Greek Financial Crisis Thread

[Costa Fierro]

Well then you should not have spent the money on the military.

I definitely agree with that. But you know who they buy their weapons from, right ? France and Germany. Oddly, cutting military spending has never been among the demands of the Troika. Yet another proof, if more were required, that the Troika's purpose never was helping Greece, but helping themselves.

Oddly enough, substantial amounts of military equipment were also purchased from the Russians.

[Kilobugya]

So we agree it is Greece's fault. Good on German and French companies to profit from it though.

No, we don't agree it's "Greece's fault". First because the military thing is just a part of the problem, not the whole (nor even the worst) of it. Second because it's the fault of Greek government, not of Greek people. And third because those who profit from the misery of others are definitely more than guilty.

Now with Russia growing crazy we can not afford to have a disarmed Greece, better a military American puppet than a disarmed Greece.

The crazy ones are much more the USA than Russia, and being a US puppet is the worst possible fate. Europe should stop being USA's puppet in its new cold war with Russia, stop imposing sanctions on Russia and supporting the fascists in power in Kiev, and quit NATO. But that's another debate anyway.

[Camelza]

The boulder that has to be removed first is the shitty management, the widespread corruption, and unsustainable benefits and privileges. There's no way Greece can stop the deficit and start fueling growth without that.

What benefits and priviledges exactly? I read your whole post, but this part really sparked my interest. Furthermore, you're refusing any governmental action that would mean better living standards for, and an increase in the economic power of, the people, and you repeat the exact same words the creditiors do; "Such measures can't be sustained economically, that's why we refuse". Yet, when another poster claims that the Trojka refuses the Greek government's proposals for progressive taxation and nationalisation of the banks to sustain such measures, you resort to the old "There's a lot of corrupt management, you'll fail". So, what's your proposal then? More austerity and privatizations? Or trying to cleanse the state from corruption with a ton of restrictions imposed by the Trojka and without even a hint of economic support? What exactly?

I definitely agree with that. But you know who they buy their weapons from, right ? France and Germany. Oddly, cutting military spending has never been among the demands of the Troika. Yet another proof, if more were required, that the Troika's purpose never was helping Greece, but helping themselves.

Oddly enough, substantial amounts of military equipment were also purchased from the Russians.

Some AA missiles and hovercrafts are indeed Russian. Everything else is European and American; to be more specific; Greece is in contract, purchasing mainly Leopard tanks from Germany, aircrafts from Dassult and Lockheed and ships from Italian shipyards - nearly all handarms, rifles, outfits, general military equipment, and mil. transportation vehicles are American (with the exception of some Mercedes off-road vehicles).
Not trying to prove anything, just making it more clear.

[Dooom35796821595]

So we agree it is Greece's fault. Good on German and French companies to profit from it though.

No, we don't agree it's "Greece's fault". First because the military thing is just a part of the problem, not the whole (nor even the worst) of it. Second because it's the fault of Greek government, not of Greek people. And third because those who profit from the misery of others are definitely more than guilty.

No, it's not Greeces fault, just the multiple democratic governments elected by the people who keep screwing up. And the people of more sensible nations should foot their bill because they want their money back.

Now with Russia growing crazy we can not afford to have a disarmed Greece, better a military American puppet than a disarmed Greece.

The crazy ones are much more the USA than Russia, and being a US puppet is the worst possible fate. Europe should stop being USA's puppet in its new cold war with Russia, stop imposing sanctions on Russia and supporting the fascists in power in Kiev, and quit NATO. But that's another debate anyway.

Are you high? No wait, of course you are. You probably support russia or something, right?

[Camelza]

No, we don't agree it's "Greece's fault". First because the military thing is just a part of the problem, not the whole (nor even the worst) of it. Second because it's the fault of Greek government, not of Greek people. And third because those who profit from the misery of others are definitely more than guilty.

No, it's not Greeces fault, just the multiple democratic governments elected by the people who keep screwing up. And the people of more sensible nations should foot their bill because they want their money back.

Are you hinting that there are more sensible nations and less sensible nations? If so, which is the most sensible and the least sensible?

[Minoa]

The Eurogroup will have to make more concessions if they are to retain the trust of the people. They need to now how much Greek originally took out and compare with how much they already paid. If they at least already paid back how much they originally took out (as interest) then I do not see an issue with just letting the debt go.

This is why interest rates are a grey area.

