Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Greed and Death]

But what is Greece exporting? In your previous posts you explained ship manufacturing is not the best export materials.

The most of its industrial exports is refined petroleum and food.
While it's not a massive export, and largely dependent on imports of raw materials (especially crude petroleum), punishing it further would only make things worse for Greece.

Also, even the most greatest fans of EU integration can see the euro was a bad idea from begin.

Actually no. The bad idea was allowing some governments to fudge their accounts so they could join; and even worse was not having (before or at the same time) a complete integration of the political level of the EZ economies, that is, common tax policies, common debt policies, common treasury, and everything in the hands of the Commission instead of having various countries squabbling along.

I so wish I was the guy who got to help Greece fudge there accounts, I would have made enough to retire.

Well with any luck the next country to get into the Euro zone comes to my bank for national debt washing.

[Conserative Morality]

From the Beeb...

Pensions: Ekas top-up grant for some 200,000 poorer pensioners will be phased out by 2020 - as demanded by lenders. But Mr Tsipras says no to immediate Ekas cut for the wealthiest 20% of Ekas recipients

Could someone explain this to me? My understanding of the situation is pretty spotty and I might be misreading this, but is this really a supposedly left-wing leader agreeing to shaft the poor and defending the rich?

[Votumnia]

From the Beeb...

Pensions: Ekas top-up grant for some 200,000 poorer pensioners will be phased out by 2020 - as demanded by lenders. But Mr Tsipras says no to immediate Ekas cut for the wealthiest 20% of Ekas recipients

Could someone explain this to me? My understanding of the situation is pretty spotty and I might be misreading this, but is this really a supposedly left-wing leader agreeing to shaft the poor and defending the rich?

EKAS goes to the very poor pensioners to help them make ends meet. Tsipras offered to gradually stop EKAS until 2019 (I think 2019 and not 2020 as stated above). The creditorsasked for EKAS to gradually stop until 2019 for the 80% of the recipients and for the rest 20% to stop immediately

[Geilinor]

From the Beeb...

Pensions: Ekas top-up grant for some 200,000 poorer pensioners will be phased out by 2020 - as demanded by lenders. But Mr Tsipras says no to immediate Ekas cut for the wealthiest 20% of Ekas recipients

Could someone explain this to me? My understanding of the situation is pretty spotty and I might be misreading this, but is this really a supposedly left-wing leader agreeing to shaft the poor and defending the rich?

I think he's saying that he wants to phase it out for everyone over time without an immediate cut.

[Atlanticatia]

Krugman on Greece 5 years ago. Damn.

[Greed and Death]

Krugman on Greece 5 years ago. Damn.

(Image)

If they default, the problem Greece runs into is the Euros leaving greece are not coming back in. Greece will simply run out of Euros to have the Euro be a viable currency there without the bailout.

[Pollona]

Another Update

It seems like the last minute window to compromise is closed. The Eurozone leaders will not negotiate with Greece until after the referendum this Sunday. Meanwhile, the credit rating agencies have downgraded the status of Greek banks to "junk" and cut Greece's bond rating again (who knew they were not at the bottom already?).

Just another happy barrel of sunshine from Athens.

[Geilinor]

Another Update

It seems like the last minute window to compromise is closed. The Eurozone leaders will not negotiate with Greece until after the referendum this Sunday. Meanwhile, the credit rating agencies have downgraded the status of Greek banks to "junk" and cut Greece's bond rating again (who knew they were not at the bottom already?).

Just another happy barrel of sunshine from Athens.

More uncertainty until Sunday. What a mess.

[Novus America]

Another Update

It seems like the last minute window to compromise is closed. The Eurozone leaders will not negotiate with Greece until after the referendum this Sunday. Meanwhile, the credit rating agencies have downgraded the status of Greek banks to "junk" and cut Greece's bond rating again (who knew they were not at the bottom already?).

Just another happy barrel of sunshine from Athens.

Greece is also literally running out of cash. And imports becoming impossible, threatening shortages.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/cash-crunch ... 1435791588

“Tsipras has turned this country into North Korea,” the 83-year-old Ms. Andreaki said Tuesday, shaking her head about Greece’s prime minister, Alexis Tsipras."

[Risottia]

Syriza can't just sack managers of the public sector due to their political allegiance without solid proof of their guilt, there is a long bureucratic road in need for that to happen.

I guess that's because of laws about public sector contracts: doesn't Syriza and its allies have enough seats in the Parliament to change those laws?

Do you think Tsipras is an absolute monarch just because he managed to form a coaliation government?

Ofc not. Rest reassured, this side of the Ionian we have some experience with coalition cabinets too.

