Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Camelza]

You just linked one of Junger's speeches, why should I believe what he has to say?

Non-erratic behavior is a good indicator. Mind you, this is a thing where it's largely his word against Tsipras, but given the latters behavior, Tsipras being the liar is the more reasonable conclusion.

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

Here's the actual proposal:
http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2015/0 ... 0%2000.pdf
It practically fucks up farmers and islanders and raises the VAT. It doesn't even describe how to curb on tax avopidance, just that "it should be done".
This is no reasonable proposal, or even helpful, it just proposes further austerity.

You haven't read it, have you? The "raises the VAT" is a complete lie, for instance. In fact, it actually reduces it for things the Greeks were complaining about would be harmed (specifically hotels and tourism).

introduce reform of the income tax code, inter alia covering capital taxation, investment vehicles, farmers and the self employed, etc.
"The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will includerestaurants and catering"
"The increase of the VAT rate described above maybe reviewed at the end of 2016, provided that equivalent additional revenues are collected through measures taken against tax evasion and to improve collectability of VAT. Any decision to review and revise shall take place in consultation with the institutions."
What part of "islands will no longer be excempt" you don't understand? The Islands are the greatest tourist destination, tourists don't want to gaze the Pindus mountains. And yes VAT will be raised in certain parts, did you read it?

And here's Tsipras' proposal:
http://www.zougla.gr/politiki/article/i ... us-8esmous
scroll down, it's in English.

It's a table of contents...

So, let me get this straight: When I asked you to show that Dijsselbloem always went back to the previous idea, you meant the extremely generous offer that drastically reduced the amount of savings necessary, suggested cutting military expenditure and taxing the rish shipyard owners rather than going after pensioners, and included a massive investment package to spur growth? All of which was rejected by Tsipras?

Regarding the pensioners:
"The Authorities recognise that the pension system is unsustainable and needs fundamental reforms. This is why they will implement in full the 2010 pension reform law (3863/2010), and implement in full or replace/adjust the sustainability factors for supplementary and lump sum pensions from the 2012 reform to achieve equivalent savings and take further steps to improve the pension system. "
You know what the 2010 and 2012 pension reform laws are suggesting? It's downright a curbing of social welfare.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/pm/jou ... 1037a.html

You just include the positive parts of the proposal and ignored that the already bleeding farming sector would be butchered if this proposal is actually accepted, Islanders who are already amongst the most poor of Greeks would have even more burdens and the welfare sytem, despite what you claim, would actually face reductions according to this proposal.

We don't need more austerity, we need less.

Plus, it seems you think we only care about hotels, when tourism is providing only 12% of the GDP. The rest 88% comes from sectors that this proposal would hurt, companies don't need a raise in taxation, neither a direct one, nor one in their products and the vast majority of farmers have it pretty bad as it is.

[Borusenfront]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

[Laerod]

Non-erratic behavior is a good indicator. Mind you, this is a thing where it's largely his word against Tsipras, but given the latters behavior, Tsipras being the liar is the more reasonable conclusion.

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

Good thing I'm not.

You haven't read it, have you? The "raises the VAT" is a complete lie, for instance. In fact, it actually reduces it for things the Greeks were complaining about would be harmed (specifically hotels and tourism).

introduce reform of the income tax code, inter alia covering capital taxation, investment vehicles, farmers and the self employed, etc.
"The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will includerestaurants and catering"
"The increase of the VAT rate described above maybe reviewed at the end of 2016, provided that equivalent additional revenues are collected through measures taken against tax evasion and to improve collectability of VAT. Any decision to review and revise shall take place in consultation with the institutions."
What part of "islands will no longer be excempt" you don't understand? The Islands are the greatest tourist destination, tourists don't want to gaze the Pindus mountains. And yes VAT will be raised in certain parts, did you read it?

So what you're saying is it's outrageous but only when it comes from the Troika? There's like a two percentage difference in the 13% vs. 11% bracket in Tsipras suggestion, which would not constitute a raising of the rate seeing as it's already at 13%. In fact the 6% rate is an actual reduction from what it apparently currently is.

