven't had the time to read through this report carefully but does it say whether these people had a record before obtaining a gun in a private sale? if it does, then ok the permit system you propose if applied to private sales might actually have an impact on the availability of weapons to felons. I mean, if I know uncle bob has a felony record and by law I have to keep a paper trail if I sell him a gun then i'm probably not to going to sell him the gun. On the other hand if uncle bob doesn't have a felony record then it doesn't really matter much either way, I can sell to him or he can by from someone else legally.

[Skinhead Nation]

For what reasons?

I don't want to live in a community where regular,

Of course not, those uncivilized peasants.

untrained,

They are very much trained.

unsupervised people have even the remotest access to deadly weapons.

Training is supervised and I don't see why trained people need to be supervised any more than necessary.

I feel much safer in communities where only police services, which are trained to keep me safe, can access and use firearms. And even then, I'd prefer that the police don't carry them around on regular patrols.

Cops aren't really infallible. They are trained, for better or worse, to keep you safe, but they tend to be unsafe.

Where I live, concealed carry is illegal and obtaining a firearm requires a reason: shooting sports and hunting are most common. These two are which I would abolish where I live. The Czech model would be ideal in my opinion.

[Sociobiology]

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
page 8

private sales are unaffected by having a record, retail sales drop by about 10% and black market sales increase by about 10%, of course private sales are a major source for black market sellers.
And a record system makes it a lot easier to rack where a black market seller gets his/her firearms.

1) Private sales are effected by having a criminal record. Specifically both Gun Show decreased from 1% to .4% in 1991 and Friends and Family decreased from 36.1% to 33.1%.

Since you don't seem to understand statistics, i'll explain, you should use the most recent numbers especially given the 1991 numbers smaller N. You should also be aware of the margin of error, the differences are easily within the margin of error, hence why I say no difference.
also gun shows may or may not be private sales depending on state.

2) Source for the fact that private sales are a major source for black markets sellers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462834/

[Sociobiology]

several states already require permits for handgun purchases, and in many cases those permits are a lot harder to get than mine.
As long as the general permit is shall issue, it does not violate the constitution.

The permits he's talking about are not shall-issue, however. And you seem to be unique among serious GCA's in that you acknowledge the need for a shall-issue system, rather than running away screaming from one and then making up or taking out of context "facts" to make it look bad.

I'm not all that unique it is just that like any controversial thread it tends to draw the extreme ends of the opinion curve. Its no different than how many poeple you get saying you should not regulate guns at all or who say no gun regulation can work.

[Sociobiology]

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
page 8

private sales are unaffected by having a record, retail sales drop by about 10% and black market sales increase by about 10%, of course private sales are a major source for black market sellers.
And a record system makes it a lot easier to rack where a black market seller gets his/her firearms.

With respect though and I admit i haven't had the time to read through this report carefully but does it say whether these people had a record before obtaining a gun in a private sale?

page 8
first chart.

[BK117B2]

Looks more like ti says between 1-3% used a military style weapon or automatic weapon.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOSPI91.PDF
Page 18, 1% "military style" in the 1991 survey.

Though that's all violent inmates, which includes 54% who did not use a weapon, 11% who used a knife and 5% who used "other weapon such as club or bottle".
So of firearm offenders, it probably is 3%.

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

>freedom
>70% Soviet/ChiCom

GG

"Shall not be infringed" Couldn't be any clearer.

So long as the right to bear arms exists, it is not infringed.
The 2nd Amendment doesn't specify what arms may be brought to bear and given some people's attitudes, thank fucking Chirst.

A right existing doesn't magically mean that it isn't being infringed. Being murdered is certainly an infringement on rights, but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Banning the carry of firearms doesn't magically make the right disappear, but it is certainly an infringement.

The 2nd makes no mention of allowing people to do anything. It is simply a limit placed on government. It only dictates something that government cannot do

[Skinhead Nation]

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

That is a sexy AK right there with an even sexier drum mag.

[Llamalandia]

With respect though and I admit i haven't had the time to read through this report carefully but does it say whether these people had a record before obtaining a gun in a private sale?

page 8
first chart.

Fair enough thanks for pointing that out.

[Spirit of Hope]

1) Private sales are effected by having a criminal record. Specifically both Gun Show decreased from 1% to .4% in 1991 and Friends and Family decreased from 36.1% to 33.1%.

Since you don't seem to understand statistics, i'll explain,

Once again I ask that you please act respectfully. You could have made your point about the statistical significance, which is a valid point, without insulting me and dismissing me.

you should use the most recent numbers especially given the 1991 numbers smaller N. You should also be aware of the margin of error, the differences are easily within the margin of error, hence why I say no difference.
also gun shows may or may not be private sales depending on state.