Greece is very much ruled by Pasok and ND in many areas, including; Justice, Army, Police, Local Government(Syriza is nearly non-existent there due to the local elections happening before Syriza's popularity gain), Bureaucracy

Wait. Local gov't, I understand. But aren't Justice, Army and Police under the control of the national executive?

etc .....Syriza and Anel only hold a majority in the parliament, it would take years for syriza to cleanse the country from this 30-year-old(some say older) political machine.

Not to play the Stalinist, but I think the time for a purge has come.

So you agree that austerity is positive?

Not always. Just as it isn't always negative.

As for Greece, it failed not because it was implemented poorly, hell it was(and remains) the most harsh austerity programme of all the countries mentioned, with tremendous humanitarian effects on our society, but most importantly(at least for you); it caused the majority of Greek and Greek-based companies who based their profits in internal consumption to go bankrupt/leave, or in the best case lose tremendous amounts of capital, this, along with the impoverishment and unemployment of large parts of the Greek people meant less taxes for the government.

That's a fair point. Which means we Europeans (especially Greeks, but not just the Greeks) need a new way of combining a strict control on the deficit - because letting the deficit soar means our social budgets will be fucked and our governments end basically in the hands of big banks - with solidarity and growth policies. I would consider that STILL a form of austerity - ideally, I'd go for policies where you can't spend the money you don't have in your coffers at the moment, thus eliminating the use of public debt, but it isn't going to happen in the next 10 years anywhere.

It failed because that's what austerity is designed for; to bring societies to their knees, so that a free market capitalist system can exist completely unrestricted without laws, or anyone voicing an opinion.

Well, no. Austerity policies in Italy during the early '70s didn't bring Italy to its knees and we didn't get an unregulated Reaganomics system. And while the more recent wave of austerity has impacted on workers' rights, too (see Renzi's so-called "Jobs Act"), we haven't ended up in a lolbertarian nightmare.

Also, defaulting isn't the best of option, because, the world being what it is, in the future Greece will need more loans to kickstart its economy again, and defaulting isn't going to give better loan conditions in the next future.

Good think I don't support Greece defaulting then.

Ok, that's something we agree on for sure.

The "only other solution" is outright denied by the creditors.

And why is it being denied? I guess it's because the Greek cabinet has failed to earn any trust.

Trust my ass, feelings have no place in political and economic juxtaposition between governments and officials, only people like you and me buy into this.[/quote]
Well, dunno: trust isn't just a feeling, it's the reasonable certainty, based on previous experience, that one is going to do what he says.

The politicians want (at best) to remain in power and protect their and their supporters interests and bussinessmen just want to make profits out of such situations. Both sides are egotistic as hell, so no one has any trust for the other right from the beggining. There's no such a thing as "trust" in modern, or older times' politics.

In the above meaning, yes, there is.

If greece declared tommorow that it hands down all of its northern half to be a free-trade zone with no labour laws and no taxation for all European companies, most European leaders would praise Greece for its braveness and call them honorable people and idiotic shite like that(as they did when Samaras' government was in power).

Seriously? I don't think that Merkel or the ECB are calling for that.

You're completely misinterpreting the proposal and ignoring extremely serious parts of it.
1)VAT will not only be increased in luxury products, it will be increased in all of the Islands of Greece practically wrecking one of the poorest regions of Greece(despite turism, just look at your very own Sicily and Sardinia),

Then again you can't really have tax-exempt areas all over the country.
Also, the main problems with Sicily and Sardinia are widespread criminality (which leads to unemployment and brain drain) and tax evasion.

Back to the VAT issue, what do you suggest instead? Because while VAT is a shitty tax during crisis times, it is easier and quicker to collect than other forms of taxation. One could raise the real estate taxes, or the income taxes (especially on the higher incomes, I'm a big fan of that), and also the capital gain taxes, but the problem is also time.

as well as by 2% in general, furthermore Farmers will be excempt by all current reliefs, damning a whole sector that already has been hurt greatly in the crisis to uncertainity and chaos.

Don't Greek farmers already get a fair share from the CAP?

2)The Pension system will undergo a reform law from 2012 that was deemed to harsh to be implemented back then, it will practically turn the "Defined contribution" pension system into a negative "Defined benefit" pesnion system were the state will be able to pay you half the money you've managed to save in your working life in order to benefit the economy, since "working stamps" will be nullified.

Same as in other parts of Europe, I'm afraid.

3)Greece will keep bailing out its Banks, so all the money from the creditors will just end up in Credit Agricole, Commerzbank and ECB.

Oh wow, the "too big to fail" shit again. Yes, that's bullshit, I agree.
I'm all for letting big business fail, and to use the money they would need instead to protect the workers and the small-scale enterpreneurs.

And yes, you're a duck; Ris the Neoliberduck.

