Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Novus America]

34 miuntes until bankruptcy....

It's not actually bankruptcy. It's something that would occur before bankruptcy. Not paying the IMF on time is not the same as being bankrupt.

Bankruptcy is a legal protection that you can request and a court can grant, but there are no legal structures that I am aware of that can provide Greece such a status.

[Novus America]

Take Texas as an example. If Texas was in recession but say, New York wasn't you guys would probably give some money to Texas to sort their shit out, perhaps raised through extra revenue from New York. There's no similar method in Europe yet there needs to be if the euro is to be anyway viable.

Exactly. Many states in the US would be in a worse situation than Greece if they were treated the same way.

As I stated before we (the U.S.) have legal structures for dealing with governent default. The problem is Europe does not.

We are not bailing out Puerto Rico, (although it is not a state). If they default we have court systems to resolve outstanding debts with the resolution determined and legally enforced by a neutral third party.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Supposedly, Greece didn't pay the IMF.

That's...problematic.

[Geilinor]

Supposedly, Greece didn't pay the IMF.

That's...problematic.

It's a default, I don't know what difference a referendum result for the deal would make.

[Calimera II]

Supposedly, Greece didn't pay the IMF.

That's...problematic.

Not really. The IMF can't do shit.

[Pollona]

Supposedly, Greece didn't pay the IMF.

That's...problematic.

Not really. The IMF can't do shit.

They can stop giving Greece money.

[Benian Republic]

What is the current debt?

[Arkolon]

What is the current debt?

177.1% of GDP, or around $425 billion.

[Baltenstein]

Not really. The IMF can't do shit.

They can stop giving Greece money.

Greece most important creditor by far are the Euro countries, so a withdrawal of the IMF won't change much at this point. Of course, the country will continue to be excluded from the stock markets for years to come.

[Arkolon]

They can stop giving Greece money.

Greece most important creditor by far are the Euro countries, so a withdrawal of the IMF won't change much at this point. Of course, the country will continue to be excluded from the stock markets for years to come.

Greece being in arrears to the IMF has serious repercussions on Eurogroup who may (and I think have although can't recall the source) themselves also decide to just stop helping Greece until repayments are made. It is no doubt a very serious turn of events.

[Zurkerx]

What is the current debt?

177.1% of GDP, or around $425 billion.

Well, that sounds like a lot.

I expect Greece not to be in the EU for very long. However, if the other European countries give in, that could be problematic though I doubt it will happen.

[Borusenfront]

34 miuntes until bankruptcy....

It's not actually bankruptcy. It's something that would occur before bankruptcy. Not paying the IMF on time is not the same as being bankrupt.

On another forum I heard Greece will not yet be bankrupted, on 1st July they will only recieve the Bills while another more month will take until Greece pays the bill.

[Pollona]

They can stop giving Greece money.

Greece most important creditor by far are the Euro countries, so a withdrawal of the IMF won't change much at this point. Of course, the country will continue to be excluded from the stock markets for years to come.

In terms of sheer size of the debt composition, yes. The IMF only has about 10 Billion Euros worth of loans to Greece. However, defaulting on IMF loans carries with it immense consequences. If you default to the "lender of last resort" for the world, institutional investors will be very weary about investing in any Greek debt. More worrisome than the stock market, Greece may be excluded from the bond market for years until it settles with the IMF. The government may not be so able to secure long term liquidity outside very costly short-term loans.

In the meantime, the IMF will suspend any further aid to Greece. As a result, it is that much harder for Greece to pay back it's existing debt.

Incidentally, a large batch of Greek Treasury bills are due for repayment this month. It will be interesting to see if they default on those to.

[Ashworth-Attwater]

Geez, who could have seen that coming?

[Camelza]

Well, truth is if Greece defaults the nations that will have the greatest problem from it would be these countries.

Not quite. Yes, blowing 40 billion € would be a blow for Italy, but Greece wasn't going to repay them anyway, and the fundamentals of the Italian and Spanish economies are much better than 3-4 years ago.

Tsipras's merely claiming that it would be destructive for all if Greece defaults and given they have not many other options it is quite possible.

The point is that
a) it's actually not THAT destructive, given the size of the Greek population and of the Greek economy
b) it pisses off the citizens of those countries who have had to go through a lot of cuts to their rights (not just benefits, rights, as certified by the judiciary in various cases), thus eroding further international sympathy for the plight of Greece

I won't argue these points. I'm just trying to explain the situation from another point-of-view, not necessarily one I share.

I don't entirely agree with that notion, but it wasn't directed towards the people of said countries as a kind of terrorism

That is exactly how it was perceived, though.

That's rather unpleasant, no one here thought of it in this light.

And many European governments are taking public stances that are detrimental to Greece's citizens.

It's the same shit other countries have had to go through, only that those other countries actually went through painful cuts.

And we didn't? Are you kidding me? Greece faced the worst austerity policies these five years, no one can deny this.

Shall we sacrifice one country to save the rest? We could avoid all that. But it's late, so whatever happens is unknown from now on.

It's not about sacrificing Greece to save the rest of Europe. The rest of Europe isn't as fucked up as the Greek coffers. It's about having a plan to save Greece and its citizens, and Tsipras so far has failed to present an effective solution.

How are you going to save Greece and its citizens with more austerity? If anything this(the memorandum, current proposal, etc) is a plan to save Greek banks and make sure Greece will continue paying its debts regardless the wellbeing of the people living in this state. Austerity itself is simply a way to reduce worker rights and production cost, saving companies in the expense of the working people.
I haven't had you shorted for the neoliberal austerity-advocate type Ris.