You're bitching about measures that are pretty much the same as Tsipras allegedly proposed.

It's a table of contents...

So, let me get this straight: When I asked you to show that Dijsselbloem always went back to the previous idea, you meant the extremely generous offer that drastically reduced the amount of savings necessary, suggested cutting military expenditure and taxing the rish shipyard owners rather than going after pensioners, and included a massive investment package to spur growth? All of which was rejected by Tsipras?

Regarding the pensioners:
"The Authorities recognise that the pension system is unsustainable and needs fundamental reforms. This is why they will implement in full the 2010 pension reform law (3863/2010), and implement in full or replace/adjust the sustainability factors for supplementary and lump sum pensions from the 2012 reform to achieve equivalent savings and take further steps to improve the pension system. "
You know what the 2010 and 2012 pension reform laws are suggesting? It's downright a curbing of social welfare.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/pm/jou ... 1037a.html

You just include the positive parts of the proposal and ignored that the already bleeding farming sector would be butchered if this proposal is actually accepted, Islanders who are already amongst the most poor of Greeks would have even more burdens and the welfare sytem, despite what you claim, would actually face reductions according to this proposal.

We don't need more austerity, we need less.

Right, and you haven't been cherrypicking? You're getting less austerity and an investment package. You're not getting no austerity because you cannot fucking afford to maintain one of the most bloated pension systems in all of Europe. The idea that Germany should finance an increase of retirement age to 67 by the late 2030s for Greece as Tsipras proposes when our own is to be accomplished by the 2020s is a fucking joke. And that's Germany. Don't even start with the countries that have it even worse than that that Greece is blatantly attempting to bamboozle into funding Tsipras' utopian election promises.

[Natapoc]

NSG what is your opinion on the referendum

My opinion is that it is a piss-poor move by the Tsipras cabinet, who are
a) escaping their responsibility as executive, and
b) trying to take more time so to force the BCE to fund them again to avoid the default of an EZ country

I also think Tsipras is using the "okhi" myth (which, ironically, goes back to the fascistoid Metaxas regime and the Italian invasion of 1940) to rally consensus.

and what do you think is gonna happen if we greeks vote no on the bailout deal?

Greece will have to default. Which means likely leaving the EZ and creating a new currency, which will lose about 2/3 of its initial value within one year. The bordering EU countries will face a large influx of Greek immigrants fleeing from poverty (the first targets will be, of course, Bulgaria and Italy). Corporations from all over the world will buy the most appetible bits of Greece at bargain prices, and Greece will be forced to sell territory for a Russian military base.

On the contrary, Tsipras is doing the right thing here.

A decision that could result in departure from the euro is something that the whole country should be part of. It would have been arrogant for Tsipras to make the decision alone.

I'm glad that some semblance of democracy is still alive in the country that invented it.

[Laerod]

My opinion is that it is a piss-poor move by the Tsipras cabinet, who are
a) escaping their responsibility as executive, and
b) trying to take more time so to force the BCE to fund them again to avoid the default of an EZ country

I also think Tsipras is using the "okhi" myth (which, ironically, goes back to the fascistoid Metaxas regime and the Italian invasion of 1940) to rally consensus.


Greece will have to default. Which means likely leaving the EZ and creating a new currency, which will lose about 2/3 of its initial value within one year. The bordering EU countries will face a large influx of Greek immigrants fleeing from poverty (the first targets will be, of course, Bulgaria and Italy). Corporations from all over the world will buy the most appetible bits of Greece at bargain prices, and Greece will be forced to sell territory for a Russian military base.

On the contrary, Tsipras is doing the right thing here.

A decision that could result in departure from the euro is something that the whole country should be part of. It would have been arrogant for Tsipras to make the decision alone.

I'm glad that some semblance of democracy is still alive in the country that invented it.

There's a time and a place for referendums on things and it's called "long before the deadlines".

[Camelza]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

I think this is more proper and official, but it still doesn't confirm anything.
http://www.dailysabah.com/money/2015/06 ... -to-greece

It's a nice move though.