I shall take exception at this.


Btw, sorry if I'm getting a bit carried off. This whole situation pisses me off to no end, with Tsipras (for whom I voted at the last EP elections, btw) looking clueless, Varoufakis looking like the left-wing version of Schäuble - who is being his usual jerkass self - , Merkel being more concerned with her local popularity than anything else, Draghi trying to keep the whole bunch together and everyone pulling him by the jacket, Hollande and Renzi being totally ineffective, Britain, America and China blundering in with their suggestions about something that isn't really their business, and my mandatory paying for a future pension which isn't even going to cover my bills, and which, if I'm lucky, will be seeing no sooner than age 70.

[Baltenstein]

Not to play the Stalinist, but I think the time for a purge has come.

The sad and disappointing thing is that Syriza (due to being catapulted from a 3.5 % to a 35 % party over the span of a few years) absorbed a huge chunk of the old PASOK guard into its ranks, even people who were in government positions before. They didn't break with the old nepotistic governance mentality as they should have.

[Teemant]

It seems that Greece banks may run out of cash during next few days. I wonder what might happen in this case. Will there be first IOUs?

[Camelza]

Syriza can't just sack managers of the public sector due to their political allegiance without solid proof of their guilt, there is a long bureucratic road in need for that to happen.

I guess that's because of laws about public sector contracts: doesn't Syriza and its allies have enough seats in the Parliament to change those laws?

There needs to be a constitutional ammendment which can't happen before 2017 if I I remeber correctly due to an idiotic "timeframe in-between constitutional ammendmends" that was introduced by ND to avoid exactly this.

Do you think Tsipras is an absolute monarch just because he managed to form a coaliation government?

Ofc not. Rest reassured, this side of the Ionian we have some experience with coalition cabinets too.

Greece is very much ruled by Pasok and ND in many areas, including; Justice, Army, Police, Local Government(Syriza is nearly non-existent there due to the local elections happening before Syriza's popularity gain), Bureaucracy

Wait. Local gov't, I understand. But aren't Justice, Army and Police under the control of the national executive?

No, justice is completely "independent", especially the High Court and it is traditionally conservative-leaning, as for the police, while its chief is appointed by the government, everyone else isn't and everyone else is pretty much far-right-winger, or anti-communists in their majority with powerful links to the political machine I mentioned earlier. The army is also very much independent even though sworn to do as the government wishes no matter what. Hell, in older days it was said that the Army was ruled by fascists, the navy by royalists and the airforce by communists.

etc .....Syriza and Anel only hold a majority in the parliament, it would take years for syriza to cleanse the country from this 30-year-old(some say older) political machine.

Not to play the Stalinist, but I think the time for a purge has come.

For said purge to happen Syriza must have connections, otherwise it's pretty similar to an urban police officer coming to a village to investigate an economic crime, but the village protects the criminal from the policeman. I don't know if this is a good comparisson, but I hope it gets the message through.

So you agree that austerity is positive?

Not always. Just as it isn't always negative.

As for Greece, it failed not because it was implemented poorly, hell it was(and remains) the most harsh austerity programme of all the countries mentioned, with tremendous humanitarian effects on our society, but most importantly(at least for you); it caused the majority of Greek and Greek-based companies who based their profits in internal consumption to go bankrupt/leave, or in the best case lose tremendous amounts of capital, this, along with the impoverishment and unemployment of large parts of the Greek people meant less taxes for the government.

That's a fair point. Which means we Europeans (especially Greeks, but not just the Greeks) need a new way of combining a strict control on the deficit - because letting the deficit soar means our social budgets will be fucked and our governments end basically in the hands of big banks - with solidarity and growth policies. I would consider that STILL a form of austerity - ideally, I'd go for policies where you can't spend the money you don't have in your coffers at the moment, thus eliminating the use of public debt, but it isn't going to happen in the next 10 years anywhere.

That would be ideal considering the current kind of austerity that is proposed.

It failed because that's what austerity is designed for; to bring societies to their knees, so that a free market capitalist system can exist completely unrestricted without laws, or anyone voicing an opinion.

Well, no. Austerity policies in Italy during the early '70s didn't bring Italy to its knees and we didn't get an unregulated Reaganomics system. And while the more recent wave of austerity has impacted on workers' rights, too (see Renzi's so-called "Jobs Act"), we haven't ended up in a lolbertarian nightmare.

Well, pherhaps it isn't always this the case regarding austerity, but it is in the case of Greece ...worker laws, even working hours, are practically non-existent and companies do as they see fit due to the high unemployment and underfunded state mechanisms. I live in this lolbertarian nightmare.

Trust my ass, feelings have no place in political and economic juxtaposition between governments and officials, only people like you and me buy into this.