[Camelza]

177.1% of GDP, or around $425 billion.

Well, that sounds like a lot.

I expect Greece not to be in the EU for very long. However, if the other European countries give in, that could be problematic though I doubt it will happen.

EU=/=Euro
Why should we leave the EU?

As for the second part: No, it won't happen, I'm certain of it.

[CTALNH]

Not really. The IMF can't do shit.

They can stop giving Greece money.

They already have our banks are closed.

[CTALNH]

Not quite. Yes, blowing 40 billion € would be a blow for Italy, but Greece wasn't going to repay them anyway, and the fundamentals of the Italian and Spanish economies are much better than 3-4 years ago.


The point is that
a) it's actually not THAT destructive, given the size of the Greek population and of the Greek economy
b) it pisses off the citizens of those countries who have had to go through a lot of cuts to their rights (not just benefits, rights, as certified by the judiciary in various cases), thus eroding further international sympathy for the plight of Greece

I won't argue these points. I'm just trying to explain the situation from another point-of-view, not necessarily one I share.

That is exactly how it was perceived, though.

That's rather unpleasant, no one here thought of it in this light.

It's the same shit other countries have had to go through, only that those other countries actually went through painful cuts.

And we didn't? Are you kidding me? Greece faced the worst austerity policies these five years, no one can deny this.

It's not about sacrificing Greece to save the rest of Europe. The rest of Europe isn't as fucked up as the Greek coffers. It's about having a plan to save Greece and its citizens, and Tsipras so far has failed to present an effective solution.

How are you going to save Greece and its citizens with more austerity? If anything this(the memorandum, current proposal, etc) is a plan to save Greek banks and make sure Greece will continue paying its debts regardless the wellbeing of the people living in this state. Austerity itself is simply a way to reduce worker rights and production cost, saving companies in the expense of the working people.
I haven't had you shorted for the neoliberal austerity-advocate type Ris.

You hadn't?

Really dude? The internationalist sympathies of most people here end the moment they think their lives are affected by it and go immediately to blame the source rather than call for more solidarity.

[Arkolon]

I see the term 'neoliberal' is thrown around as some kind of insult, but as an avowed neoliberal, I think it's best to clear things up. You can't call everything you don't like neoliberalism. It doesn't work like that. Neoliberalism means economic liberalism, it means being at least vaguely right-of-centre on today's spectrum, it means advocating for a free market and free trade. Austerity, for example, is not a neoliberal policy. I'm not sure why people think it is. In reality, it seems as if the term 'neoliberal' is becoming what 'fascist' meant 10 years ago, what 'reactionary' meant 50 years ago, and what 'communist' meant in the 1950s. It's political mislabeling, giving a whole loosely-linked set of people and ideas a single label on behalf of some hivemind. "Fascist" and "reactionary" meant any conservative and "communist" meant any kind of social democrat. I'm sure you hate it when some American pundits call Obama a socialist, so why do you do the European equivalent of calling everything you don't like 'neoliberal'?

Rant over, skip if you want. Slow news morning in Athens, there's admittedly little to talk about until Eurogroup, Athens, or Washington DC hacks out a proposal.

[Risottia]

And we didn't? Are you kidding me? Greece faced the worst austerity policies these five years, no one can deny this.

Yes, and were they effective? Were the incompetent managers sent home? Were the tax evaders found and prosecuted? Was the deficit/GDP cut down? Were absurd benefits eliminated?

How are you going to save Greece and its citizens with more austerity? If anything this(the memorandum, current proposal, etc) is a plan to save Greek banks and make sure Greece will continue paying its debts regardless the wellbeing of the people living in this state. Austerity itself is simply a way to reduce worker rights and production cost, saving companies in the expense of the working people.

The problem is that banks are also granting the circulation of currency, which is fundamental in the current system, especially for the lower classes who can't just move their money to offshore accounts. The only other solution would be to nationalise banks right now.

I haven't had you shorted for the neoliberal austerity-advocate type Ris.

Because I'm not one. Take a peep at my earlier posts in this thread and others.

You hadn't?
Really dude? The internationalist sympathies of most people here end the moment they think their lives are affected by it and go immediately to blame the source rather than call for more solidarity.

Says the dude who thinks blackmailing people and other countries is a good thing.

[Arkolon]

That was quick. Watch it unfold.

[Sebtopiaris]

"So, my people, are we fucked, or ARE WE FUCKED?"
-Tspiras rn

[Arkolon]

"So, my people, are we fucked, or ARE WE FUCKED?"
-Tspiras rn

Greferendum, 5/6/15
[ ] Yes, we're fucked.
[ ] Yep, very fucked.

[Greed and Death]

It's not actually bankruptcy. It's something that would occur before bankruptcy. Not paying the IMF on time is not the same as being bankrupt.

Bankruptcy is a legal protection that you can request and a court can grant, but there are no legal structures that I am aware of that can provide Greece such a status.

A default is missing your bill. Greece missed a payment hence defaulted.

Bankruptcy is a process of handling a debt by an outside party (the Court).

[Minoa]

Bankruptcy is a legal protection that you can request and a court can grant, but there are no legal structures that I am aware of that can provide Greece such a status.

A default is missing your bill. Greece missed a payment hence defaulted.

Bankruptcy is a process of handling a debt by an outside party (the Court).

The IMF not calling it a default seems to highlight some caution from the IMF itself, which I may have missed out, but according to The Guardian article, “if it looks like a default, swims like a default, and quacks like a default, then it’s probably a default”.