[Novus America]

Non-erratic behavior is a good indicator. Mind you, this is a thing where it's largely his word against Tsipras, but given the latters behavior, Tsipras being the liar is the more reasonable conclusion.

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

You haven't read it, have you? The "raises the VAT" is a complete lie, for instance. In fact, it actually reduces it for things the Greeks were complaining about would be harmed (specifically hotels and tourism).

introduce reform of the income tax code, inter alia covering capital taxation, investment vehicles, farmers and the self employed, etc.
"The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will includerestaurants and catering"
"The increase of the VAT rate described above maybe reviewed at the end of 2016, provided that equivalent additional revenues are collected through measures taken against tax evasion and to improve collectability of VAT. Any decision to review and revise shall take place in consultation with the institutions."
What part of "islands will no longer be excempt" you don't understand? The Islands are the greatest tourist destination, tourists don't want to gaze the Pindus mountains. And yes VAT will be raised in certain parts, did you read it?

It's a table of contents...

So, let me get this straight: When I asked you to show that Dijsselbloem always went back to the previous idea, you meant the extremely generous offer that drastically reduced the amount of savings necessary, suggested cutting military expenditure and taxing the rish shipyard owners rather than going after pensioners, and included a massive investment package to spur growth? All of which was rejected by Tsipras?

Regarding the pensioners:
"The Authorities recognise that the pension system is unsustainable and needs fundamental reforms. This is why they will implement in full the 2010 pension reform law (3863/2010), and implement in full or replace/adjust the sustainability factors for supplementary and lump sum pensions from the 2012 reform to achieve equivalent savings and take further steps to improve the pension system. "
You know what the 2010 and 2012 pension reform laws are suggesting? It's downright a curbing of social welfare.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/pm/jou ... 1037a.html

You just include the positive parts of the proposal and ignored that the already bleeding farming sector would be butchered if this proposal is actually accepted, Islanders who are already amongst the most poor of Greeks would have even more burdens and the welfare sytem, despite what you claim, would actually face reductions according to this proposal.

We don't need more austerity, we need less.

Plus, it seems you think we only care about hotels, when tourism is providing only 12% of the GDP. The rest 88% comes from sectors that this proposal would hurt, companies don't need a raise in taxation, neither a direct one, nor one in their products and the vast majority of farmers have it pretty bad as it is.

You do not have a choice.
If you leave it only gets worse.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33324363
If you stay it is going to be bad. If you leave it will certainly get worse at least for some time. It could theoretically work in the long run but the risk is massive. And the road is long and hard either way. You are simply in denial, things are not going to be good for Greece any time soon, spending cuts and or revenue increases are inevitable.

Are the EU proposals all good? Of course not, the EU is not some united or competent entity. They are fumbling around. Greece has to make a though choice. Stay or go. No more of this indecision.

The Greek government has said the EU proposals are horrible but also that they do NOT want to leave the EU. Tsipras is neither brave enough to accept the EU proposal nor brave enough to call for an exit. The longer Greece wait to make a choice the worse things get.

Greece, time is up.
Make you choice. Stop kicking the can down the road, man up, and make a plan.

The biggest problem is Greece has no plan other than scream and hope for a miracle. Hope is not a strategy.

[New Luckyland]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

Sadly this is the opposition speaking, so more of a supportive gesture than real help. It might even make it more difficult for the Turkish government to offer real aid.

[Benian Republic]

One of my pals told me the Greeks haven't paid their army in a month, is that true?

[Novus America]

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

Good thing I'm not.

introduce reform of the income tax code, inter alia covering capital taxation, investment vehicles, farmers and the self employed, etc.
"The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will includerestaurants and catering"
"The increase of the VAT rate described above maybe reviewed at the end of 2016, provided that equivalent additional revenues are collected through measures taken against tax evasion and to improve collectability of VAT. Any decision to review and revise shall take place in consultation with the institutions."
What part of "islands will no longer be excempt" you don't understand? The Islands are the greatest tourist destination, tourists don't want to gaze the Pindus mountains. And yes VAT will be raised in certain parts, did you read it?