Well, dunno: trust isn't just a feeling, it's the reasonable certainty, based on previous experience, that one is going to do what he says.

The European Union has "betrayed" its ideals in some aspects regarding the crisis over here. I don't believe in trust, I believe in pacts and alliances, which need balance ...something that doesn't exist in the Eurozone. I believe that Greece was doomed by the time its leaders forced the country to the Eurozone when it could not afford it. Not to mention the fucking olympics right afterwards.

The politicians want (at best) to remain in power and protect their and their supporters interests and bussinessmen just want to make profits out of such situations. Both sides are egotistic as hell, so no one has any trust for the other right from the beggining. There's no such a thing as "trust" in modern, or older times' politics.

In the above meaning, yes, there is.

Not in the way I perceive what "trust" means, but sure.

If greece declared tommorow that it hands down all of its northern half to be a free-trade zone with no labour laws and no taxation for all European companies, most European leaders would praise Greece for its braveness and call them honorable people and idiotic shite like that(as they did when Samaras' government was in power).

Seriously? I don't think that Merkel or the ECB are calling for that.

They don't I was exaggerating to make a point. The would like it though, wouldn't they?

You're completely misinterpreting the proposal and ignoring extremely serious parts of it.
1)VAT will not only be increased in luxury products, it will be increased in all of the Islands of Greece practically wrecking one of the poorest regions of Greece(despite turism, just look at your very own Sicily and Sardinia),

Then again you can't really have tax-exempt areas all over the country.
Also, the main problems with Sicily and Sardinia are widespread criminality (which leads to unemployment and brain drain) and tax evasion.

Such regions though can't have a higher VAT, like the rest of the country, because they're piss poor. Now imagine Crete, which is populated in majority by the most poor farmers of Greece and is an island, with a population of over 600'000 people; what would happen to Crete, which is already poorer than most of Greece(which is sad even to think about) if said tax excempts were lifted. I wouldn't blame Cretans if they decided to give independence a chance, even though I deeply believe most Cretans would be extremely insulted by me for even suggesting this option.

Back to the VAT issue, what do you suggest instead? Because while VAT is a shitty tax during crisis times, it is easier and quicker to collect than other forms of taxation. One could raise the real estate taxes, or the income taxes (especially on the higher incomes, I'm a big fan of that), and also the capital gain taxes, but the problem is also time.

I suggest introducing and increasing progressive income taxation, lowering the vat and corporate taxes and lifting restrictions to increase plurality on our monopoly(not the game)-oriented economy. Also nationalise the banks.

Of course these can't happen, under current restrictions.

as well as by 2% in general, furthermore Farmers will be excempt by all current reliefs, damning a whole sector that already has been hurt greatly in the crisis to uncertainity and chaos.

Don't Greek farmers already get a fair share from the CAP?

90% of Greek farmers are in the verge of economic destruction due to being mainly (like most Greek economic sectors) getting profits from internal consumption, which has decreased dramatically due to austerity.

2)The Pension system will undergo a reform law from 2012 that was deemed to harsh to be implemented back then, it will practically turn the "Defined contribution" pension system into a negative "Defined benefit" pesnion system were the state will be able to pay you half the money you've managed to save in your working life in order to benefit the economy, since "working stamps" will be nullified.

Same as in other parts of Europe, I'm afraid.

I'm not exactly a fan of lemming-like attitudes.

3)Greece will keep bailing out its Banks, so all the money from the creditors will just end up in Credit Agricole, Commerzbank and ECB.

Oh wow, the "too big to fail" shit again. Yes, that's bullshit, I agree.
I'm all for letting big business fail, and to use the money they would need instead to protect the workers and the small-scale enterpreneurs.

Well this can't happen, so the Greek state will keep bailing out private banks without even telling them what to do, ...in this case we're the frustrated creditors(not really, the state just gives free money, not loans), only unlike Europe, we aren't allowed to set restrictions on the banks.

And yes, you're a duck; Ris the Neoliberduck.

I shall take exception at this.

I hope you didn't take offense.

Btw, sorry if I'm getting a bit carried off. This whole situation pisses me off to no end, with Tsipras (for whom I voted at the last EP elections, btw) looking clueless, Varoufakis looking like the left-wing version of Schäuble - who is being his usual jerkass self - , Merkel being more concerned with her local popularity than anything else, Draghi trying to keep the whole bunch together and everyone pulling him by the jacket, Hollande and Renzi being totally ineffective, Britain, America and China blundering in with their suggestions about something that isn't really their business, and my mandatory paying for a future pension which isn't even going to cover my bills, and which, if I'm lucky, will be seeing no sooner than age 70.

