Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Geilinor]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

The HDP is the only party that would support such a thing.

[Pollona]

I've been hearing accusations of Greeks having a short working day and whining about it. And the constant expansion of the government by cronies who are given positions by governmental figures at all levels. How true is it?

I'd like a Greek to answer this.

The red part is absolutely false.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -desk.html

The orange part was partially true up until the last ND government ..if Samaras' government did something good that was that they didn't do that.

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

[Filimons]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/busin ... .html?_r=0

[Martean]

Oh well...
I better start planning my immigration to the US.

You have EU citizenship . . .

Where is he going to go? Portugal? Spain? Romania?

The EU is doomed. Even Germany.

[Camelza]

The red part is absolutely false.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -desk.html

The orange part was partially true up until the last ND government ..if Samaras' government did something good that was that they didn't do that.

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

Not really. The problem stems from heavy taxation in imported materials and a quite high VAT in products made by companies, thus production costs more, so companies work with less manpower by extending their workers working hours, resulting in high worker hours, large unemployment figures and less profit, thus less "productivity".

[Natapoc]

The red part is absolutely false.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -desk.html

The orange part was partially true up until the last ND government ..if Samaras' government did something good that was that they didn't do that.

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

Why do you hate the Greek people so much? Why do you feel the need to slander Greek workers?

[Camelza]

You have EU citizenship . . .

Where is he going to go? Portugal? Spain? Romania?

The EU is doomed. Even Germany.

It's not doomed, but I presume the US would do better economically than Europe, plus I have seen how immigrants live in Italy, Germany, my country and other countries as well and I guess that being an immigrant from Europe in the US is far better.

[Geilinor]

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

Why do you hate the Greek people so much? Why do you feel the need to slander Greek workers?

Slander? France has a standard 35-hour week and some of the highest productivity. The difference is because of technology and education.

[Martean]

The red part is absolutely false.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -desk.html

The orange part was partially true up until the last ND government ..if Samaras' government did something good that was that they didn't do that.

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

The concept of productivity is not understood by many, and this leads to misinterpretations.

Greece, and many other EU countries, especially mediterranean ones, have a very low productivity per hour worked. But first of all, you whould know how productivity is measured:

Amount a worker generates/hours worked.

This does not neccessarily means that a more hard-working person is going to have a higher productivity. For instance, a person working in a lab, which normally have few employees but generate an inmense revenue, will have a higher productivity than a waiter in a restaurant by the sea. But this does not necessarily means more effort. Besides, prices are not homogeneus among Europe, so as countries like Germany or Belgium have higher prices than Greece or Portugal, this means if a german worker and its portuguese counterpart both produce the same thing and sell it in their respective countries, the portuguese will sell it for a lower price and thus have less productivity.

I know that you were not calling Greeks lazy or nothing similar in your post. But many people do and I saw this as the opportunity to tell this. But do not take it as a personal attack or something like that.

[Filimons]

You have EU citizenship . . .

Where is he going to go? Portugal? Spain? Romania?

The EU is doomed. Even Germany.

I don't think the EU is doomed. The Mediterranean member-states aren't in the best economic condition but others aren't all that bad.

Where is he going to go? Portugal? Spain? Romania?

The EU is doomed. Even Germany.

It's not doomed, but I presume the US would do better economically than Europe, plus I have seen how immigrants live in Italy, Germany, my country and other countries as well and I guess that being an immigrant from Europe in the US is far better.

Oh well. Your choice I suppose. Let's end the thread-jack.

[Camelza]

Why do you hate the Greek people so much? Why do you feel the need to slander Greek workers?

Slander? France has a standard 35-hour week and some of the highest productivity. The difference is because of technology and education.

I'd argue that education is one of the things Greece doesn't really have a problem with, according to PISA and the OECD. Our infrustructure is terrible and our bureucratic system has yet to turn virtual, so technology + High corporate and production taxation is pherhaps the greatest factor.
Also, what Martean suggests is actually true.

[Pollona]

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

Not really. The problem stems from heavy taxation in imported materials and a quite high VAT in products made by companies, thus production costs more, so companies work with less manpower by extending their workers working hours, resulting in high worker hours and large unemployment figures.

I was more tying into your point about the total number of hours Greeks work. The discrepancy is not that Greeks work less (or significantly less) than their European counterparts, but their overall measured productivity is quite lower.

It's a part of the cause-effect link. The effect in this case being lower measured productivity. So, why is productivity lower? Well it could be to X, Y, and Z factors. The problems you described are certainly plausible explanations. I don't know that much about Greek labor market flexibility, but someone earlier in the thread stated a lot of Greeks are employed part time.

