The general gun control thread

[Sociobiology]

for some sales, for others we have no background check.
no background check for private sales, many states don't even have background checks for gun show purchases.

FFLs MUST runs a NICS background check, no matter WHERE they sell their firearms. Even if they sell firearms at a gun show, a background check must be performed. The "gun show" loophole isn't real,

you don't have to be an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show. Each state has different laws respecting gun shows.

what GCAs are talking about is PRIVATE sales.

no shit, that's what I'm talking about as well.

Want required background checks for private sales? Give non-FFLs access to NICS.

which they would have in my proposal, it would also be mandatory for them to use it.

[Grinning Dragon]

FFLs MUST runs a NICS background check, no matter WHERE they sell their firearms. Even if they sell firearms at a gun show, a background check must be performed. The "gun show" loophole isn't real,

you don't have to be an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show. Each state has different laws respecting gun shows.

what GCAs are talking about is PRIVATE sales.

no shit, that's what I'm talking about as well.

Want required background checks for private sales? Give non-FFLs access to NICS.

which they would have in my proposal, it would also be mandatory for them to use it.

And just how do you propose to enforce background checks on private sales between two people?

I just bought a few weapons from my buddy, I paid him cash, he gave me the weapons. All of this was done at his place.
Things like this happen all over America. So just how in the blue chocolate Jesus is something like background checks on private sales such as this EVER going to be enforced?

[Gun Manufacturers]

Some people don't have anywhere to go. For example, my apartment is on the 2nd floor, and I only have 1 door into/out of the apartment. Where would I go?

Where would you go if you awoke of a night to find that a fire had rendered the door impassable?

I'd hope I'd have a few minutes to deploy the emergency fire ladder I have in my room. I don't think an attacker would give me the opportunity.

[Gun Manufacturers]

im still waiting for an accurate definition of an assault rifle and "high capacity" magazine from these politicians.

There is an accurate definition of an assault rifle and they are already illegal. "Assault weapons" means "scary looking guns."

Not exactly. Full auto/select fire weapons made and registered with ATF before May 19, 1986 are legal for civilians to own.

[Tule]

you don't have to be an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show. Each state has different laws respecting gun shows.


no shit, that's what I'm talking about as well.


which they would have in my proposal, it would also be mandatory for them to use it.

And just how do you propose to enforce background checks on private sales between two people?

I just bought a few weapons from my buddy, I paid him cash, he gave me the weapons. All of this was done at his place.
Things like this happen all over America. So just how in the blue chocolate Jesus is something like background checks on private sales such as this EVER going to be enforced?

Through gun traces.

If a gun trace points at an individual that didn't do a background check on the person he sold his gun to, that individual should be punished.
Same thing applies if he doesn't keep his gun locked up or fails to report a theft.

Maine has already passed a similar law.

[Grinning Dragon]

And just how do you propose to enforce background checks on private sales between two people?

I just bought a few weapons from my buddy, I paid him cash, he gave me the weapons. All of this was done at his place.
Things like this happen all over America. So just how in the blue chocolate Jesus is something like background checks on private sales such as this EVER going to be enforced?

Through gun traces.

If a gun trace points at an individual that didn't do a background check on the person he sold his gun to, that individual should be punished.
Same thing applies if he doesn't keep his gun locked up or fails to report a theft.

Maine has already passed a similar law.

A gun trace? And all this without registration? How would the govt even know I have the weapon, let alone anyone else? Mandatory home inspections for everyone?

[Sociobiology]

And just how do you propose to enforce background checks on private sales between two people?

I just bought a few weapons from my buddy, I paid him cash, he gave me the weapons. All of this was done at his place.
Things like this happen all over America. So just how in the blue chocolate Jesus is something like background checks on private sales such as this EVER going to be enforced?

Through gun traces.

If a gun trace points at an individual that didn't do a background check on the person he sold his gun to, that individual should be punished.
Same thing applies if he doesn't keep his gun locked up or fails to report a theft.