I don't think you're getting carried off. Everyone is pretty frustrated with this situation we're in ...you wouldn't believe the conversations I have over here, everyone is awaiting havoc and just saying "we'll get through this, we can support each other"/"There's always our villages and small farms" and similar stuff. Waiting is the worse part.

[Camelza]

Not to play the Stalinist, but I think the time for a purge has come.

The sad and disappointing thing is that Syriza (due to being catapulted from a 3.5 % to a 35 % party over the span of a few years) absorbed a huge chunk of the old PASOK guard into its ranks, even people who were in government positions before. They didn't break with the old nepotistic governance mentality as they should have.

Barring Kouroublis, most of Syriza's big heads and governmental officials, were politicians of Syriza before the party's popularity gain. While syriza absorbed Pasok's vote, this wasn't in absolute parallel with Pasok's politics and officials as well.
Pasok still retains a huge web of connections all over the country and has more officials than voters, syriza doesn't have that web.

The notion that Syriza=Pasok is getting old. Syriza is far from perfect and far from what I'd consider a party I'd vote for in peaceful times, but it isn't pasok.

[Risottia]

I guess that's because of laws about public sector contracts: doesn't Syriza and its allies have enough seats in the Parliament to change those laws?

There needs to be a constitutional ammendment which can't happen before 2017 if I I remeber correctly due to an idiotic "timeframe in-between constitutional ammendmends" that was introduced by ND to avoid exactly this.

What the fuck... I imagine there's no way of running to the ECJ over that, eh?

No, justice is completely "independent", especially the High Court and it is traditionally conservative-leaning, as for the police, while its chief is appointed by the government, everyone else isn't and everyone else is pretty much far-right-winger, or anti-communists in their majority with powerful links to the political machine I mentioned earlier. The army is also very much independent even though sworn to do as the government wishes no matter what. Hell, in older days it was said that the Army was ruled by fascists, the navy by royalists and the airforce by communists.

Ha, here we've had historically a fascist Air Force, a left-leaning Navy and intraforce political squabbling in the Army, the Carabinieri and the Police.
Ok for the independence of the magistrates, that's pretty much standard, but how about the Ministry of Justice, can't they reorganise people around - maybe with the help of sectors of the judiciary? Anyway, "undesirable" officers can always be shunted to places with... let's say... loftier-sounding titles and less decisional power...

etc .....Syriza and Anel only hold a majority in the parliament, it would take years for syriza to cleanse the country from this 30-year-old(some say older) political machine.

Not to play the Stalinist, but I think the time for a purge has come.

For said purge to happen Syriza must have connections, otherwise it's pretty similar to an urban police officer coming to a village to investigate an economic crime, but the village protects the criminal from the policeman. I don't know if this is a good comparisson, but I hope it gets the message through.[/quote]
Yeah, the image is quite clear.

That would be ideal considering the current kind of austerity that is proposed.

Let's hope.

Well, pherhaps it isn't always this the case regarding austerity, but it is in the case of Greece ...worker laws, even working hours, are practically non-existent and companies do as they see fit due to the high unemployment and underfunded state mechanisms. I live in this lolbertarian nightmare.

Maybe we could tackle the incomes and properties of companies and top managers, giving tax discounts to those who don't act as jerks to their employees and raise their wages above the bare minimum?

The European Union has "betrayed" its ideals in some aspects regarding the crisis over here.

You break into an open door here. The last decent Commission we had was the Prodi Commission. Fuck EPP, they have aggravated the situation in Ukraine and made a mess out of our economy.

I don't believe in trust, I believe in pacts and alliances, which need balance ...something that doesn't exist in the Eurozone. I believe that Greece was doomed by the time its leaders forced the country to the Eurozone when it could not afford it. Not to mention the fucking olympics right afterwards.

I think the only way of sorting this mess is forming a tighter Union, as soon as possible. We need to have the same labour regulations, the same salaries, the same public debt bonds, the same taxation system all over Europe - just as we already did with industrial and trade standards.

Seriously? I don't think that Merkel or the ECB are calling for that.

They don't I was exaggerating to make a point. The would like it though, wouldn't they?

I don't know. Merkel seems to be quite into regulated capitalism (or "liberal-social market economy" if we want) more than into ultraliberism. Schäuble on the other hand...

Such regions though can't have a higher VAT, like the rest of the country, because they're piss poor.

Maybe if one balanced the higher VAT with a discount on real estate taxes for the residents' homes and their fields?

Back to the VAT issue, what do you suggest instead? Because while VAT is a shitty tax during crisis times, it is easier and quicker to collect than other forms of taxation. One could raise the real estate taxes, or the income taxes (especially on the higher incomes, I'm a big fan of that), and also the capital gain taxes, but the problem is also time.