[Slakonian]

No, we don't agree it's "Greece's fault". First because the military thing is just a part of the problem, not the whole (nor even the worst) of it. Second because it's the fault of Greek government, not of Greek people. And third because those who profit from the misery of others are definitely more than guilty.

No, it's not Greeces fault, just the multiple democratic governments elected by the people who keep screwing up. And the people of more sensible nations should foot their bill because they want their money back.

The crazy ones are much more the USA than Russia, and being a US puppet is the worst possible fate. Europe should stop being USA's puppet in its new cold war with Russia, stop imposing sanctions on Russia and supporting the fascists in power in Kiev, and quit NATO. But that's another debate anyway.

Are you high? No wait, of course you are. You probably support russia or something, right?

So anyone who supports Russia is high? I know that it's both sides fault on the Donbass conflict but NO the media propaganda says is only Russia's fault.

We will see coming winter how EASTERN EUROPE passes without Russian gas hmmm? Easier said by Americans and western europeans that we have "nothing to worry about" but we do. Anyway that's another debate but you deserved an answer

[Dooom35796821595]

No, it's not Greeces fault, just the multiple democratic governments elected by the people who keep screwing up. And the people of more sensible nations should foot their bill because they want their money back.

Are you hinting that there are more sensible nations and less sensible nations? If so, which is the most sensible and the least sensible?

It's more of a more sensible then others, like the difference between digging in and out of holes and the ones who just keep digging.

[Teemant]

The Eurogroup will have to make more concessions if they are to retain the trust of the people. They need to now how much Greek originally took out and compare with how much they already paid. If they at least already paid back how much they originally took out (as interest) then I do not see an issue with just letting the debt go.

This is why interest rates are a grey area.

Retain the trust of the people? You know that Eurogrup which constis of other eurozone finance ministers do have to think about people who elected them. They can't destroy their countries (and people who live them) to save Greece only.

[New Luckyland]

I hope this question isn't a hijack.

Who do I write to if I want to persuade the EU to cut Greece some slack? I'm a British citizen and with the "Brexit" referendum in the works I reckon this is one of the few time my voice might carry some weight.

[Laerod]

Well then you should not have spent the money on the military.

I definitely agree with that. But you know who they buy their weapons from, right ? France and Germany. Oddly, cutting military spending has never been among the demands of the Troika. Yet another proof, if more were required, that the Troika's purpose never was helping Greece, but helping themselves.

Don't lie:

The package of the three institutions and President of the EG means more social fairness:

• by targeting support to the most vulnerable, for instance through a guaranteed minimum income scheme,
• by making sure that the efforts required from everyone are proportionate to their income,
• by targeting cuts in areas which do not affect the average wallets of the average citizens, such as through defence cuts.
• We were asking for cuts in the defence budget and I think we are totally right.
• More social fairness by challenging vested interests, such as removing favourable tax treatments for ship-owners. It took some time if not hours to convince the Greek government – I had to do the job of the Greek government to impose less favourable tax treatment for ship-owners, although this is common sense and in line with tax justice.
• The package means more social fairness by fighting corruption. Ordinary people are not those who are corrupt. Others are. We have to fight against corruption if we want to be credible.
• More social fairness by supporting more transparency and efficiency of the public administration, including an independent tax administration. Who could be against an independent tax administration? This is the normal rule in all European countries. The same rule has to be applied to Greece and the government agrees to that undertaking.

Once more, we were the ones pushing for these elements. Our offers of technical assistance have not been entirely taken up.

Emphasis mine.

[Camelza]

Are you hinting that there are more sensible nations and less sensible nations? If so, which is the most sensible and the least sensible?

It's more of a more sensible then others, like the difference between digging in and out of holes and the ones who just keep digging.

Are they just keep digging because that's their destiny, have a predisposition for digging, or because there is someone pointing a gun at them and force them to keep digging?
You know what, I'm not going to discuss in such an idiotic manner, so let me set some things strait; Nations are just social constructs, all people from the western world act in pretty much the same manner when dealing with crises and all capitalist countries have in some point in their history failed at economics, deal with it. The German government wasn't better when they entered an economic crisis, neither was the American one. It's not the peoples' fault, it's the economic system's fault and only partially the political system's too. And no, I'm not advocating for capitalism's replacement, I'm merely pointing out that the whole economic system is inherently prone to injustice and there is no reason to put a blame on a nationality for the economic system's failures.