Maine has already passed a similar law.

also of course simply making a gun purchased without a background check illegal, makes it fairly easy to enforce by having legally acquired firearms come with proof of being a legal purchase. If the police find you with a firearm that you don't have a permit for they arrest you, making it traceable also means you can convict the seller.

Its a lot like dynamite, I have a permi,t I can buy explosives legally, what stops me from selling it to someone who can't is if I do, I can go to prison.

[Sociobiology]

Through gun traces.

If a gun trace points at an individual that didn't do a background check on the person he sold his gun to, that individual should be punished.
Same thing applies if he doesn't keep his gun locked up or fails to report a theft.

Maine has already passed a similar law.

A gun trace? And all this without registration? How would the govt even know I have the weapon, let alone anyone else? Mandatory home inspections for everyone?

the same way they know if you have illegal dynamite, when you use it.

It also would not surprise me if you see stings occasionally .

[Llamalandia]

Obviously his party trick wasn't as safe as he thought. Sucks for him and his victim. But yeah, let's stick with discussion guns, I don't want to thread jack this.
But hey, lots of stupid people out there.

He didn't harm anyone on previous occasions. He did the same thing again and now a squadronmate has to wear a colostomy bag.

What was that about "perceived potential harm"? There's blind fucking idiocy. That occurred in this incident - it occurs with drunk driving.

And it should be punished accordingly. Just as drunk driving that results in actual harm should. Idk, need to recheck stats on how often drunk drivers safely reach destinations though to be honest.
The gun trick thing is a bit more oddly specific though, I mean how many people actually try and perform the trick? I mean, if it works 999/1000 out of a thousand times then I'm cool with continuing to allow it.

[Diopolis]

A gun trace? And all this without registration? How would the govt even know I have the weapon, let alone anyone else? Mandatory home inspections for everyone?

the same way they know if you have illegal dynamite, when you use it.

It also would not surprise me if you see stings occasionally .

So you want to implement registration. Would you also implement a licensing scheme?

[Sociobiology]

the same way they know if you have illegal dynamite, when you use it.

It also would not surprise me if you see stings occasionally .

So you want to implement registration. Would you also implement a licensing scheme?

to repeat.

My proposal
create a federal firearms permit.
It would be a lifetime permit

getting said permit requires a background check, a minimal fee to cover cost (~$5-15), a written test, a one afternoon class on firearms safety, and a practical test (demonstrate safety, hit a reasonable target at reasonable distance)

the licence can be revoked for gun violations (reckless discharge, illegal sales, ect.) , diagnosis of a serious mental disorder, or conviction of violent crime (armed robbery, attempted homicide, ect.).

To buy a firearm form any seller (including private sellers), to buy certain parts(like receivers),
and to buy ammunition you will need a valid permit.

Record of sales will be kept, but accessible only with a warrant.
so law enforcement can track dirty gun dealers, and illegal sales

Edit: things like concealed carry, collectors permits, and perhaps even different firearms type (shotgun, handgun, ect.) would be endorsements on the card.

[Llamalandia]

Ok fair enough, but how do they differ and how is there not a slippery slope from restriction of firearms to out right ban?

Same reason banning rape isn't a slippery slope to stationing federal agents in every bedroom.

I'm not sure it isn't, heck didn't some college start requiring like a written consent contract or else they'd automatically start considering any sex without a prior signed agreement to basically be rape? We are moving further and further down the slope. I may be exaggerating a bit, but seriously, I think it has been born out in other countries, perhaps not to the level of outright ban but that a trend of introducing ever stricter guns laws have been put in place as ech prievious measure proves ineffective or not "effective enough" for the anti gun ground.

[Sociobiology]

Same reason banning rape isn't a slippery slope to stationing federal agents in every bedroom.