So what you're saying is it's outrageous but only when it comes from the Troika? There's like a two percentage difference in the 13% vs. 11% bracket in Tsipras suggestion, which would not constitute a raising of the rate seeing as it's already at 13%. In fact the 6% rate is an actual reduction from what it apparently currently is.

You're bitching about measures that are pretty much the same as Tsipras allegedly proposed.

Regarding the pensioners:
"The Authorities recognise that the pension system is unsustainable and needs fundamental reforms. This is why they will implement in full the 2010 pension reform law (3863/2010), and implement in full or replace/adjust the sustainability factors for supplementary and lump sum pensions from the 2012 reform to achieve equivalent savings and take further steps to improve the pension system. "
You know what the 2010 and 2012 pension reform laws are suggesting? It's downright a curbing of social welfare.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/pm/jou ... 1037a.html

You just include the positive parts of the proposal and ignored that the already bleeding farming sector would be butchered if this proposal is actually accepted, Islanders who are already amongst the most poor of Greeks would have even more burdens and the welfare sytem, despite what you claim, would actually face reductions according to this proposal.

We don't need more austerity, we need less.

Right, and you haven't been cherrypicking? You're getting less austerity and an investment package. You're not getting no austerity because you cannot fucking afford to maintain one of the most bloated pension systems in all of Europe. The idea that Germany should finance an increase of retirement age to 67 by the late 2030s for Greece as Tsipras proposes when our own is to be accomplished by the 2020s is a fucking joke. And that's Germany. Don't even start with the countries that have it even worse than that that Greece is blatantly attempting to bamboozle into funding Tsipras' utopian election promises.

Herein lies the problem. Tsipras promised to end austerity and stay in the EU. He might as well have promised pigs will fly on a cold day in hell. His entire platform was impossible. Yet he refuses to admit the truth, so he keeps play these stupid games, only delaying the inevitable, and each day he does making things worse not just for the Greeks but all of Europe. Like others said, literally EVERY government in the EU has turned against him. Getting the EU to agree on anything is quite an accomplishment though. Even if it is getting them to agree on despising you.

[Camelza]

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

Good thing I'm not.

Oh, an austerity supporter, nevermind that then.

introduce reform of the income tax code, inter alia covering capital taxation, investment vehicles, farmers and the self employed, etc.
"The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will includerestaurants and catering"
"The increase of the VAT rate described above maybe reviewed at the end of 2016, provided that equivalent additional revenues are collected through measures taken against tax evasion and to improve collectability of VAT. Any decision to review and revise shall take place in consultation with the institutions."
What part of "islands will no longer be excempt" you don't understand? The Islands are the greatest tourist destination, tourists don't want to gaze the Pindus mountains. And yes VAT will be raised in certain parts, did you read it?

So what you're saying is it's outrageous but only when it comes from the Troika? There's like a two percentage difference in the 13% vs. 11% bracket in Tsipras suggestion, which would not constitute a raising of the rate seeing as it's already at 13%. In fact the 6% rate is an actual reduction from what it apparently currently is.

You're bitching about measures that are pretty much the same as Tsipras allegedly proposed.

They're not pretty much the same; the Islands' taxation is a big deal, so is 2% and the implementation of a completely unfair pension reform law.
Tsipras' proposals were not really good, neither very specific, that's true, but at least they weren't such catastrophic and idiotic proposals.

Regarding the pensioners:
"The Authorities recognise that the pension system is unsustainable and needs fundamental reforms. This is why they will implement in full the 2010 pension reform law (3863/2010), and implement in full or replace/adjust the sustainability factors for supplementary and lump sum pensions from the 2012 reform to achieve equivalent savings and take further steps to improve the pension system. "
You know what the 2010 and 2012 pension reform laws are suggesting? It's downright a curbing of social welfare.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/pm/jou ... 1037a.html

You just include the positive parts of the proposal and ignored that the already bleeding farming sector would be butchered if this proposal is actually accepted, Islanders who are already amongst the most poor of Greeks would have even more burdens and the welfare sytem, despite what you claim, would actually face reductions according to this proposal.

We don't need more austerity, we need less.