I suggest introducing and increasing progressive income taxation, lowering the vat and corporate taxes and lifting restrictions to increase plurality on our monopoly(not the game)-oriented economy. Also nationalise the banks.

Ok, the bit about taxes could work but it will take time. The part about nationalising the banks, I'm dubious. I'd be all for letting them fall, protect the smaller accounts, and then create a new banking system. Here in Italy there was an old tradition of cooperative banking (the Banche Popolari) which proved quite good in providing credit to small-scale enterpreneurs at reasonable interest rates.

90% of Greek farmers are in the verge of economic destruction due to being mainly (like most Greek economic sectors) getting profits from internal consumption, which has decreased dramatically due to austerity.

Seriously? I thought a larger part of the farming went into exports - I mean, just thinking about olive oil and pistachios...

I'm not exactly a fan of lemming-like attitudes.

Good point.

Well this can't happen, so the Greek state will keep bailing out private banks without even telling them what to do,

Would it take a lot of time to pass a law mandating governmental control over the businesses that take governmental bailouts? I think that could be a useful tool.

I shall take exception at this.

I hope you didn't take offense.

Nah. Well, maybe a bit, but no big deal.

I don't think you're getting carried off. Everyone is pretty frustrated with this situation we're in ...you wouldn't believe the conversations I have over here, everyone is awaiting havoc and just saying "we'll get through this, we can support each other"/"There's always our villages and small farms" and similar stuff. Waiting is the worse part.

Eh, I've heard similar things in 2011 here. Maybe with a little less of a desperate attitude.


Hope I didn't mess too much with the quote nesting...

[Camelza]

There needs to be a constitutional ammendment which can't happen before 2017 if I I remeber correctly due to an idiotic "timeframe in-between constitutional ammendmends" that was introduced by ND to avoid exactly this.

What the fuck... I imagine there's no way of running to the ECJ over that, eh?

I senserely don't know, all I know is that they can't ammend the constitution, even with a majority before 2017. If they could present this law to the ECJ, or even the ECHR, and nullify it, I would be more than pleased. The current constitution is a mess, despite being quite correct in some aspects.

No, justice is completely "independent", especially the High Court and it is traditionally conservative-leaning, as for the police, while its chief is appointed by the government, everyone else isn't and everyone else is pretty much far-right-winger, or anti-communists in their majority with powerful links to the political machine I mentioned earlier. The army is also very much independent even though sworn to do as the government wishes no matter what. Hell, in older days it was said that the Army was ruled by fascists, the navy by royalists and the airforce by communists.

Ha, here we've had historically a fascist Air Force, a left-leaning Navy and intraforce political squabbling in the Army, the Carabinieri and the Police.

I guess it's a tradition of the region, to have different politics being represented by different parts of the army.

Ok for the independence of the magistrates, that's pretty much standard, but how about the Ministry of Justice, can't they reorganise people around - maybe with the help of sectors of the judiciary? Anyway, "undesirable" officers can always be shunted to places with... let's say... loftier-sounding titles and less decisional power...

The judiciary, in all levels, is as I mentioned, very independent and the ministry of justice is considered to be somewhat powerless, so they propably can't re-organise people around. I never thought separation of powers would turn out to be negative.

Well, pherhaps it isn't always this the case regarding austerity, but it is in the case of Greece ...worker laws, even working hours, are practically non-existent and companies do as they see fit due to the high unemployment and underfunded state mechanisms. I live in this lolbertarian nightmare.

Maybe we could tackle the incomes and properties of companies and top managers, giving tax discounts to those who don't act as jerks to their employees and raise their wages above the bare minimum?

That's a pretty good idea, though I doubt the corporate protectionist policies of the Eurogroup would allow such policies to take place.

The European Union has "betrayed" its ideals in some aspects regarding the crisis over here.

You break into an open door here. The last decent Commission we had was the Prodi Commission. Fuck EPP, they have aggravated the situation in Ukraine and made a mess out of our economy.

Yeah, you're right.
In addition, I believe that the EPP is in large parts responsible for the general economic recession in Europe and for pussing the EU further towards being ruled by technocrats and not politicians, but for now we'll have to be patient.

I don't believe in trust, I believe in pacts and alliances, which need balance ...something that doesn't exist in the Eurozone. I believe that Greece was doomed by the time its leaders forced the country to the Eurozone when it could not afford it. Not to mention the fucking olympics right afterwards.

I think the only way of sorting this mess is forming a tighter Union, as soon as possible. We need to have the same labour regulations, the same salaries, the same public debt bonds, the same taxation system all over Europe - just as we already did with industrial and trade standards.

Don't we all Europeans want that? Unfortunately, divisions in Europe are still at large and many powerful people don't wish to break those barriers. I will always drink to such an idea, of a united, equal, free and just Europe.

