The general gun control thread

[Big Jim P]

I'm not sure if I ever said "small minority" but I'll humor you. Yes, I only think a small minority of people are capable of passing a background check...

Then you're wrong.

14 million people in 2009 alone.

[Llamalandia]

Ok so wait why not, cause I don't get it.

Suggesting there is a sliding scale at which point certain levels of violence become acceptable (or "more" acceptable) legitimises the use of those levels of violence.

I'm sure you're going to tell me that spousal homicide or domestic abuse are neither acceptable nor "partly acceptable".
So why put them on a sliding scale of understandable violent reactions?

They should not feature on that scale. From a logical perspective, they don't.

That isn't what this is about though. It is about how serious vs trivial the reason for the gun violence is. I consider a cheating spouse less trivial than say, someone stealing a bag of Doritos. The violence isn't ok in either circumstance, but to say that one isn't different from the other is ridiculous.

[Sociobiology]

The other issue to his proposal and implementation would the be elimination/repeal of the 2nd Amendment and every state that has a 2nd Amendment equivalent in their state constitutions, just to even get the ball rolling on implementing his idea.
Just recently D.C. has had their bullshit stipulations on firearms struck down. State by state, city by city these types of 2nd Amendment Right delay tactics are being struck down and rightfully so.

several states already require permits for handgun purchases, and in many cases those permits are a lot harder to get than mine.
As long as the general permit is shall issue, it does not violate the constitution.

[Sociobiology]

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer%E2%80 ... collisions
I've already linked to the FBI for statistics for 2013 that show the number of burglary related deaths.

2) I don't have a problem with people owning guns for hunting. I have a problem with average middle-class people owning guns for protection, because it's an oxymoron. You aren't protecting yourself, you're arming the people most likely to murder you.

The BJS puts defensive gun uses at 338,700. It isn't an oxymoron if you consider more situations than just home invasion.

do you have a link for that, seems like an interesting study.

[Spirit of Hope]

The BJS puts defensive gun uses at 338,700. It isn't an oxymoron if you consider more situations than just home invasion.

do you have a link for that, seems like an interesting study.

I know this study makes reference to it (page 12). But it doesn't have the full story, there was another BJS study had much more detailed analysis but I don't still have the link.

EDIT looking at it again it looks like that is total for 2007-2011. I know I had one that stated the yearly number. Have to go dig that up.

[Grinning Dragon]

The other issue to his proposal and implementation would the be elimination/repeal of the 2nd Amendment and every state that has a 2nd Amendment equivalent in their state constitutions, just to even get the ball rolling on implementing his idea.
Just recently D.C. has had their bullshit stipulations on firearms struck down. State by state, city by city these types of 2nd Amendment Right delay tactics are being struck down and rightfully so.

several states already require permits for handgun purchases, and in many cases those permits are a lot harder to get than mine.
As long as the general permit is shall issue, it does not violate the constitution.

My home state of Minnesota required a permit to purchase a handgun from an FFL, between two private individuals it wasn't required. Now mind you the last time I was in Minnesota and purchased a handgun was in the 1990's and the law may have been changed since then. Minnesota has always been a bit nanny state-ish, glad I moved away from that fucking state.

[Sociobiology]

several states already require permits for handgun purchases, and in many cases those permits are a lot harder to get than mine.
As long as the general permit is shall issue, it does not violate the constitution.

My home state of Minnesota required a permit to purchase a handgun from an FFL, between two private individuals it wasn't required. Now mind you the last time I was in Minnesota and purchased a handgun was in the 1990's and the law may have been changed since then. Minnesota has always been a bit nanny state-ish, glad I moved away from that fucking state.

almost no states truly regulate private sales, which would be the problem.

[Llamalandia]

My home state of Minnesota required a permit to purchase a handgun from an FFL, between two private individuals it wasn't required. Now mind you the last time I was in Minnesota and purchased a handgun was in the 1990's and the law may have been changed since then. Minnesota has always been a bit nanny state-ish, glad I moved away from that fucking state.

almost no states truly regulate private sales, which would be the problem.

Iwonder how large o a problem problem private sales actually are though. I mean, aside from people who are already in illegal possession of a weapon selling it to someone else. I mean how many legal guns are illegally diverted this way, vs criminals just using straw purchases or the like to obtain otherwise legal firearms.

[Imperializt Russia]

almost no states truly regulate private sales, which would be the problem.

Iwonder how large o a problem problem private sales actually are though. I mean, aside from people who are already in illegal possession of a weapon selling it to someone else. I mean how many legal guns are illegally diverted this way, vs criminals just using straw purchases or the like to obtain otherwise legal firearms.

In 1991, participants of the BJS Inmate Survey stated where they had acquired firearms from. 27% bought from a retail outlet, so a commercial purchase. 9% of inmates who had used or carried a firearm reported having stolen that firearm personally.