Right, and you haven't been cherrypicking? You're getting less austerity and an investment package. You're not getting no austerity because you cannot fucking afford to maintain one of the most bloated pension systems in all of Europe. The idea that Germany should finance an increase of retirement age to 67 by the late 2030s for Greece as Tsipras proposes when our own is to be accomplished by the 2020s is a fucking joke. And that's Germany. Don't even start with the countries that have it even worse than that that Greece is blatantly attempting to bamboozle into funding Tsipras' utopian election promises.

We're not getting less austerity, we're getting more. Also, I'm glad to see that you finally agree that the pension system would be hurt, because a moment ago you refused that this was not the case at all. Nevertheless, there are more ways to sustain welfare other than curbing it. -> Not to mention that pensioners have actually paid for their pensions by working and getting "security stamps" from their employers, no one has the right to harass their pensions.

[Pollona]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

It appears to only be a suggestion by the opposition Republican People's Party. Which is not even in government. It's a nice gesture but one without any real effect unless they get into government with the AKP.

[Teemant]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

It appears to only be a suggestion by the opposition Republican People's Party. Which is not even in government. It's a nice gesture but one without any real effect unless they get into government with the AKP.

Just popularity trick. I doubt they would if they had the ability.

[Camelza]

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

introduce reform of the income tax code, inter alia covering capital taxation, investment vehicles, farmers and the self employed, etc.
"The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will includerestaurants and catering"
"The increase of the VAT rate described above maybe reviewed at the end of 2016, provided that equivalent additional revenues are collected through measures taken against tax evasion and to improve collectability of VAT. Any decision to review and revise shall take place in consultation with the institutions."
What part of "islands will no longer be excempt" you don't understand? The Islands are the greatest tourist destination, tourists don't want to gaze the Pindus mountains. And yes VAT will be raised in certain parts, did you read it?

Regarding the pensioners:
"The Authorities recognise that the pension system is unsustainable and needs fundamental reforms. This is why they will implement in full the 2010 pension reform law (3863/2010), and implement in full or replace/adjust the sustainability factors for supplementary and lump sum pensions from the 2012 reform to achieve equivalent savings and take further steps to improve the pension system. "
You know what the 2010 and 2012 pension reform laws are suggesting? It's downright a curbing of social welfare.
http://www.palgrave-journals.com/pm/jou ... 1037a.html

You just include the positive parts of the proposal and ignored that the already bleeding farming sector would be butchered if this proposal is actually accepted, Islanders who are already amongst the most poor of Greeks would have even more burdens and the welfare sytem, despite what you claim, would actually face reductions according to this proposal.

We don't need more austerity, we need less.

Plus, it seems you think we only care about hotels, when tourism is providing only 12% of the GDP. The rest 88% comes from sectors that this proposal would hurt, companies don't need a raise in taxation, neither a direct one, nor one in their products and the vast majority of farmers have it pretty bad as it is.

You do not have a choice.
If you leave it only gets worse.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33324363
If you stay it is going to be bad. If you leave it will certainly get worse at least for some time. It could theoretically work in the long run but the risk is massive. And the road is long and hard either way. You are simply in denial, things are not going to be good for Greece any time soon, spending cuts and or revenue increases are inevitable.

Are the EU proposals all good? Of course not, the EU is not some united or competent entity. They are fumbling around. Greece has to make a though choice. Stay or go. No more of this indecision.

The Greek government has said the EU proposals are horrible but also that they do NOT want to leave the EU. Tsipras is neither brave enough to accept the EU proposal nor brave enough to call for an exit. The longer Greece wait to make a choice the worse things get.

Greece, time is up.
Make you choice. Stop kicking the can down the road, man up, and make a plan.

The biggest problem is Greece has no plan other than scream and hope for a miracle. Hope is not a strategy.

I'm not Greece.
Regarding the afforementioned choice, that's what the referendum will lead to if the "No" option wins, and it will, what happens next is unknown to everyone.

[Camelza]

It appears to only be a suggestion by the opposition Republican People's Party. Which is not even in government. It's a nice gesture but one without any real effect unless they get into government with the AKP.