You are correct, the difference does fall within the error of the study.

2) Source for the fact that private sales are a major source for black markets sellers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462834/

[/quote]

Interesting, a majority of the guns come from private sales but a majority of gun runners use straw purchases from a retail. I would love if the source could be referenced against the BJS study. It has two categories for black market buyers, drug dealer/off street and Fence/Black Market. I wonder which of those categories (one, the other, or both) received guns from the gun runners.

[FutureAmerica]

Ammo sales needs to be controlled and sold in select outlets.
Mental health checks have to be done for gun registration annually.

[Spirit of Hope]

Ammo sales needs to be controlled and sold in select outlets.
Mental health checks have to be done for gun registration annually.

Why do ammo sales need to be controlled? While ammo can be used without a gun it is a very inefficient method.

Why should guns be registered annually and/or why should mental health checks be done annually? Only a very small percentage of guns are used illegally and the majority have very little to do with mental health issues. Additionally who would take on the cost of the mental health checks?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I support widespread firearm ownership, open carry, firearm education, and background checks.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Ammo sales needs to be controlled and sold in select outlets.
Mental health checks have to be done for gun registration annually.

Why do ammo sales need to be controlled? While ammo can be used without a gun it is a very inefficient method.

Why should guns be registered annually

So you can't sell your Tec-9 to some shady firearms dealer who'll then pass it on to two fucked up high school kids.

and/or why should mental health checks be done annually?

In case people go off the deep end in that year. A year might be too short of a time period, but this guy is on the money.

Only a very small percentage of guns are used illegally

Except when they're used illegally, they can do a tremendous amount of damage.

and the majority have very little to do with mental health issues. Additionally who would take on the cost of the mental health checks?

People who want to buy a gun I guess, I don't expect anybody else to pay for my hobby. Isn't it hilarious that Americans think gun registration and background checks should be free but car registration is something they're seemingly happy to pay for? Even though you almost cannot live without a car in post-suburban America.

[Spirit of Hope]

Why do ammo sales need to be controlled? While ammo can be used without a gun it is a very inefficient method.

Why should guns be registered annually

So you can't sell your Tec-9 to some shady firearms dealer who'll then pass it on to two fucked up high school kids.

Then set up a system for the tracking of the private sale of firearms. There are quite a few more reasonable ways to go about this.
1) Require private sales to be carried out through an FFL, who can document the procedure.
2) Set up private access to NICS so private sales can carry out easy back ground checks.
3) Set up an easy to access/online system for documenting the transfer of a firearm. Say an online Form 4473, or something similar, that the ATF holds onto, or a From 4473 that can be turned over and held by a local police department, or a form 4473 that can be filled out by individuals and given over to a local FFL. (though that gets close to proposal #1)

You point to the worst case scenario as a reason to carry out this plan, but mass shooters are incredibly rare.

and/or why should mental health checks be done annually?

In case people go off the deep end in that year. A year might be too short of a time period, but this guy is on the money.

How many murders a year happen because the person has mental illness that a mental health check may stop?
Between 700-2,000 (10%). And you would only catch those who attempted to get a firearm legally. When we know between 30-70% of the firearms used in crimes are obtained illegally.

You say "go off the deep end" like it is medical diagnosis that would be noticed. It honestly isn't.

Only a very small percentage of guns are used illegally

Except when they're used illegally, they can do a tremendous amount of damage.

The same can be said about a lot of things that are commonly available. And the trend is rather clear, very few firearms are actually used to injure or kill.

and the majority have very little to do with mental health issues. Additionally who would take on the cost of the mental health checks?

People who want to buy a gun I guess, I don't expect anybody else to pay for my hobby. Isn't it hilarious that Americans think gun registration and background checks should be free but car registration is something they're seemingly happy to pay for? Even though you almost cannot live without a car in post-suburban America.

I'm ok with the user having to pay for there hobby, I just don't like it when costs are so large as to deter someone from that hobby. Such as a mental health exam that can easily cost $2,000. Not like that is burdensome or anything. Then there is the issue about those who aren't close to a mental healthcare professional, who may have to travel a good distance which only further increases the cost.

[Vitaphone Racing]

So you can't sell your Tec-9 to some shady firearms dealer who'll then pass it on to two fucked up high school kids.

Then set up a system for the tracking of the private sale of firearms. There are quite a few more reasonable ways to go about this.
1) Require private sales to be carried out through an FFL, who can document the procedure.
2) Set up private access to NICS so private sales can carry out easy back ground checks.
3) Set up an easy to access/online system for documenting the transfer of a firearm. Say an online Form 4473, or something similar, that the ATF holds onto, or a From 4473 that can be turned over and held by a local police department, or a form 4473 that can be filled out by individuals and given over to a local FFL. (though that gets close to proposal #1)

Except all this means fuck all because nobody is held accountable for any gun. Making the trafficking of guns illegal doesn't mean shit when you have no way of detecting an illegal trade until after another crime is committed. The whole point of registering a gun is to ensure gun X is with person X and that person X hasn't sent it on to person Y. You cannot crack down on the improper sale of firearms without registering them first, otherwise you have no way of determining if a sale has even taken place.