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

Why do you hate the Greek people so much? Why do you feel the need to slander Greek workers?

Stating the obvious is not a sign of hate or malice. The discrepancies show up in the raw numbers. Facts in of themselves are not slanderous.

I know that you were not calling Greeks lazy or nothing similar in your post. But many people do and I saw this as the opportunity to tell this. But do not take it as a personal attack or something like that.

No problem. I didn't consider it a personal attack, rather, a very useful clarification.

One minor point. The best metrics for productivity also adjust for Purchasing Power between various countries.

[Chestaan]

Where is he going to go? Portugal? Spain? Romania?

The EU is doomed. Even Germany.

I don't think the EU is doomed. The Mediterranean member-states aren't in the best economic condition but others aren't all that bad.

It's not doomed, but I presume the US would do better economically than Europe, plus I have seen how immigrants live in Italy, Germany, my country and other countries as well and I guess that being an immigrant from Europe in the US is far better.

Oh well. Your choice I suppose. Let's end the thread-jack.

The EU may not be doomed, but the Euro has definitely been a disaster. There's simply no mechanism built into the EU to deal with the different business cycles across the member states.

[Camelza]

It's a part of the cause-effect link. The effect in this case being lower measured productivity. So, why is productivity lower? Well it could be to X, Y, and Z factors. The problems you described are certainly plausible explanations. I don't know that much about Greek labor market flexibility, but someone earlier in the thread stated a lot of Greeks are employed part time.

Many are indeed employed part-time and this is a serious factor, but the main problem with productivity stems mostly from high taxation, expensive imports, bureucratic obstacles and a decrease in the domestic buying power; all these factors combined mean that Greek companies have to work and pay more to produce a product and thus have a far smaller profit and in turn productivity.

[Novus America]

The biggest problem is productivity. Even though they work so many hours Greek workers are not as productive as their other Eurozone counterparts.

Why do you hate the Greek people so much? Why do you feel the need to slander Greek workers?

Productivity is an objective, easily calculated number. It is how much montetary value you produce per man hour. It is indisputable Greece has low productivity. This is not saying Greeks are lazy. You can be a very hard worker and have low productivity. Productivity is a structural, management, organizational and regulatory issue. Much of it comes down to how the bussiness is organized and managed. You can get an MBA degree, they will teach you how to make a bussiness more productive.

[Calimera II]

Why do you hate the Greek people so much? Why do you feel the need to slander Greek workers?

Productivity is an objective, easily calculated number. It is how much montetary value you produce per man hour. It is indisputable Greece has low productivity. This is not saying Greeks are lazy. You can be a very hard worker and have low productivity. Productivity is a structural, management, organizational and regulatory issue. Much of it comes down to how the bussiness is organized and managed. You can get an MBA degree, they will teach you how to make a bussiness more productive.

Productivity in Greece is higher than in South Korea, Russia and Estonia.

[Novus America]

I don't think the EU is doomed. The Mediterranean member-states aren't in the best economic condition but others aren't all that bad.

Oh well. Your choice I suppose. Let's end the thread-jack.

The EU may not be doomed, but the Euro has definitely been a disaster. There's simply no mechanism built into the EU to deal with the different business cycles across the member states.

This is a major problem in the EU, you have no federal court system, just a court of last resort. If Puerto Rico defaults, the creditors will sue, and lawyers will try to work out a compromise (settlement). If they cannot work out a settlement than a neutral third party arbiter, either hired by both sides, or a federal court will create a legally binding, final deal that both sides are legally required to implement. This will be designed to cause the least pain to all parties involved.

In this Greece case you have no neutral third party to create and mandate a fair, final compromise that conclusively resolves the issue. You have politicians not third party lawyers, fighting and no neutral third party to resolve the issue taking both sides interests into account, who can then force both sides to actually implement the decision.

[Camelza]

Productivity is an objective, easily calculated number. It is how much montetary value you produce per man hour. It is indisputable Greece has low productivity. This is not saying Greeks are lazy. You can be a very hard worker and have low productivity. Productivity is a structural, management, organizational and regulatory issue. Much of it comes down to how the bussiness is organized and managed. You can get an MBA degree, they will teach you how to make a bussiness more productive.

Productivity in Greece is higher than in South Korea, Russia and Estonia.

Apparently it's not enough.
:/

[Calimera II]

Productivity in Greece is higher than in South Korea, Russia and Estonia.