Just popularity trick. I doubt they would if they had the ability.

True, but this guy is more serious about it, since he clearly won't just hand out free money;
http://www.dailysabah.com/money/2015/06 ... -to-greece

Nevertheless, all these are just assumptions, Turkey could help and it could benefit from helping, but nothing is certain.

[Novus America]

You do not have a choice.
If you leave it only gets worse.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33324363
If you stay it is going to be bad. If you leave it will certainly get worse at least for some time. It could theoretically work in the long run but the risk is massive. And the road is long and hard either way. You are simply in denial, things are not going to be good for Greece any time soon, spending cuts and or revenue increases are inevitable.

Are the EU proposals all good? Of course not, the EU is not some united or competent entity. They are fumbling around. Greece has to make a though choice. Stay or go. No more of this indecision.

The Greek government has said the EU proposals are horrible but also that they do NOT want to leave the EU. Tsipras is neither brave enough to accept the EU proposal nor brave enough to call for an exit. The longer Greece wait to make a choice the worse things get.

Greece, time is up.
Make you choice. Stop kicking the can down the road, man up, and make a plan.

The biggest problem is Greece has no plan other than scream and hope for a miracle. Hope is not a strategy.

I'm not Greece.
Regarding the afforementioned choice, that's what the referendum will lead to if the "No" option wins, and it will, what happens next is unknown to everyone.

As you said what happens after a No, nobody knows. That is not a plan... Charging off into a dangerous unknown with no idea what you are going to do if you get there is not a strategy. Again making a lot of noise and hoping for a Deus Ex Machina miracle is not going to work. That is what this referendum is. What is Tsipras's plan after a no?!

Greece needs a plan.

Even China has turned on Tsipras comparing him to the mythological character Phaeton.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33322911

[Teemant]

I'm not Greece.
Regarding the afforementioned choice, that's what the referendum will lead to if the "No" option wins, and it will, what happens next is unknown to everyone.

As you said what happens after a No, nobody knows. That is not a plan... Charging off into a dangerous unknown with no idea what you are going to do if you get there is not a strategy. Again making a lot of noise and hoping for a Deus Ex Machina miracle is not going to work. That is what this referendum is. What is Tsipras's plan after a no?!

Greece needs a plan.

Even China has turned on Tsipras comparing him to the mythological character Phaeton.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33322911

Russia said today that Greece is not their problem and they should solve this together with creditors (Eurogroup). Greece will be alone (isolated), without money and no plan. It seems that this last 5 month gamble paid off...

[Greed and Death]

For those thinking Greece just needs another Loan, I have a challenge for you. Put your money where your mouth is and take your retirement savings and buy Greek Bonds.

[Minoa]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

It was a suggestion: I am unsure about the fate of that idea.

Tsipras appears to be still open for negotiation, provided that the Eurogroup caves in to their demands: https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/615891251938746369

However, it appears that a technical default is imminent at 2300 BST (2200 GMT).

[Pollona]

Quite rationally, the Eurozone leaders pointed out that this crisis in Greece is self-inflicted.

That's wrong. The Greece crisis is the mostly the product of Troika austerity plans, which turned a small problem (debt at 120%, not worse than Japan or USA) into a massive disaster and economical collapse, and the product of punitive interest rates. And also the consequence of transferring private debt into public debt, which is indeed a decision of the Greek government, but not of the Greek people, and not legal under international law. The only ones who should pay for consequences are the Greek government of that time, not the Greek people.

"The only ones who should pay for consequences are the Greek government of that time, not the Greek people. . ." Is a nonsensical farce. Who elected those governments? Satan? Merkel's shadowy henchmen? Oh right, the Greek people elected those governments. Past Greek governments chose to not balance their budgets and instead kick the can down the road. When you decide to spend money you don't have today, you have to make spending cuts or tax increases in the future to pay off debt that accrued interest. Well sorry, the future is now, debts had to be repaid. The Greek people are suffering because their past politicians made stupid decisions, and now Greeks are bearing the full burden.

Austerity of some sort was inevitable, whether at the behest of a Troika or by the Greek government.