I'm not sure it isn't, heck didn't some college start requiring like a written consent contract or else they'd automatically start considering any sex without a prior signed agreement to basically be rape? We are moving further and further down the slope. I may be exaggerating a bit, but seriously, I think it has been born out in other countries, perhaps not to the level of outright ban but that a trend of introducing ever stricter guns laws have been put in place as ech prievious measure proves ineffective or not "effective enough" for the anti gun ground.

and you have countries like Switzerland (which I am using as a model) which have reasonable gun laws and high gun ownership.

[Diopolis]

So you want to implement registration. Would you also implement a licensing scheme?

to repeat.

My proposal
create a federal firearms permit.
It would be a lifetime permit

getting said permit requires a background check, a minimal fee to cover cost (~$5-15), a written test, a one afternoon class on firearms safety, and a practical test (demonstrate safety, hit a reasonable target at reasonable distance)

the licence can be revoked for gun violations (reckless discharge, illegal sales, ect.) , diagnosis of a serious mental disorder, or conviction of violent crime (armed robbery, attempted homicide, ect.).

To buy a firearm form any seller (including private sellers), to buy certain parts(like receivers),
and to buy ammunition you will need a valid permit.

Record of sales will be kept, but accessible only with a warrant.
so law enforcement can track dirty gun dealers, and illegal sales

Edit: things like concealed carry, collectors permits, and perhaps even different firearms type (shotgun, handgun, ect.) would be endorsements on the card.

I'm not so sure about different firearms types being endorsements on the card- shotguns, handguns, and rifles have the same basic safety rules. Maybe separate endorsements for a handful of things(like silencers or automatics), but most firearms should be purchasable with the same license. I also think that concealed carry should be a separate license, perhaps requiring the federal permit as a prereq.
Otherwise, it looks good so long as it's shall-issue.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Through gun traces.

If a gun trace points at an individual that didn't do a background check on the person he sold his gun to, that individual should be punished.
Same thing applies if he doesn't keep his gun locked up or fails to report a theft.

Maine has already passed a similar law.

also of course simply making a gun purchased without a background check illegal, makes it fairly easy to enforce by having legally acquired firearms come with proof of being a legal purchase. If the police find you with a firearm that you don't have a permit for they arrest you, making it traceable also means you can convict the seller.

Its a lot like dynamite, I have a permi,t I can buy explosives legally, what stops me from selling it to someone who can't is if I do, I can go to prison.

Except you can make your own firearms. Then, they won't have a serial number (it's only required if you manufacture for sale) OR any sort of record.

[Patridam]

I'm not sure it isn't, heck didn't some college start requiring like a written consent contract or else they'd automatically start considering any sex without a prior signed agreement to basically be rape? We are moving further and further down the slope. I may be exaggerating a bit, but seriously, I think it has been born out in other countries, perhaps not to the level of outright ban but that a trend of introducing ever stricter guns laws have been put in place as ech prievious measure proves ineffective or not "effective enough" for the anti gun ground.

and you have countries like Switzerland (which I am using as a model) which have reasonable gun laws and high gun ownership.

Switzerland cannot exactly be considered any sort of rule, considering the compulsory military service for all males. They have not only high gun ownership but a fairly unified respect of firearms intrinsic to their culture thanks to said service, so the high gun ownership has relatively little to with their gun restriction plans.

[Llamalandia]

I see a lot of comments regarding fight/flight, but most of them seem to be missing the point.

First, making a decision on one or the other before the situation arises would be stupid.

Second, a firearm only increases ones ability to defend oneself, it doesn't diminish the ability to flee.

As I've said, I don't mean to suggest that running away is some kind of self-defence panacea, only that some seem too eager to consider 'fight' the only real option, and that perhaps they consequently ought not have guns.

Well, I can kinda understand your position in the light of say the Zimmerman MArtin killing. But if someone breaks into your house? Well, they have no reasonable expectation to not get blasted. Doesn't mean you have to kill them, and if you can safely flee or safely engage without actually shooting them I would always, think that to be preferable to shooting someone, even if they are a criminal. That said, castle doctrine bro, once you've retreated to your home, the next move is yours, it is your decision to flight or flee. Whether you are trigger happy or not doesn't really change that right. You have the discretion to defend as you see fit, barring some utterly cruel contraption or something likely to present a danger to uninvolved third parties. eg. no automated gun turrets for instance.