Apparently it's not enough.
:/

Objectively, Greece isn't very productive when you compare it with countries like Germany, France, The Netherlands and Norway. But people are extremely exaggerating when they say that Greeks are lazy.

[Chestaan]

The EU may not be doomed, but the Euro has definitely been a disaster. There's simply no mechanism built into the EU to deal with the different business cycles across the member states.

This is a major problem in the EU, you have no federal court system, just a court of last resort. If Puerto Rico defaults, the creditors will sue, and lawyers will try to work out a compromise (settlement). If they cannot work out a settlement than a neutral third party arbiter, either hired by both sides, or a federal court will create a legally binding, final deal that both sides are legally required to implement. This will be designed to cause the least pain to all parties involved.

In this Greece case you have no neutral third party to create and mandate a fair, final compromise that conclusively resolves the issue. You have politicians not third party lawyers, fighting and no neutral third party to resolve the issue taking both sides interests into account, who can then force both sides to actually implement the decision.

Even worse, it's impossible to make use of monetary policy to combat recessions. The US can get over this by having a unified fiscal policy, meaning if one state gets into economic trouble, the other's can subsidise it.

[Novus America]

Productivity in Greece is higher than in South Korea, Russia and Estonia.

Apparently it's not enough.
:/

As has been pointed out it is still lower than the U.S. and many EU countries. Russia is definitely NOT a country you want to emulate, and South Korea has very long hours, Boosting productivity is the only way other than a larger workforce or longer hours to make your economy grow. GDP is the total product per year (instead of per hour) for your country. So your only choices for growth are more people working, more hours worked each year, and/or more productivity.

And longer hours is subject to the law of diminishing returns. The more exhausted somebody is the less productive they become.

[Calimera II]

Apparently it's not enough.
:/

As has been pointed out it is still lower than the U.S. and many EU countries.

Greece isn't the US. Greece isn't western Europe. Greece is poorer.

Russia is definitely NOT a country you want to emulate, and South Korea has very long hours,

Greece also has very, very long hours. Greeks work longer than Germans, French, Italians, Spaniards, Swiss, Danes etc.

Boosting productivity is the only way other than a larger workforce or longer hours to make your economy grow. GDP is the total product per year (instead of per hour) for your country. So your only choices for growth are more people working, more hours worked each year, and/or more productivity.

Investments ↑ → Productivity ↑.

[Novus America]

This is a major problem in the EU, you have no federal court system, just a court of last resort. If Puerto Rico defaults, the creditors will sue, and lawyers will try to work out a compromise (settlement). If they cannot work out a settlement than a neutral third party arbiter, either hired by both sides, or a federal court will create a legally binding, final deal that both sides are legally required to implement. This will be designed to cause the least pain to all parties involved.

In this Greece case you have no neutral third party to create and mandate a fair, final compromise that conclusively resolves the issue. You have politicians not third party lawyers, fighting and no neutral third party to resolve the issue taking both sides interests into account, who can then force both sides to actually implement the decision.

Even worse, it's impossible to make use of monetary policy to combat recessions. The US can get over this by having a unified fiscal policy, meaning if one state gets into economic trouble, the other's can subsidise it.

I would say the lack of dispute resolution mechanisms is worse, monetary policy is only effective in certain cases, the effectiveness of monetary policy has been grossly exaggerated in Europe. In the U.S. we do have a united monetary policy that helps, but we never view it is a sole, or usually even a primary source of action.

[Camelza]

Apparently it's not enough.
:/

Objectively, Greece isn't very productive when you compare it with countries like Germany, France, The Netherlands and Norway. But people are extremely exaggerating when they say that Greeks are lazy.

Well, yes, but I don't think anyone in here is actually suggesting that ..I want to think.
The problem is that Greece's productivity has to increase in order to get out of recession(along with a large number of other measures), this can happen by lowering taxation and bureucracy, as well as increasing the buying power of Greeks - or at least set a course towards exporting products.
Eliminating part-time and illegal employment would be quite beneficial as well.

[Calimera II]

Objectively, Greece isn't very productive when you compare it with countries like Germany, France, The Netherlands and Norway. But people are extremely exaggerating when they say that Greeks are lazy.

Well, yes, but I don't think anyone in here is actually suggesting that ..I want to think.
The problem is that Greece's productivity has to increase in order to get out of recession(along with a large number of other measures), this can happen by lowering taxation and bureucracy, as well as increasing the buying power of Greeks - or at least set a course towards exporting products.
Eliminating part-time and illegal employment would be quite beneficial as well.

If Greece wants to remain in the Eurozone and wants to increase GDP, it should focus on Consumption. Greece should have never entered the eurozone..