Please don't tell me you are seriously comparing Greece to Japan or the United States. If you are I will make one simple observation. Japan and the US have their own independent monetary policy, while Greece does not. Seems like lying to join the Euro was a bad idea after all.

After years of rampant overspending and cheap debt, Greece found itself in near bankruptcy.

That's not at all how it happened. There hasn't be "years of rampant overspending", in fact Greece government spending was below the average of eurozone. And there was no "cheap debt", the interest rates asked by private markets to Greece way already very high.

In 1980 Greek Debt:GDP totaled just above 20%, right before the crisis it was 120%. Your government's budget has not been balanced since at least 1995, and probably for much longer. Between the adoption of the Euro alone and the height of the bond crisis, Greek government spending increased 129%. Your debt increased by the size of Denmark's economy. That's simply insanity.

The only thing holding back Greek budgets before the Euro was that interest rates on Greek debt were stubbornly high. Once in the Euro, Greece could borrow at the same rate as Germany.

In exchange for a debt writeoff they had to agree to certain conditions.

Wrong. It's not a "debt writeoff". It's a loan _with interests_ in order to pay back a previous loan. In an infernal loop with no end, everytime Greece must repay part of its debt, they get a new loan with interest and conditions to pay back that chunk, without any long-term solution in sight, each austerity plan shrinking their economy and increasing the problem - thanks to the Troika, the debt went from 120% to 170% of Greece GDP.

It was. European countries and the ECB essentially "bought" Greek debt from private creditors to whom Greece owed money. The creditors got their money in exchange for a "haircut" (or writeoff) of the money they were owed. In return for the Eurozone rescuing Greece they had to agree to a certain number of conditions, mainly, tax and spending adjustments.

The Rescue packages essentially transferred the ownership of Greek debt from private creditors to Eurozone institutions. That's not illegal, especially if they bought it off the secondary market, it just means Greece has a different person to pay back.

Austerity is not some sort of malicious design by Eurozone sadists

No, it's a very selfish way for Germany, France, ... to make the Greek workers work for them, taking billions of interest from the asphyxiating Greek people. In the last 4 years, while Greek people have thrown into an humanitarian crisis, Greece paid 800 millions of interests to France. And even more to Germany, IMF, ECB, ... It's an organized plunder, nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry? Germany, France, etc. did not have to bailout Greece. They used their own taxpayer's money to rescue Greece from floundering under the weight of its own stupidity. Greece did not have to accept the bailout, but they did. Eurozone countries demanded some sort of guarantee that European countries would not be throwing money down a hole. Otherwise, they would have hell to pay from their own voters. Why should taxpayers in Germany or France subsidize the recklessness of Greece?

Greece is borrowing the north's credit card, and yet simultaneously blaming them for the problem?

Tsipras wanted a renegotiation, and the Eurozone leaders offered him one.

No, they didn't. They stubbornly continued their injuction, the exact same one the Greek voters rejected, because the Troika has a complete disregard to either democracy or people's well-being.

Again, Tsipras was elected on a platform to renegotiate the 2012 bailout conditions. If you intend on renegotiating then you have to have a set of alternatives that still produce similar results. Namely, the ability for Greece to pay off her debts.

The fact that he danced around the issue and blamed the Eurozone for the bailout was bound to NOT endear him to European leaders. Anyone could have told him that. It's not the job of the Troika or the EU to care about democracy or this illusory "people's well being," their job is to make sure Greece is financially solvent. That's the point about the austerity packages. Greek politicians couldn't fix the mess they were in, so apparently someone else has to.

Yet, he found himself up against the wall. Instead of cutting his losses and admitting a defeat, he tried punting to voters to deflect blame.

He has no mandate to accept a "defeat". That's not what he was elected for. That's basic honesty and respect for electors to not betray what you were elected for. Something eurozone leaders, to which democracy is an alien idea, have trouble grasping. But a government elected to do one policy, and then doing the opposite one, is a betrayal. Tsipras refused to betray. So he asked the Greek people what they want. That's a fully admirable position, the only one compatible with both democracy and ethics. I wish Hollande had the decency to do a referendum before doing the opposite of what he was elected to do...