Meanwhile, 31% of inmates reported they "got" their firearm from a family member or a friend. 28% acquired it from the black market, from a drug dealer, or from a fence.
5% described it as "other".

[Spirit of Hope]

Iwonder how large o a problem problem private sales actually are though. I mean, aside from people who are already in illegal possession of a weapon selling it to someone else. I mean how many legal guns are illegally diverted this way, vs criminals just using straw purchases or the like to obtain otherwise legal firearms.

In 1991, participants of the BJS Inmate Survey stated where they had acquired firearms from. 27% bought from a retail outlet, so a commercial purchase. 9% of inmates who had used or carried a firearm reported having stolen that firearm personally.

Meanwhile, 31% of inmates reported they "got" their firearm from a family member or a friend. 28% acquired it from the black market, from a drug dealer, or from a fence.
5% described it as "other".

BJS Study 2001
Based on 1997 and 1991 surveys of inmates.

Retail Store: 8.3 (1997) 14.7 (1991)
Pawnshop: 3.8 (1997) 4.2 (1991)
Gun show 0.7 (1997) 0.6 (1991)
Street/illegal source 39.2 (1997) 40.8 (1991)
Friends or family 39.6 (1997) 33.8 (1991)

I'm not disputing IR's numbers, his have details mine don't I'm just including some other ones to be looked at. Overall though it doesn't look like that many firearms go from legal owners to illegal owners/users through "clean" private sales.

EDIT: I apparently linked to the wrong study. Here is the right one.

[Imperializt Russia]

Something I've just spotted for the first time, 1% of survey respondents in the 1991 study (approximately 2100 respondents comprise this 1%) report using a "military style weapon" in a crime. Military-style weapon being classified as, for example, Uzi, AK, AR-15/M16.

The AWB targeted weapons that accounted for 1% of crime.

[Spirit of Hope]

Something I've just spotted for the first time, 1% of survey respondents in the 1991 study (approximately 2100 respondents comprise this 1%) report using a "military style weapon" in a crime. Military-style weapon being classified as, for example, Uzi, AK, AR-15/M16.

The AWB targeted weapons that accounted for 1% of crime.

Looks more like ti says between 1-3% used a military style weapon or automatic weapon.

[Patridam]

My question is, do those 'bought from family or friends' statistics also include staw sales by means of said family/friends? Or are those sorted under retail sales as well?

[Spirit of Hope]

My question is, do those 'bought from family or friends' statistics also include staw sales by means of said family/friends? Or are those sorted under retail sales as well?

I would imagine they include straw purchases in "family and friends." Retail likely means they purchased it themselves directly from the retailer.

[Llamalandia]

In 1991, participants of the BJS Inmate Survey stated where they had acquired firearms from. 27% bought from a retail outlet, so a commercial purchase. 9% of inmates who had used or carried a firearm reported having stolen that firearm personally.

Meanwhile, 31% of inmates reported they "got" their firearm from a family member or a friend. 28% acquired it from the black market, from a drug dealer, or from a fence.
5% described it as "other".

BJS Study 2001
Based on 1997 and 1991 surveys of inmates.

Retail Store: 8.3 (1997) 14.7 (1991)
Pawnshop: 3.8 (1997) 4.2 (1991)
Gun show 0.7 (1997) 0.6 (1991)
Street/illegal source 39.2 (1997) 40.8 (1991)
Friends or family 39.6 (1997) 33.8 (1991)

I'm not disputing IR's numbers, his have details mine don't I'm just including some other ones to be looked at. Overall though it doesn't look like that many firearms go from legal owners to illegal owners/users through "clean" private sales.

EDIT: I apparently linked to the wrong study. Here is the right one.

Well what we really need to know anyway is did the peoe have a felony on record before they obtained the gun from a friend relative via private sale? That is the relevant number here as a permit system even if applied to all private sales wouldn't do anything to prevent someone with a clean record from buying a gun from their brother and then killing someone.

[Patridam]

My question is, do those 'bought from family or friends' statistics also include staw sales by means of said family/friends? Or are those sorted under retail sales as well?

I would imagine they include straw purchases in "family and friends." Retail likely means they purchased it themselves directly from the retailer.

Ah, okay. I am not in strong favor of the government putting a whole lot of restrictions on private sales, but I do think that straw purchases are a growing problem; especially after being on a jury in a trial where a straw purchase partially led to three deaths.

[Diopolis]

The other issue to his proposal and implementation would the be elimination/repeal of the 2nd Amendment and every state that has a 2nd Amendment equivalent in their state constitutions, just to even get the ball rolling on implementing his idea.
Just recently D.C. has had their bullshit stipulations on firearms struck down. State by state, city by city these types of 2nd Amendment Right delay tactics are being struck down and rightfully so.

several states already require permits for handgun purchases, and in many cases those permits are a lot harder to get than mine.
As long as the general permit is shall issue, it does not violate the constitution.