They don't I was exaggerating to make a point. The would like it though, wouldn't they?

I don't know. Merkel seems to be quite into regulated capitalism (or "liberal-social market economy" if we want) more than into ultraliberism. Schäuble on the other hand...

Well, Merkel seems to succumb to Sheuble's positions over the last years, so...

Maybe if one balanced the higher VAT with a discount on real estate taxes for the residents' homes and their fields?
Still, it would be just a little bit less worse for them.


Ok, the bit about taxes could work but it will take time. The part about nationalising the banks, I'm dubious. I'd be all for letting them fall, protect the smaller accounts, and then create a new banking system. Here in Italy there was an old tradition of cooperative banking (the Banche Popolari) which proved quite good in providing credit to small-scale enterpreneurs at reasonable interest rates.

The Agricultural Bank was created for this exact reason once over here, it doesn't serve this reason anymore. I doubt if the government would try such an innovative idea of establishing co-op banks for the common people and small enterprises.

Seriously? I thought a larger part of the farming went into exports - I mean, just thinking about olive oil and pistachios...

Speaking as a fellow mediterranean towards another fellow mediterranean; What percent of the olive oil that is produced in Italy is consumed by Italians?
(interesting fact; it may be surprising but Olive oil comes after wheat, corn, barley and sugar beets in production).
Most of the agrarian sector sells its products to product-processing companies who in turn sell these products to local-owned supermarket firms who in turn sell these products to the Greek market, also in some cases producer and processor are the one and the same(ie;EBOL, my town's local dairy company). This web was constructed having as its basis internal consumption and not exports.

Well this can't happen, so the Greek state will keep bailing out private banks without even telling them what to do,

Would it take a lot of time to pass a law mandating governmental control over the businesses that take governmental bailouts? I think that could be a useful tool.

That was one of the promises of Syriza, unfortunately they weren't able to persuade the creditors that would be a good move, plus I think it would contradict with some laws passed earlier.

I hope you didn't take offense.

Nah. Well, maybe a bit, but no big deal.

Well, sorry in that case, I meant it mostly as a joke.

I don't think you're getting carried off. Everyone is pretty frustrated with this situation we're in ...you wouldn't believe the conversations I have over here, everyone is awaiting havoc and just saying "we'll get through this, we can support each other"/"There's always our villages and small farms" and similar stuff. Waiting is the worse part.

Eh, I've heard similar things in 2011 here. Maybe with a little less of a desperate attitude.


Hope I didn't mess too much with the quote nesting...

I just cross my fingers after clicking submit.

[Zachary Nichols]

Greece should sell its islands, historical monuments and government-owned businesses to countries and people to keep itself afloat, for however many days/hours it'll buy.

Oh wait. I guess Mauritius has a lifeline.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Greece should sell its islands, historical monuments and government-owned businesses to countries and people to keep itself afloat, for however many days/hours it'll buy.

Oh wait. I guess Mauritius has a lifeline.

Well, as I've said previously, massive spending cuts, coupled with tax cuts and privatizations, could very well loosen the debt burden on Greece's government. Austerity is simply rubbish, whereas plans for a massive Keynesian stimulus would only drive Greece directly into default. When the other options are simply unfeasible, and have proven to be irrational, the radical plan may be best.

Though, selling it's islands? Eh, seems a bit...futile. Greece's best hope is this crowdfund.

[Teemant]

Greece should sell its islands, historical monuments and government-owned businesses to countries and people to keep itself afloat, for however many days/hours it'll buy.

Oh wait. I guess Mauritius has a lifeline.

Well, as I've said previously, massive spending cuts, coupled with tax cuts and privatizations, could very well loosen the debt burden on Greece's government. Austerity is simply rubbish, whereas plans for a massive Keynesian stimulus would only drive Greece directly into default. When the other options are simply unfeasible, and have proven to be irrational, the radical plan may be best.

Though, selling it's islands? Eh, seems a bit...futile. Greece's best hope is this crowdfund.

I doubt massive stimulus is an option (and probably never was) anymore because they can't borrow from markets and I doubt other countries taxpayers would be okay with it.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Well, as I've said previously, massive spending cuts, coupled with tax cuts and privatizations, could very well loosen the debt burden on Greece's government. Austerity is simply rubbish, whereas plans for a massive Keynesian stimulus would only drive Greece directly into default. When the other options are simply unfeasible, and have proven to be irrational, the radical plan may be best.

Though, selling it's islands? Eh, seems a bit...futile. Greece's best hope is this crowdfund.

I doubt massive stimulus is an option (and probably never was) anymore because they can't borrow from markets and I doubt other countries taxpayers would be okay with it.