On the one hand you are right, he wasn't elected to betray the principles which people elected him into office. But grownups in government have to make tough decisions. He could have taken the offer put on the table, but he wouldn't because he would be massacred in the polls. If he didn't take the offer, there would be no renegotiation of the bailout, also undesirable. I distinctly remember Papandreou trying to do the same thing (a referendum then would have been far more useful), and Tsipras criticizing him for it. It appears as though the boot is on the other foot.

All that is left is to decide whether to stay in the Eurozone or leave.

There is no legal way to push Greece out of the eurozone. Even if the No wins, Greece will stay in the eurozone. Attempts to kick it out are totally illegal.

If the "no" vote wins, Greece will not be able to repay institutions like the IMF, or more importantly the ECB latter this month. Once Greece is "in arrears" with the ECB, the Bank has no (legal) choice but to pull the plug on it's financial support package to Greek banks. After that, greek banks will have no more money. The only way they could recapitalize is for the government to reintroduce the Drachma. It's a downhill slide of unintended consequences.

You cast a sovereign default in such an easy light.

Because it is something relatively easy, that countries do again and again.

Yes, with a sovereign default Greece will join the likes of Myanmar, Paraguay, Venezuela, Argentina, Zimbabwe, and Angola. All of which defaulted at some point in the new millennium. That's a fine club of economies right there.

On the other hand most developed countries try to avoid defaulting, generally to avoid an economic calamity. And, furthermore, to avoid laughably high long term interest rates. Pretty soon 20% per annum will look like a "good deal" for Greece.

If you think the Greek economy couldn't get any worse then there is a whole new round of pain to come if Greece defaults.

A sudden, complete default will be very painful. Not only to Greece, but also to the rest of the eurozone, which is why a sane compromise, a controlled default, should be reached. But for Greece, even the default will be painful, it'll, on the long term, be much less painful than an eternal cycle of austerity and debt repayment.

Agreed, an orderly controlled default would be the best option if Greece were to default. As for whether it is better than further austerity, who can say?

At this point, Greece is certain to default to the IMF.

Being a few days late in a minor payment isn't really a "default".

True, it would technically be "in arrears," but after a set period it will become a default. No major developed country has ever defaulted to the IMF, ever. Generally when one defaults to the lender of last resort for the world, investors don't like it.

[Slobozhanshchyna]

I've been hearing accusations of Greeks having a short working day and whining about it. And the constant expansion of the government by cronies who are given positions by governmental figures at all levels. How true is it?

I'd like a Greek to answer this.

[Camelza]

It is confirmed. Turkey will pay the rate of 1,6 billions for Greece.
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/201 ... ion-deputy

It was a suggestion: I am unsure about the fate of that idea.

Tsipras appears to be still open for negotiation, provided that the Eurogroup caves in to their demands: https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/615891251938746369

However, it appears that a technical default is imminent at 2300 BST (2200 GMT).

Oh well...
I better start planning my immigration to the US.

[Camelza]

I've been hearing accusations of Greeks having a short working day and whining about it. And the constant expansion of the government by cronies who are given positions by governmental figures at all levels. How true is it?

I'd like a Greek to answer this.

The red part is absolutely false.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -desk.html

The orange part was partially true up until the last ND government ..if Samaras' government did something good that was that they didn't do that.

[Filimons]

It was a suggestion: I am unsure about the fate of that idea.

Tsipras appears to be still open for negotiation, provided that the Eurogroup caves in to their demands: https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/615891251938746369

However, it appears that a technical default is imminent at 2300 BST (2200 GMT).

Oh well...
I better start planning my immigration to the US.

You have EU citizenship . . .

[Geilinor]

Non-erratic behavior is a good indicator. Mind you, this is a thing where it's largely his word against Tsipras, but given the latters behavior, Tsipras being the liar is the more reasonable conclusion.

I wouldn't call the failure of neoliberal austerity that was supported by him and a large number of other EU officials and his refusal to accept said failure to be non-erratic behaviour.

It's non-erratic behavior because Juncker has been very consistent in his position.