Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Laerod]

Has it though? I mean, Syriza has shown its willingness to agree to terms with the Troika. Or not. Or yes. Or not. What?

*To agree to reasonable terms.

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

[Camelza]

*To agree to reasonable terms.

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

It's not the Greek government's fault that every time they were ready to reach an agreement mr Daiselbloom resorted back to the initial proposal of the Trojka. You can't reach an agreement with only one party trying to reach the other.

[Laerod]

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

It's not the Greek government's fault that every time they were ready to reach an agreement mr Daiselbloom resorted back to the initial proposal of the Trojka. You can't reach an agreement with only one party trying to reach the other.

Sounds like a lie. Can you show that this is not a lie? At the moment it contradicts everything I've linked that shows the exact opposite and I'm therefore utterly disinclined to believe it.

[Chestaan]

To be fair, if I was in charge of Greece I would take money from Satan himself if it meant the people would have a better life.

Doesn't this attitude trivialise the fact that other countries in New Europe have living standards, social coverage, disposable incomes, and corrupt governments worse than Greece has it, even today?

To an extent perhaps, but my main point is that it would be very hard to be picky about where you get your money from if you already have none.

[Teemant]

Doesn't this attitude trivialise the fact that other countries in New Europe have living standards, social coverage, disposable incomes, and corrupt governments worse than Greece has it, even today?

To an extent perhaps, but my main point is that it would be very hard to be picky about where you get your money from if you already have none.

They have money but not enough for lifestyle they want.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

*To agree to reasonable terms.

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

Greece seems to have a different opinion than the Troika on what terms are reasonable. Demanding Germany pays war reparations for example. Totally reasonable according to the Greek government.

[Risottia]

*To agree to reasonable terms.

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

And then wait, make another last-minute proposal hoping it will be accepted thus voiding the referendum they indicted two days ago.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886

[Laerod]

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

Greece seems to have a different opinion than the Troika on what terms are reasonable. Demanding Germany pays war reparations for example. Totally reasonable according to the Greek government.

What opinion is that? Because it currently says that no terms are acceptable. Or wait, Tsipras set out new terms a few minutes ago? I should read up on those. Then again, why the fuck should I trust Tsipras anymore regarding anything he says when it's so much more plausible that the fucker was only stalling for time?

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

Greece seems to have a different opinion than the Troika on what terms are reasonable. Demanding Germany pays war reparations for example. Totally reasonable according to the Greek government.

What opinion is that? Because it currently says that no terms are acceptable. Or wait, Tsipras set out new terms a few minutes ago? I should read up on those. Then again, why the fuck should I trust Tsipras anymore regarding anything he says when it's so much more plausible that the fucker was only stalling for time?

No, that's not true. Germany paying war reparations is acceptable.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31849430

[Camelza]

It's not the Greek government's fault that every time they were ready to reach an agreement mr Daiselbloom resorted back to the initial proposal of the Trojka. You can't reach an agreement with only one party trying to reach the other.

Sounds like a lie. Can you show that this is not a lie? At the moment it contradicts everything I've linked that shows the exact opposite and I'm therefore utterly disinclined to believe it.

You just linked one of Junger's speeches, why should I believe what he has to say?
Here's the actual proposal:
http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2015/0 ... 0%2000.pdf
It practically fucks up farmers and islanders and raises the VAT. It doesn't even describe how to curb on tax avopidance, just that "it should be done".
This is no reasonable proposal, or even helpful, it just proposes further austerity.

And here's Tsipras' proposal:
http://www.zougla.gr/politiki/article/i ... us-8esmous
scroll down, it's in English.

[Teemant]

Sounds like a lie. Can you show that this is not a lie? At the moment it contradicts everything I've linked that shows the exact opposite and I'm therefore utterly disinclined to believe it.

You just linked one of Junger's speeches, why should I believe what he has to say?
Here's the actual proposal:
http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2015/0 ... 0%2000.pdf
It practically fucks up farmers and islanders and raises the VAT. It doesn't even describe how to curb on tax avopidance, just that "it should be done".
This is no reasonable proposal, or even helpful, it just proposes further austerity.