No, god no, but SYRIZA has been promoting it ever since their inception.

The possibility of a Grexit, while seemingly fair and decent, becomes scary when you realize that SYRIZA can fully implement their left wing economic agenda when Merkel and the Troika aren't reviewing every move they make.

[Teemant]

I doubt massive stimulus is an option (and probably never was) anymore because they can't borrow from markets and I doubt other countries taxpayers would be okay with it.

No, god no, but SYRIZA has been promoting it ever since their inception.

The possibility of a Grexit, while seemingly fair and decent, becomes scary when you realize that SYRIZA can fully implement their left wing economic agenda when Merkel and the Troika aren't reviewing every move they make.

I have no idea what Syriza is doing. Even how they phrase the referendum is strage to me: YES - We agree with a deal proposed by Eurogroup (deal that doesn't exist) and NO - We get a better agreement.
Do they think that when Greece people will vote NO on referendum they can just go to Brussels and demand everything (because people have said so). I mean what a mess.

Grexit probably is more scary to people in Greece than to rest of the eurozone. Eventhough nobody wants Greece to leave the eurozone has still thought about this scenario (and have plans should this happen).

[Baltenstein]

No, god no, but SYRIZA has been promoting it ever since their inception.

The possibility of a Grexit, while seemingly fair and decent, becomes scary when you realize that SYRIZA can fully implement their left wing economic agenda when Merkel and the Troika aren't reviewing every move they make.

I have no idea what Syriza is doing. Even how they phrase the referendum is strage to me: YES - We agree with a deal proposed by Eurogroup (deal that doesn't exist) and NO - We get a better agreement.
Do they think that when Greece people will vote NO on referendum they can just go to Brussels and demand everything (because people have said so). I mean what a mess.

Grexit probably is more scary to people in Greece than to rest of the eurozone. Eventhough nobody wants Greece to leave the eurozone has still thought about this scenario (and have plans should this happen).

Matteo Renzi recently said in an interview that during the Eurogroup summits a group of Euro countries are openly pushing towards Grexit behind the scenes. When asked which countries, he said that he can't explicitedly name them but that they are "relatively recent members of the European Union".

So my guess would be Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Latvia, Finnland. The countries whose governments are more hawkish on Greece than Woflgang Schaeuble himself.

[Kilobugya]

I doubt massive stimulus is an option (and probably never was) anymore because they can't borrow from markets and I doubt other countries taxpayers would be okay with it.

The issue is that without stimulus, most of the Greek debt will _never_ be repaid. So for the sake of those currently owning Greek bonds (which, thanks to the usual transfert of private debt into public debt, is mostly governments and public entities), a "Marshall plan" for Greece is required. Freeze all repayment of debt/interests for some years, allow a massive stimulus, and _once_ Greece is out of depression, have them repay, slowly, part of the debt. Either that, or give up the whole debt. That's the choice creditors (ie, European governments, ECB, ...) have.

[Kilobugya]

I have no idea what Syriza is doing.

I have a very clear idea of that : they are trying, as they were elected to do, to find a long-term solution allowing Greece to get out of an eternal loop of recession and austerity.

Do they think that when Greece people will vote NO on referendum they can just go to Brussels and demand everything (because people have said so). I mean what a mess.

If the creditors don't want to lose all the billions they have of Greek bonds, they _will_ have to find an agreement. And the Greek government will be much stronger in its demands when it's clear a majority of Greek people won't accept any more austerity non-sense.

Grexit probably is more scary to people in Greece than to rest of the eurozone.

Wrong. Grexit would harm Greece a lot on the short term, but on the long term much less than endless loop of austerity. Meanwhile, Grexit will harm the eurozone a lot on the long term, because of how much money will the eurozone lose, and mostly because the eurozone will expose itself to the attacks of speculators betting on the next to exit the eurozone.

[Calimera II]

I have no idea what Syriza is doing. Even how they phrase the referendum is strage to me: YES - We agree with a deal proposed by Eurogroup (deal that doesn't exist) and NO - We get a better agreement.
Do they think that when Greece people will vote NO on referendum they can just go to Brussels and demand everything (because people have said so). I mean what a mess.

Grexit probably is more scary to people in Greece than to rest of the eurozone. Eventhough nobody wants Greece to leave the eurozone has still thought about this scenario (and have plans should this happen).

Matteo Renzi recently said in an interview that during the Eurogroup summits a group of Euro countries are openly pushing towards Grexit behind the scenes. When asked which countries, he said that he can't explicitedly name them but that they are "relatively recent members of the European Union".

So my guess would be Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Latvia, Finnland. The countries whose governments are more hawkish on Greece than Woflgang Schaeuble himself.

Ughh, it must be Estonia.