[Kelinfort]

This is where dollar diplomacy would be really handy for the US or Russia. Either country would be spending peanuts for huge influence in a strategically important region, with a nation that has quite the equipped and well paid military. Russia has suffered from EU and American sanctions and its pocketbook has been hurt. But to loan Greece the money or just give it to them would be a great geopolitical maneuver.

[CTALNH]

This is where dollar diplomacy would be really handy for the US or Russia. Either country would be spending peanuts for huge influence in a strategically important region, with a nation that has quite the equipped and well paid military. Russia has suffered from EU and American sanctions and its pocketbook has been hurt. But to loan Greece the money or just give it to them would be a great geopolitical maneuver.

Turkey is already trying that.

[Kelinfort]

This is where dollar diplomacy would be really handy for the US or Russia. Either country would be spending peanuts for huge influence in a strategically important region, with a nation that has quite the equipped and well paid military. Russia has suffered from EU and American sanctions and its pocketbook has been hurt. But to loan Greece the money or just give it to them would be a great geopolitical maneuver.

Turkey is already trying that.

Why are they? Greek and Turkish relations never have been amiable to begin with. So I guess this would help that, but I don't see how they would benefit beyond relaxing irredentist sentiment in Greece.

[Laerod]

This is where dollar diplomacy would be really handy for the US or Russia. Either country would be spending peanuts for huge influence in a strategically important region, with a nation that has quite the equipped and well paid military. Russia has suffered from EU and American sanctions and its pocketbook has been hurt. But to loan Greece the money or just give it to them would be a great geopolitical maneuver.

Except the current government is proving they'll accept payments but won't deliver anything in return.

[Teemant]

This is where dollar diplomacy would be really handy for the US or Russia. Either country would be spending peanuts for huge influence in a strategically important region, with a nation that has quite the equipped and well paid military. Russia has suffered from EU and American sanctions and its pocketbook has been hurt. But to loan Greece the money or just give it to them would be a great geopolitical maneuver.

Except the current government is proving they'll accept payments but won't deliver anything in return.

Next day Greece might be buying new missile systems from Russia with money USA gave them.

[Chestaan]

Blaming austerity for an economic crisis is like an alcoholic blaming sobriety for his hangover.

If one considers low growth to be part of an economic crisis then it is justified.

[Kelinfort]

Except the current government is proving they'll accept payments but won't deliver anything in return.

Next day Greece might be buying new missile systems from Russia with money USA gave them.

Which is why this is a better deal for Russia as SYRIZA has shown its willingness to side with the Russian government.

[Chestaan]

Next day Greece might be buying new missile systems from Russia with money USA gave them.

Which is why this is a better deal for Russia as SYRIZA has shown its willingness to side with the Russian government.

To be fair, if I was in charge of Greece I would take money from Satan himself if it meant the people would have a better life.

[Laerod]

Next day Greece might be buying new missile systems from Russia with money USA gave them.

Which is why this is a better deal for Russia as SYRIZA has shown its willingness to side with the Russian government.

Has it though? I mean, Syriza has shown its willingness to agree to terms with the Troika. Or not. Or yes. Or not. What?

[Qart chadast]

Help the Greek people.

[Arkolon]

Which is why this is a better deal for Russia as SYRIZA has shown its willingness to side with the Russian government.

To be fair, if I was in charge of Greece I would take money from Satan himself if it meant the people would have a better life.

Doesn't this attitude trivialise the fact that other countries in New Europe have living standards, social coverage, disposable incomes, and corrupt governments worse than Greece has it, even today?

[Camelza]

Turkey is already trying that.

Why are they? Greek and Turkish relations never have been amiable to begin with. So I guess this would help that, but I don't see how they would benefit beyond relaxing irredentist sentiment in Greece.

It could change everything, If the Turks control through, ie: a common econopmic treaty between the two countries, the sea route of both Marmara and the Aegean, it would benefit them greatly, since they would be the bigger partner in such a trade alliance. Currently Greece has no reason to accept any such treaties, the Greek government's loyalty lies to the united European Economy ...so far. If the variables change, so do the rules and the trade partners. I'm just speculating though, this post contains no proven facts.

[Camelza]

Which is why this is a better deal for Russia as SYRIZA has shown its willingness to side with the Russian government.

Has it though? I mean, Syriza has shown its willingness to agree to terms with the Troika. Or not. Or yes. Or not. What?

*To agree to reasonable terms.