Tax evasion is something that Greece could and should tackle on its own. But there is no political will to do so because it would destroy the popularity of the political party who does that.

[Arkolon]

Yeah, that to. And then not. And then yes, no, vote against.

And then wait, make another last-minute proposal hoping it will be accepted thus voiding the referendum they indicted two days ago.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886

Literally about to post this. But yeah, wow.

[Camelza]

You just linked one of Junger's speeches, why should I believe what he has to say?
Here's the actual proposal:
http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2015/0 ... 0%2000.pdf
It practically fucks up farmers and islanders and raises the VAT. It doesn't even describe how to curb on tax avopidance, just that "it should be done".
This is no reasonable proposal, or even helpful, it just proposes further austerity.

Tax evasion is something that Greece could and should tackle on its own. But there is no political will to do so because it would destroy the popularity of the political party who does that.

You mean New Democracy and Pasok? Syriza is a only five months in government, how do you expect a handful of people dealing with the worst economic crisis Greece has faced ever since the 1890s can also deal with one of the oldest unsolved problems of the country? You're asking too much of them.

[Camelza]

And then wait, make another last-minute proposal hoping it will be accepted thus voiding the referendum they indicted two days ago.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886

Literally about to post this. But yeah, wow.

And this new last approach to actually reach an agreement is bad because?

[Risottia]

Syriza is a only five months in government, how do you expect a handful of people dealing with the worst economic crisis Greece has faced ever since the 1890s can also deal with one of the oldest unsolved problems of the country? You're asking too much of them.

No, I'd expect them to be a bit more serious about it. They've been attempting scare-tactics against every single EU institution and EU fellow member which have alienated any kind of support and sympathy they had gathered (see the initial attitude of Hollande and Renzi, just to name two), and have kept banging on the nationalistic drum at home pointing at the evil foreigners as the source of all evils.

[Teemant]

Tax evasion is something that Greece could and should tackle on its own. But there is no political will to do so because it would destroy the popularity of the political party who does that.

You mean New Democracy and Pasok? Syriza is a only five months in government, how do you expect a handful of people dealing with the worst economic crisis Greece has faced ever since the 1890s can also deal with one of the oldest unsolved problems of the country? You're asking too much of them.

It's mostly about political will but as I said it will decrease the popularity of the party who does that. Before elections Syriza promised to deal with tax evasion and they haven't done it. I wouldn't be surprised if many big evaders are in good terms with someone in goverment or in parliament and get away with it. Don't forget - Where there is a will there is a way.
Europe can do nothing to solve their tax evasion from distance.

[Laerod]

What opinion is that? Because it currently says that no terms are acceptable. Or wait, Tsipras set out new terms a few minutes ago? I should read up on those. Then again, why the fuck should I trust Tsipras anymore regarding anything he says when it's so much more plausible that the fucker was only stalling for time?

No, that's not true. Germany paying war reparations is acceptable.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31849430

Did you even bother reading that?

Sounds like a lie. Can you show that this is not a lie? At the moment it contradicts everything I've linked that shows the exact opposite and I'm therefore utterly disinclined to believe it.

You just linked one of Junger's speeches, why should I believe what he has to say?

Non-erratic behavior is a good indicator. Mind you, this is a thing where it's largely his word against Tsipras, but given the latters behavior, Tsipras being the liar is the more reasonable conclusion.

Here's the actual proposal:
http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2015/0 ... 0%2000.pdf
It practically fucks up farmers and islanders and raises the VAT. It doesn't even describe how to curb on tax avopidance, just that "it should be done".
This is no reasonable proposal, or even helpful, it just proposes further austerity.

You haven't read it, have you? The "raises the VAT" is a complete lie, for instance. In fact, it actually reduces it for things the Greeks were complaining about would be harmed (specifically hotels and tourism).

And here's Tsipras' proposal:
http://www.zougla.gr/politiki/article/i ... us-8esmous
scroll down, it's in English.

It's a table of contents...

So, let me get this straight: When I asked you to show that Dijsselbloem always went back to the previous idea, you meant the extremely generous offer that drastically reduced the amount of savings necessary, suggested cutting military expenditure and taxing the rish shipyard owners rather than going after pensioners, and included a massive investment package to spur growth? All of which was rejected by Tsipras?