You point to the worst case scenario as a reason to carry out this plan, but mass shooters are incredibly rare.

I have no idea why people keep saying this. Does it resuscitate victims or something?

In case people go off the deep end in that year. A year might be too short of a time period, but this guy is on the money.

How many murders a year happen because the person has mental illness that a mental health check may stop?

How many murders are you willing to allow before you decide to do something?

Between 700-2,000 (10%). And you would only catch those who attempted to get a firearm legally.

So, 70-30% of people then. I'll take that.

When we know between 30-70% of the firearms used in crimes are obtained illegally.

Hence why gun registration and proper storage are key. You can't illegally obtain guns if
a) nobody is willing to give one to you because they know they're going to be caught.
b) you didn't bring diamond drill bits to crack somebody's gun safe.

You say "go off the deep end" like it is medical diagnosis that would be noticed. It honestly isn't.

It is. PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Paranoid Schizophrenia, et. al. are all easily diagnosed.

Except when they're used illegally, they can do a tremendous amount of damage.

The same can be said about a lot of things that are commonly available. And the trend is rather clear, very few firearms are actually used to injure or kill.

I'm unfamiliar of people using hammers to commit massacres.

People who want to buy a gun I guess, I don't expect anybody else to pay for my hobby. Isn't it hilarious that Americans think gun registration and background checks should be free but car registration is something they're seemingly happy to pay for? Even though you almost cannot live without a car in post-suburban America.

I'm ok with the user having to pay for there hobby, I just don't like it when costs are so large as to deter someone from that hobby.

Stiff shit. Some hobbies are expensive, some hobbies are not. If you think shooting is expensive, feel for the poor buggers who enjoy go-karting or gliding.

Such as a mental health exam that can easily cost $2,000.

I'd like to see more information behind this estimate.

Not like that is burdensome or anything.

Meh. I don't care if people aren't wealthy enough to shoot targets with me.

Then there is the issue about those who aren't close to a mental healthcare professional, who may have to travel a good distance which only further increases the cost.

General Practitioners are more than adequate for determining the basic state of one's mental health. Why do you think they need to see a mental healthcare professional? Is this answered in the information about your estimate?

[Super Perfect Cell]

Guns are weakling's play. I'm all for unrestricted ki usage.

[BK117B2]

Why do ammo sales need to be controlled? While ammo can be used without a gun it is a very inefficient method.

Why should guns be registered annually

So you can't sell your Tec-9 to some shady firearms dealer who'll then pass it on to two fucked up high school kids.

and/or why should mental health checks be done annually?

In case people go off the deep end in that year. A year might be too short of a time period, but this guy is on the money.

Only a very small percentage of guns are used illegally

Except when they're used illegally, they can do a tremendous amount of damage.

and the majority have very little to do with mental health issues. Additionally who would take on the cost of the mental health checks?

People who want to buy a gun I guess, I don't expect anybody else to pay for my hobby. Isn't it hilarious that Americans think gun registration and background checks should be free but car registration is something they're seemingly happy to pay for? Even though you almost cannot live without a car in post-suburban America.

You don't expect anyone to pay for your hobby, but you DO expect other people to pay for your desire that they be evaluated by a mental health professional. Why shouldn't YOU be the one paying for what you want?

[Vitaphone Racing]

So you can't sell your Tec-9 to some shady firearms dealer who'll then pass it on to two fucked up high school kids.

In case people go off the deep end in that year. A year might be too short of a time period, but this guy is on the money.

Except when they're used illegally, they can do a tremendous amount of damage.

People who want to buy a gun I guess, I don't expect anybody else to pay for my hobby. Isn't it hilarious that Americans think gun registration and background checks should be free but car registration is something they're seemingly happy to pay for? Even though you almost cannot live without a car in post-suburban America.

You don't expect anyone to pay for your hobby, but you DO expect other people to pay for your desire that they be evaluated by a mental health professional. Why shouldn't YOU be the one paying for what you want?

Lol seriously? Do you get other people to pay for your car registration? What a dumb argument.

[BK117B2]

You don't expect anyone to pay for your hobby, but you DO expect other people to pay for your desire that they be evaluated by a mental health professional. Why shouldn't YOU be the one paying for what you want?

Lol seriously? Do you get other people to pay for your car registration? What a dumb argument.

So you couldn't actually come up with any rational answer. Noted