[Sociobiology]

also of course simply making a gun purchased without a background check illegal, makes it fairly easy to enforce by having legally acquired firearms come with proof of being a legal purchase. If the police find you with a firearm that you don't have a permit for they arrest you, making it traceable also means you can convict the seller.

Its a lot like dynamite, I have a permi,t I can buy explosives legally, what stops me from selling it to someone who can't is if I do, I can go to prison.

Except you can make your own firearms. Then, they won't have a serial number (it's only required if you manufacture for sale) OR any sort of record.

except making your own firearm from scratch is 1. difficult and 2.still requires a background check to sell.
if you are talking about assembling a firearm, you might want to scroll down and read my actual proposal.
you can try to poke holes in it all you want but we have data from other countries that shows it works.

[Heartlost]

Decentralized argument?
tfw?

[Sociobiology]

and you have countries like Switzerland (which I am using as a model) which have reasonable gun laws and high gun ownership.

Switzerland cannot exactly be considered any sort of rule, considering the compulsory military service for all males. They have not only high gun ownership but a fairly unified respect of firearms intrinsic to their culture thanks to said service, so the high gun ownership has relatively little to with their gun restriction plans.

actually it does their gun control law are reasonable enough to prevent high homicide rates but accessible enough to allow anyone who is not a child, mentally ill, or a convicted criminal to buy a firearm.
Switzerland is the perfect model, a gun culture with minimal but sensible restrictions.

[Patridam]

20 years ago, police, media, and polticians were all over 'saturday night specials', cheap, small caliber pistols, since they were/are used in a disproportionately large number of gun crimes. Now they're all over the extremely poorly defined "assault weapon" category. Why the change in focus?

[Diopolis]

20 years ago, police, media, and polticians were all over 'saturday night specials', cheap, small caliber pistols, since they were/are used in a disproportionately large number of gun crimes. Now they're all over the extremely poorly defined "assault weapon" category. Why the change in focus?

Because the bulk of the gun control crowd knows absolutely nothing about what they're trying to regulate and makes decisions based off emotional appeal, especially what seems scary at the time.

[Patridam]

Switzerland cannot exactly be considered any sort of rule, considering the compulsory military service for all males. They have not only high gun ownership but a fairly unified respect of firearms intrinsic to their culture thanks to said service, so the high gun ownership has relatively little to with their gun restriction plans.

actually it does their gun control law are reasonable enough to prevent high homicide rates but accessible enough to allow anyone who is not a child, mentally ill, or a convicted criminal to buy a firearm.
Switzerland is the perfect model, a gun culture with minimal but sensible restrictions.

Switzerland's gun restrictions are not the reason they have lower homicide rates than America.
Correlation does not equal causation.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Except you can make your own firearms. Then, they won't have a serial number (it's only required if you manufacture for sale) OR any sort of record.

except making your own firearm from scratch is 1. difficult and 2.still requires a background check to sell.
if you are talking about assembling a firearm, you might want to scroll down and read my actual proposal.

80% receivers (which ATF does not classify as firearms) can be sold without any paperwork, and it isn't difficult to finish one. Jigs are available to finish most of them, and they don't usually take much in the way of specialized equipment.

I'm not talking about making firearms to sell. That would require a manufacturers FFL. And I've read your proposal, it doesn't apply to what I'm talking about.

[Sociobiology]

except making your own firearm from scratch is 1. difficult and 2.still requires a background check to sell.
if you are talking about assembling a firearm, you might want to scroll down and read my actual proposal.

80% receivers (which ATF does not classify as firearms) can be sold without any paperwork, and it isn't difficult to finish one.

I'll underline the important part.

its sad when I can deal with your post in the post you quote.