[Laerod]

Literally about to post this. But yeah, wow.

And this new last approach to actually reach an agreement is bad because?

Timing and the fact that you can't trust Tsipras' word.

[Camelza]

Syriza is a only five months in government, how do you expect a handful of people dealing with the worst economic crisis Greece has faced ever since the 1890s can also deal with one of the oldest unsolved problems of the country? You're asking too much of them.

No, I'd expect them to be a bit more serious about it. They've been attempting scare-tactics against every single EU institution and EU fellow member which have alienated any kind of support and sympathy they had gathered (see the initial attitude of Hollande and Renzi, just to name two), and have kept banging on the nationalistic drum at home pointing at the evil foreigners as the source of all evils.

Define said scare-tactics, because Europe has been using many versions of terrorism against us these last five years ..and not just terrorism, but blatant racism as well, especially during the early days of the crisis.
The initial attitudes of Hollande and Renzi were not correspondant to their actual plans. Furthermore, unlike some of you in this forum the Greek government isn't against nations but the governing political elite of Europe.

[Risottia]

I wouldn't be surprised if many big evaders are in good terms with someone in goverment or in parliament and get away with it.

Speaking from a country with a similar problem about tax evasion: No, at this point you don't need to have direct governmental links. Tax evasion becomes so ingrained in the system that a significant part of the economy and of the society actually runs on tax evasion, and if you tackle that issue with the intensity it takes you'll be having immediate backlashes both as political consensus dropping and as the economy dropping again.
Of course in the long run you can build an economy with LESS tax evasion (ZERO tax evasion is impossible, even in, let's say, Norway), which is way better and worth the effort, but you have to take into account some temporary turmoil.

[Risottia]

Define said scare-tactics,

The mantra of the Tsipras-Varoufakis duo has been "if Greece fails Italy and Spain will follow suit because they are fucked up just as we are, that's why you have to give us money at the conditions we want", which is blatantly false.

the Greek government isn't against nations but the governing political elite of Europe.

The Greek government has been quite evidently taking public stances that are detrimental to other fellow EU members and hence their citizens.

So, really, no love from me to the ruling EPP majority in the EU, but I can't really find the Tsipras cabinet to be exactly spotless.

[DBJ]

Tax evasion is something that Greece could and should tackle on its own. But there is no political will to do so because it would destroy the popularity of the political party who does that.

You mean New Democracy and Pasok? Syriza is a only five months in government, how do you expect a handful of people dealing with the worst economic crisis Greece has faced ever since the 1890s can also deal with one of the oldest unsolved problems of the country? You're asking too much of them.

And in those 5 months they've been an utter disaster, driving greece of the financial cliff in record time.

[Borusenfront]

Turkey is ready to help Greece ending the economic crisis http://www.ekathimerini.com/198722/arti ... mic-crisis

This is an unexpected alliance.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

And here's Tsipras' proposal:
http://www.zougla.gr/politiki/article/i ... us-8esmous
scroll down, it's in English.

It's a table of contents...

So, let me get this straight: When I asked you to show that Dijsselbloem always went back to the previous idea, you meant the extremely generous offer that drastically reduced the amount of savings necessary, suggested cutting military expenditure and taxing the rish shipyard owners rather than going after pensioners, and included a massive investment package to spur growth? All of which was rejected by Tsipras?

The last two images link to Tsipras' draft.
Part one: http://www.zougla.gr/file.ashx?fid=1711585
Part two: http://www.zougla.gr/file.ashx?fid=1711587

[Laerod]

It's a table of contents...

So, let me get this straight: When I asked you to show that Dijsselbloem always went back to the previous idea, you meant the extremely generous offer that drastically reduced the amount of savings necessary, suggested cutting military expenditure and taxing the rish shipyard owners rather than going after pensioners, and included a massive investment package to spur growth? All of which was rejected by Tsipras?

The last two images link to Tsipras' draft.
Part one: http://www.zougla.gr/file.ashx?fid=1711585
Part two: http://www.zougla.gr/file.ashx?fid=1711587

Alright, reading it now. It's already clear that "raising the VAT" is a complete and utter fabrication, though.