The permits he's talking about are not shall-issue, however. And you seem to be unique among serious GCA's in that you acknowledge the need for a shall-issue system, rather than running away screaming from one and then making up or taking out of context "facts" to make it look bad.

[Spirit of Hope]

BJS Study 2001
Based on 1997 and 1991 surveys of inmates.

Retail Store: 8.3 (1997) 14.7 (1991)
Pawnshop: 3.8 (1997) 4.2 (1991)
Gun show 0.7 (1997) 0.6 (1991)
Street/illegal source 39.2 (1997) 40.8 (1991)
Friends or family 39.6 (1997) 33.8 (1991)

I'm not disputing IR's numbers, his have details mine don't I'm just including some other ones to be looked at. Overall though it doesn't look like that many firearms go from legal owners to illegal owners/users through "clean" private sales.

EDIT: I apparently linked to the wrong study. Here is the right one.

Well what we really need to know anyway is did the peoe have a felony on record before they obtained the gun from a friend relative via private sale? That is the relevant number here as a permit system even if applied to all private sales wouldn't do anything to prevent someone with a clean record from buying a gun from their brother and then killing someone.

~67% of murderers already have a criminal record. The source I got that from did not say what type of criminal record though, so I can't say if they would fail a background check because of it.

[Llamalandia]

several states already require permits for handgun purchases, and in many cases those permits are a lot harder to get than mine.
As long as the general permit is shall issue, it does not violate the constitution.

The permits he's talking about are not shall-issue, however. And you seem to be unique among serious GCA's in that you acknowledge the need for a shall-issue system, rather than running away screaming from one and then making up or taking out of context "facts" to make it look bad.

Yeah I mean I don't a hundred percent agree with how sociobiology system would be implemented but you have to admit he is for a gca a rather remarkable And reasonable person with whom pro 2nd amendment folks can dialogue with in a constructive. Now if only people like him weren't so rare among gca maybe something could actually get done to make America safer without infringing gun owner rights and liberties.

[Gautlund]

Look at all the freedom I own

[Diopolis]

The permits he's talking about are not shall-issue, however. And you seem to be unique among serious GCA's in that you acknowledge the need for a shall-issue system, rather than running away screaming from one and then making up or taking out of context "facts" to make it look bad.

Yeah I mean I don't a hundred percent agree with how sociobiology system would be implemented but you have to admit he is for a gca a rather remarkable And reasonable person with whom pro 2nd amendment folks can dialogue with in a constructive. Now if only people like him weren't so rare among gca maybe something could actually get done to make America safer without infringing gun owner rights and liberties.

Like I said, before having a conversation about guns, spend an hour at the shooting range. You don't even have to buy a gun; most will let you rent one as long as you don't take it off their property. Maybe if people bothered to do that, we could have a conversation instead of trying to do useless things. Part of that is the fault of the gun rights lobby, of course, as relatively moderate gun rights groups kick out the moderates and refuse to have any conversation either. Still, it behooves GCA's to at least try to learn what they're regulating.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Yeah I mean I don't a hundred percent agree with how sociobiology system would be implemented but you have to admit he is for a gca a rather remarkable And reasonable person with whom pro 2nd amendment folks can dialogue with in a constructive. Now if only people like him weren't so rare among gca maybe something could actually get done to make America safer without infringing gun owner rights and liberties.

Like I said, before having a conversation about guns, spend an hour at the shooting range. You don't even have to buy a gun; most will let you rent one as long as you don't take it off their property. Maybe if people bothered to do that, we could have a conversation instead of trying to do useless things. Part of that is the fault of the gun rights lobby, of course, as relatively moderate gun rights groups kick out the moderates and refuse to have any conversation either. Still, it behooves GCA's to at least try to learn what they're regulating.

I've offered to take gun control advocates to the range, so that they can see what my hobby is all about. I have offered to pay for their range time, provide the ammo, and provide eye/ear protection for them. None of them has taken me up on my offer.

[Haktiva]

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

An AK? You unpatriotic bastard!

Just kidding. RIP Mikhail Kalashnikov

[Gautlund]

Look at all the freedom I own

(Image)

An AK? You unpatriotic bastard!

Just kidding. RIP Mikhail Kalashnikov

Het

Is actually Romanian WASR, so not technically an AK or Russian.....but that's a little pet peeve I have when it comes to AK-patterned rifle. But 922r laws basically make it half-American. Once I get the new Magpul stock and handguard, it will be all American parts and thus a naturalized American

[Haktiva]

An AK? You unpatriotic bastard!

Just kidding. RIP Mikhail Kalashnikov

Het

Is actually Romanian WASR, so not technically an AK or Russian.....but that's a little pet peeve I have when it comes to AK-patterned rifle. But 922r laws basically make it half-American. Once I get the new Magpul stock and handguard, it will be all American parts and thus a naturalized American

I've heard good things about the Romanian copy. When I'm done with my tour, I'll have to seriously look up AKs in depth more, though I'm still partial to the M16/AR-15 just because that's what I've trained with.